Dreaming Animals

[peppy]

I was just watching my twitching cat sleeping when a thought came to me. It's been proven that cats and dogs dream... but do they lucid dream? Does anyone think that cat's and dogs know when their dreaming or do u not think it is possible. Please give reasons.

[Oneironaught]

I don't think it's possible. I say that because of the fact that most animals are generally considered to not be "conscious" in the same sense that we are. They are believed to not have the power of reflection or self-awareness that we do. They are also believed to not have the same powers of time comprehension, living only in the present. To dream lucidly, one must be able to reflect on present reality and understand time.

[Red XIII]

I agree with GH. I highly doubt animals have the mental capacity to lucid dream.

[Redrivertears]

Hey there, I'm actually of the opinion that animals go through life much as we go through dreams. They have some consciousness, but not a lot, and mostly just react to circumstances and events much like we do in dreams. Early man would've been the same, in my mind. But through language, we gained the ability to symbolise things, which allowed us to put more structure and order in our world and get a better grasp of it. The more we symbolise things, the more we gain consciousness. Image a concept like "Black is the opposite of white", this would be extremely difficult to explain to someone when all you have is your sensory input (images, sounds, feelings). With language, we gained the ability to add relationships to concepts, that we didn't have before. Representing black and white is easy in imagery. But representing 'is opposite to', is almost impossible. So language allows us to expand our consciousness to ever newer degrees. Can animals do this? Maybe they have their own systems of symbolism. But for the most part, I'd be inclined to say no, which would mean that not only would they be unable to 'lucid dream', they'd actually be unable to 'lucid' wake -Redrivertears-

[Serith]

I read something interesting about this, in Stephen LaBerge's book Lucid Dreaming. As part of an explanation of why dreams are so hard to recall, he said that we learn what dreams are by talking to other people, and since animals can't do that, they wouldn't even know the difference between dreams and reality when they're awake. If this is true, it makes sense that animals couldn't lucid dream, because it's unlikely animals could recognize a dream while asleep if they couldn't while awake.

[Abra]

Who says language is the only way to recognize a dream? Dogs sleep in a spot, they dream that they are in the yard, they wake up in the spot they slept in. I'd like to think they aren't stupid enough to believe that they just magically teleported there. I think after a while they'd recognize a correlation between sleeping and "being somewhere else," as in, dreaming. What I'm trying to say is that there are ways to overcome the language barrier--it just takes more time. Also, I'm only talking about dogs here. Dogs have proven to us that they are pretty smart. Reptiles, small mammals, fish... Their brains are too small to comprehend much else aside from eating, mating, and fleeing. If my dog can tell the difference between his stuffed animals and my cousin's, and can tell the difference between a can of peas and a can of dog food (before opening), and can tell the difference between "I'm taking a bath," and "You're taking a bath," then I'm willing to bet they can also tell the difference between dreaming and reality (but probably not to the degree that we can). I doubt dogs could lucid dream 'like a pro,' but low level lucidity probably does occur, just very, very rarely (rarer than the spontaneous LDs of humans, no doubt). I mean, honestly, we have so many cues that we are dreaming. Altered speech, malfunctioning machines, public situations, and altered text are among the biggest dream signs in humans. Dogs don't use speech, recognize text, or use lightswitches/computers/etc. What could act as their dream sign? Moving away from dogs, dolphins are pretty damn smart. They even have more cerebral folding than us! Studies report that they not only know that the dolphin in the mirror isn't real, but that it is their own reflection! This knowledge is shared with no other animals... Except us. So yeah, they might have the intelligence for lucid dreaming. Pity is, they don't dream. D=

[Jdeadevil]

Could you imagine sharing dreams with your pet dog and talking to him and understanding him? It would remind me of 'Zelda: Twilight Princess' for some reason, unless it was really silly like Dr. Whatshisface who talks to animals, I'm saying if the dream had the same atmosphere as a legendary game like "Final Fantasy X" and as said before: "Zelda: Twilight Princess" and maybie "Final Fantasy 7" or "Final Fantasy 8". I'm going off on one. Remember the scene where Link first meets the dude with red eyes who teaches you secret moves? Think of that scene, he turns from a wolf and into a skeliton, I was thinking, that is probably what the dream atmosphere would be like. But saying all this you could doubtfully meat your 'dream guide', I have read somewhere on this forum that someone got attacked by an animal (I forgot, sorry) and it ended up being its 'dream guide'. It reminded me of what I had in mind, and yes I'v been holding onto the thought for quite some time, just wanted to share my opinion with whoever is reading this. I hope someone replies to what I'v just said (to prove they've read it).

[Redrivertears]

Hey there, Didnt mean to amply that language is the only way to recognise a dream. In fact, I don't even think language is a way to recognise a dream at all. What language does do, is expand our consciousness. Not because it is language, but because it allows us to get more of a grip on the world, order it, structure it, symbolise new concepts. That's the consciousness-expanding quality of any symbolic system, of which language is simply the one most known to us. Can animals do this? I think yes, to a degree, so I'm inclined to agree with you, to a degree. We certainly know cats and dogs and other animals can learn, which is more then a simple 'reaction' to an event, and would in fact require some sort of low level consciousness, in my mind. Would an animal know the difference between waking and dreaming? Maybe. More likely, in my mind, an animal would be very unlikely to even remember its dreams, since the act of remembering requires a great deal of consciousness. Most humans don't really remember their dreams neither, why would we expect animals to do better on that aspect. They're likely less conscious overall then we are, therefor even less likely to even remember their dreams. Sure, they do dream, but when they wake up... do they have any inclination that they dreamed at all? Any sort of dream-skill, be it recall, lucidity, dreamcontrol, all seems to require a certain degree of 'heightened consciousness'. We have that 'heigthened consciousness' through the symbolic system we deviced to structure the world around us (language, in our case). Assuming animals do not have this to the same degree that we do, we can therefor also assume that they'd be less likely to remember their dreams, to control their dreams, and far less likely to be lucid. Now flipping this around, we go by the assumption that dreaming and sleeping is a state of reduced consciousness for us. A state where our consciousness is far less active and far less prevalent. Now if we assume that animals are in general less conscious then we are, we could make the hypothesis that animals would go through life pretty much like we go through dreams (though perhaps low level lucid dreams would compare better, as, by your own example, animals can learn, which does require a fair amount of consciousness). -Redrivertears-

[Abra]

What influences me most in your post is the mentioning of remembrance. There's no real way to determine how well an animal remembers, and remembering dreams consistently takes concious effort... At least in adults. Children seem to awaken with dreams fresh in their minds. Adults lose the interest over time as the importance of reality takes over. Many people remember their dreams without concious effort. Before I became a lucid dreamer, I'd still have vivid dreams that I remember naturally. These would only occur once every week or so (but more often as a child!). Children don't have real world problems to stress or distract them from their dreams, so they retain the ability to naturally remember their dreams until they mature and these difficulties arise. Dogs never mature into a real-world form. They are like the stress-free children. So I'd expect them to naturally remember their dreams, too. But consistent recall? Highly unlikely. As you brought up, they do not have the "higher conciousness" to concentrate on such an effort. Lack of consistent recall would stunt any naturally occuring lucid dreams.

[Redrivertears]

Hey, Overall, I think memory can be correlated to how much conscious attention we paid to what we're trying to remember. Trying to remember what you ate for breakfast last week is much easier if you were paying really close attention to the taste of your breakfast, then if you were stressed and had your thoughts on work, but that would likely still be easier then if you were drunk all week, which would still be easier then if you were in a coma all week (though I guess in the last you wouldn't have had breakfast ) Kids probably have an easier time remembering dreams exactly because they pay more attention to them, being less stressed about other things. And animals certainly seem capable to chosing to pay attention to one thing and ignoring another. Though I guess that begs the question, would animals chose to pay attention to their dreams? Or would their other drives simply overwhelm any desire to do so? We could even wonder if there'd be a difference between an animal living free (who has to gather its own food, defend its territory, and what not), and one living in captivity such as in a zoo (who doesn't really have to do anything). Would the second dream more? -Redrivertears-

[Oneironaught]

Dogs sleep in a spot, they dream that they are in the yard, they wake up in the spot they slept in. I'd like to think they aren't stupid enough to believe that they just magically teleported there. As I pointed out, the understanding of time is an important distinction between Human understanding and lesser intelligence. Just as we normally disregard and are completely unaware of the instant scene changes and sudden teleportations of our normal dreams, an animal (most - at least to our understanding) lives their lives in this manner. Dreams would be only another part of their continuum of consciousness. No gap would be perceived. Pity is, they don't dream. D= To my knowledge, all mammals are believed to dream. If I'm wrong please correct me.

[Abra]

Gh, I thought people in this thread were closed minded for thinking that dogs could not perceive a difference between waking and dream. Perhaps I am the closed-minded one for thinking they could! I was under the impression that dolphins did not dream because they are never fully asleep (they have to voluntarily breathe), and that only one hemisphere of the brain undergoes sleep-like EEG activity at a time. But the EEG activity known as REM does exist, just in half the brain at a time. Which leads me to wonder if dreaming is actually possible when one part of the brain is awake, and the other asleep. I browsed a variety of sources, but the results were inconclusive. It appears that the idea that dolphins don't have REM has been disproven, but the idea that they can dream with their unique system of sleep has not been researched conclusively (I have not seen anything confirming a dream state, but I have seen pages that condemn it).

[Oneironaught]

I was under the impression that dolphins did not dream because they are never fully asleep (they have to voluntarily breathe), and that only one hemisphere of the brain undergoes sleep-like EEG activity at a time. But the EEG activity known as REM does exist, just in half the brain at a time. Which leads me to wonder if dreaming is actually possible when one part of the brain is awake, and the other asleep. I browsed a variety of sources, but the results were inconclusive. It appears that the idea that dolphins don't have REM has been disproven, but the idea that they can dream with their unique system of sleep has not been researched conclusively (I have not seen anything confirming a dream state, but I have seen pages that condemn it). As I admitted, I'm not positive about that. But I have always been under the impression that all mammals dreamt. However, your point about the fact that dolphins do have to surface to breathe raises a very valid question.

[Abra]

It means that they do not undergo sleep paralysis, at the very least. :O I just thought of a short story regarding consciousness and such, spurred by this thread. Imagine some NASA sub organization finally creating a radio signal powerful enough to reach a 360 degree blast through space. So they send their message, and they are answered... By bees. They reply back to us in a similar signal, stating that they are very angry about the afflictions we have caused them (Colony Collapse Disorder, which some believe is caused by cell phone/radio wave radiation), but would be obliged to make amends with us. The alternative is our massacre, or something of the like. The idea is that the brain has nothing to do with the spirit of consciousness, but it is only the manager of output. Through immense cooperation and evolution, the bees can surpass any human talent, making them an actual threat. Ah, never mind. It was a good sci-fi thought while it lasted. xD

[lagunagirl]

i dont mean to be rude, but what's the point of knowing anyway? it probably wouldn't change anything unless dream sharing were real (which I'm not sure if it's real or not)

[Jdeadevil]

Hey buddy, it's called Research! (No Offence)

[ParadigmShift]

I don't really think they can LD for reasons above. Anyway, I just want to say, I love it when my dog wakes up from a dream and looks at me with a confused "what the HELL just happened?!" face. HAHAHAH

[peppy]

Thanks for the reply guys, I think I'm starting to lean towards the "they cant lucid dream" side cos u guys have pretty much convinced me. Although we'll never really know for sure... or will we?