Where does the subconscious reside?

[Howie]

I am not all that familiar with the intricate regions of the brain. I do know the major regions I think. The brainstemthe, diencephalon, cerebellum and the cerebrum. But I am curious to know where that subconscious is suppose to be in your brain.

[LewisM]

I dont believe there is a processor in the brain called the subconscious. Perhaps if you wanted one, you could call it wherever the long-term memories are stored?

[Syntex]

Actually thats a big controversy. I mean the minds location. Nobody can prove where memory, or anything is, only its output and input of it. My personal philosophy is that the mind doesn't have origin in the brain, the brain is simply a physical display of the mind in action. It just doesn't make sense to me that such funtions as 100% perfect memory(for those who have photographic memories) can reside in a defined amount of space. Nor that the brain could create a whole alternate universe reality, when having only so many parts active... and an X-box with just as much transisters can only create a 3D world on a flat screen. Simply said, the mind as a whole does not equal the sums of it's parts (the brain). However thats just my opinion, i'm just saying they haven't proven where anythign is in the brain, only its output and input. The subconscious is actually a huge catagory of things. The conscious mind and subconscious mind are not seperate they are one in the same, we only seperate them for clarity of function. It would be like dividing the color blue into different shades, not like having two different colors completely. Hope that helps, -Daniel

[Howie]

Thank you both for your replies. It is just so odd to know something is there yet not know where it is. Or at least we lable it to be there. Syntex. Never had I thought down those lines. Great theory! Originally posted by Syntex+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Syntex)</div> Simply said, the mind as a whole does not equal the sums of it's parts (the brain). [/b] And that it does not make sense for it to reside in a defined amount of space!! > Could this give rise to more probabilty of an astral plane or dream sharing <!--QuoteBegin-syntex The subconscious is actually a huge catagory of things. The conscious mind and subconscious mind are not seperate they are one in the same, we only seperate them for clarity of function. It would be like dividing the color blue into different shades, not like having two different colors completely. Having you said that you would think they would work in concert with one another better than they do. Or more likely they can and we don't know how to harness that ability. I have this in my profile. By Robert Monroe. How true it is. To consider consciousness by itself is entirely undemanding. There is nothing to describe. An attempt to account for it in context, however, forces the construction of ever shifting, elaborate adventures of thought.[/b]

[Syntex]

EXACTLY

[Howie]

Just some information I looked up on the subconscious. The Subconscious Mind The subconscious mind takes up the remaining 88% of our brain's capacity, and could be compared to a massive computer system that stores all of the information regarding our location, situation, feelings etc. It controls our Autonomic Nervous System such as our heart beat, breathing, organs and glands - in other words all of the things we do not have to think about. The subconscious mind has no reasoning power, and cannot reject anything that it is told. The subconscious mind has a perfect memory. In fact if you were to merely glance at the face of a passer by in a crowd, your subconscious mind would be able to recall every detail regarding that person such as his clothes, facial lines or wrinkles, everything that you saw. You may have to do some searching to find this information, but be assured that it would be there, even years later. Many Police Forces now use hypnotism to bring these memories to the forefront of a witness's mind. As mentioned earlier, the conscious mind constantly refers to it's counterpart for information. When a person is writing a word on a piece of paper, the subconscious mind will attempt to locate the correct spelling and then pass that information to the conscious mind so that it can instruct the muscles in the hand to act accordingly. If a child constantly misspells a certain word, it is likely that, as the child grows older, the incorrect spelling will always be used. This is because the subconscious mind has recorded the incorrectly spelt word and has no way of knowing that it has been misinformed. In effect, the subconscious mind is like a computer program that runs our body for us. It never sleeps and will continue to runs it's program, such as digesting food, maintaining the body, healing cuts and bruises etc. Whilst in a trance state, the subconscious mind will accept any suggestion it receives without question. It must be remembered however that is a suggestion is not conducive with the moral code of the subconscious, or if it is perceived as a threat, then there is a likelihood that the conscious mind will reawaken to analyse the situation accordingly.

[Joseph_Stalin]

Is there any reason why we cannot not instantly recall any of this information at will? It would be extremely interesting if possible (even at minute levels)...

[Yume]

In my opinion since the subconcious mind has perfect memory it has no constant size. It's size = X. This is because infinitual information can be put in it.

[Syntex]

I believe the main reason we don't remember as much as we should is for two reasons. First off, ever since we were born we've pretty much been taught that the only way to remember something is to repeat it over several times. We've been told that we forget things, and so we do. Basically social conditioning has caused us a big problem, in that it teaches us that our memory is physical in the brain and therefore decays with time. Secondly, There little output for the mind to show you memories. Unless we were able to reExperience the memory by hallucinating or dreaming or otherwise, it's hard for the subconscous mind trying to show you a memory, when you can't see it or hear it... or can but very fantly. Much like having a computer with a very poorly light monitor that can't display or sound out information on file. Anyone of us could have perfect memory if we could enable a feedback system and remove all the years of conditioning telling us that we can't remember and trying to undo all those bad habits of forgetting. NOT EASY... but if you could just fix one of those, you'd be able to remember anything you wanted. -Daniel

[Howie]

Originally posted by Joseph_Stalin Is there any reason why we cannot not instantly recall any of this information at will? It would be extremely interesting if possible (even at minute levels)... I think Syntex has given a preety sound reason for that! Thanks! I have always been facinated (or envious) of people who have a Photographic memory. Now how did that come about? Personaly I doubt that has to do with social condition in that case.

[Kaniaz]

(approximately)

[Wicked]

Actually, Syntax, the brain is a lot more complex and intricate than any machine or computer we can construct at present. There are literally billions of neurons in our brain (IIRC), they're naturally more efficient at transferring information, and as to the supposedly small size of the brain - its curves greatly increase its surface area, and thus probably it capacity to store information. So our brain has enough place to store our personality and sunconsciousness, more than enough actually, since we use only 10% of our brain's capacity (IIRC). I also disagree with you on the topic of memory - it can't be social conditioning that causes it. There are people with photographic memory out there. How come they exist? Furthermore, why aren't there any speculations on this matter within the scientific community? Anyway, the real reason, IMHO, is that our conscious mind has limited "processing power" - we would be overwhelmed if every single image we saw, sound we heard, feelings etc. were stored in the conscious rather than the subconscious mind, research shows that the efficiency of the brain sharply decreases if a person is doing two tasks simultaneously, what would've happened if we had to hold thousands or millions of impressions at the same time? As to why can't we acess the subconscious at will - it's a defensive mechanism. The subconscious usually contains contens that are harmful and unpleasant to the individual. As to the topic itself, I doubt that subconsciousness has some kind of specifically defined physical location in the brain. It's not something as functional or as sharply defined as vision or coordination - it's only a facet of our personality, which is the conglomeration of all the information we absorb since birth (plus a little bit of genetics). So no, it won't be as easy to point out. I'd say the pic Kaniaz posted is right on the spot.

[Kaniaz]

Originally posted by Wicked since we use only 10% of our brain's capacity (IIRC). Wrong.

[Wicked]

Originally posted by Kaniaz+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kaniaz)</div> <!--QuoteBegin-Wicked since we use only 10% of our brain's capacity (IIRC). Wrong.[/b] I checked it out, and it appears you are right. I stand corrected.

[bradybaker]

You guys are thinking about this the wrong way. The brain is not a tool to be used, the brain uses you as a tool.

[Howie]

Originally posted by Kaniaz (approximately) I got my results back showing actual results of my brain.

[Tron]

[quote] It just doesn't make sense to me that such funtions as 100% perfect memory(for those who have photographic memories) can reside in a defined amount of space. Nor that the brain could create a whole alternate universe reality, when having only so many parts active... and an X-box with just as much transisters can only create a 3D world on a flat screen. One theory is that our neurons fire electrical messages at each other and the interference pattern sets up a holographic memory. Holographs have an amazing capacity to store information. The slightest change in an angle at which the neurons hit each other allows a totally different memory to be created.

[Syntex]

Originally posted by Wicked Actually, Syntax, the brain is a lot more complex and intricate than any machine or computer we can construct at present. There are literally billions of neurons in our brain (IIRC), they're naturally more efficient at transferring information, and as to the supposedly small size of the brain - its curves greatly increase its surface area, and thus probably it capacity to store information. So our brain has enough place to store our personality and sunconsciousness, more than enough actually, since we use only 10% of our brain's capacity (IIRC). I also disagree with you on the topic of memory - it can't be social conditioning that causes it. There are people with photographic memory out there. How come they exist? Furthermore, why aren't there any speculations on this matter within the scientific community? Anyway, the real reason, IMHO, is that our conscious mind has limited \"processing power\" - we would be overwhelmed if every single image we saw, sound we heard, feelings etc. were stored in the conscious rather than the subconscious mind, research shows that the efficiency of the brain sharply decreases if a person is doing two tasks simultaneously, what would've happened if we had to hold thousands or millions of impressions at the same time? As to why can't we acess the subconscious at will - it's a defensive mechanism. The subconscious usually contains contens that are harmful and unpleasant to the individual. As to the topic itself, I doubt that subconsciousness has some kind of specifically defined physical location in the brain. It's not something as functional or as sharply defined as vision or coordination - it's only a facet of our personality, which is the conglomeration of all the information we absorb since birth (plus a little bit of genetics). So no, it won't be as easy to point out. I'd say the pic Kaniaz posted is right on the spot. Actually it's SyntEx, but thanks for the counter arguement, which leads me to my next points. Your right, the brain has trillions of trillions of connections, and yes it can store large amounts of memory. My problem with this is exactly this, if we can argue that one thing may not have physical placement in the mind, such as consciousness or the unproved ability of Mutual Dreaming, then the whole mind and all it's functions lose physical origin. For instance, if it's true that we have a soul, then it can be equally true that that soul contains our mind and thereby contaning our memories. I know for sure they haven't defined or located or even been able to explain consciousness in physical terms, it's an anomoly. As for you second statement of those with photographic memories. I love that point, since they prove that we humans have the capacity to all do that. You are forgeting that along with social conditioning I stated if you have a good system of getting your subconscious to display things to you, you can easily "see" or access that memory. I'm suggesting that photographic memory people simply have a hightened visualization system, to be able to actually see their memories. Social conditioning is an obvious reason for forgetting stuff, it simply has to be a factor for some of us. Because by mere suggestion, you can cause yourself to forget things, hence hypnotists who tell you to forget everything when you wake up. Thirdly you say that the conscious mind would be overwhelmed, well your right since the conscious mind doesn't remember anything at all, it can't remember what happened two seconds ago, it always has to go to the sea of unconsciousness to recall something. All it has is active memory, which we're experiencing right now. Thats not a limitation however since we can experience an entire reality around us. The conscious mind can recall any memory without failing to load it, because it was able to fully experience it before. And yes your right, some memories aren't accessable because of a defense mechanism... we're simpy to afraid or shocked by that experience to want to know it consciously again. And yes your right, the conscious mind deteriates when more tasks are given to it simulaniously, but thats what the subconscious mind is for, simply program it to do that task automatically and the conscious effort can go elsewhere. Lastly, I agree with your last statement, yes the subsconsious is most likely not located in one point of mind or brain, but a multitude of social programming, personality, and sure maybe even genetics. It's a big thing, and its definantly not as easy as saying it's here and here, but more likely it's all of this and all of this and some of this. Also Tron, how would we know a blank area (hence empty space) from an actual memory, how would that be marked? -Daniel

[Wicked]

Actually it's SyntEx, but thanks for the counter arguement, which leads me to my next points. Your right, the brain has trillions of trillions of connections, and yes it can store large amounts of memory. My problem with this is exactly this, if we can argue that one thing may not have physical placement in the mind, such as consciousness or the unproved ability of Mutual Dreaming, then the whole mind and all it's functions lose physical origin. For instance, if it's true that we have a soul, then it can be equally true that that soul contains our mind and thereby contaning our memories. I know for sure they haven't defined or located or even been able to explain consciousness in physical terms, it's an anomoly. [/b] Exactly. IF there is a soul, IF out of body experiences are real, IF shared dreams are possible. Can you say with any degree of certainty they are? As for you second statement of those with photographic memories. I love that point, since they prove that we humans have the capacity to all do that. You are forgeting that along with social conditioning I stated if you have a good system of getting your subconscious to display things to you, you can easily \"see\" or access that memory. I'm suggesting that photographic memory people simply have a hightened visualization system, to be able to actually see their memories. Social conditioning is an obvious reason for forgetting stuff, it simply has to be a factor for some of us. Because by mere suggestion, you can cause yourself to forget things, hence hypnotists who tell you to forget everything when you wake up.[/b] That might be a possibility, but social conditioning probably doesn't play such a huge role like you implied in your post. Is it possible to TEACH someone how to use photographic memory? If it's possible to condition people to change their habits, in some cases even their personality, opinions, beliefs (brainwashing), then it shows social conditioning from young age can be \"re-programmed\", so to speak. I never heard it's possible to teach someone photographic memory, although it's possible to acess sunconscious images by using hypnosis. Thirdly you say that the conscious mind would be overwhelmed, well your right since the conscious mind doesn't remember anything at all, it can't remember what happened two seconds ago, it always has to go to the sea of unconsciousness to recall something. All it has is active memory, which we're experiencing right now. Thats not a limitation however since we can experience an entire reality around us. The conscious mind can recall any memory without failing to load it, because it was able to fully experience it before. And yes your right, some memories aren't accessable because of a defense mechanism... we're simpy to afraid or shocked by that experience to want to know it consciously again. And yes your right, the conscious mind deteriates when more tasks are given to it simulaniously, but thats what the subconscious mind is for, simply program it to do that task automatically and the conscious effort can go elsewhere. [/b] Actually, there are THREE levels of Freudian consciousness - the conscious, the near-conscious, and the subconscious. Memories are located in the near-conscious, a level which can be acessed by our conscious at any given time while the subconscious can not. Maybe with some special training it would be possible to acess our memories in the way you suggest. But I hold the opinion that in the absence of social conditioning either way, a human would still grow without the ability to acess his memories freely. Lastly, I agree with your last statement, yes the subsconsious is most likely not located in one point of mind or brain, but a multitude of social programming, personality, and sure maybe even genetics. It's a big thing, and its definantly not as easy as saying it's here and here, but more likely it's all of this and all of this and some of this. -Daniel[/b] So we agree on that point, then. I think we disagree on another point though - I still think the subconsciousness (and personality, memories etc.) are located in our brain, they're just kind of the sum of various tiny parts scattered around the brain. You, so it seems, hold the opinion that the mind originates from a non-biological factor entirely.

[Howie]

I have a couple of things to add. But opon thinking about it I would rather watch from the sidelines. My Ideas are knowhere as deep as to where the discussion is now. A lot of good points!!!!!!

[Syntex]

Essentially all those things, such as Freudian consciousness and other explainations are just that, an explaination. There just theories, no one has proven what consciousness is and how all this has come into play. All I'm describing is just a theory as well, it all depends on what you currently believe in. I could be completely wrong, that the mind has origin other than the brain and you could be wrong as well. And even so we could both be right, it could be part of the brain and metaphysical. Who the hell knows, I'm just trying to state it's a possibility. As for social conditioning, I believe it is a big part in who we are. Think of it as this: If there is a child who is told everyday that he'll never be good enough, that his memory sucks, and that he is dumber than all the kids... inevidably he'll accept that, and there-by become what they've told him he is. And therefore the reverse is true, is someone is given confidence and the right "brainwashing" they'll most likely have alot better memory. I believe those with photographic memories are not easily influenced by social conditioning, because their memory is independent of confidence in one's self, it comes more from their enhanced ability to simply see the memories easily, without restriction. I'll also tell you why I believe the mind is independent of brain functions: What's more hopefull to believe in? That we are just physical and fleeting, our brain is our limitation? or that our minds are not bound by space and time, and that our body is just a vessel? If you believe our minds our physical, there is little hope for you, especially if your right. If you believe our minds are metaphysical, There is much greater hope, and if your wrong, there is no dissapointment...because you'll be dead. False hope sometimes, can be greater than no hope at all. Why believe the brain is physical? If you do, you could be limiting yourself... because the brain is limited. If you believe the brain is not physical, (if your wrong) it won't hurt anything (if your right) you'll be alot less limited, by the parameters of physical means (such as if you believe your memory is physical and decays with time... then your not really helping your memory are you?) Thats just my line of reasoning in it, And if they ever prove our mind is soley in the brain, and can explain exactly how it works, Then I will change my views occordingly. But since right now I have a choice, I choose the metaphysical mind -Daniel

[bradybaker]

Originally posted by Syntex I'll also tell you why I believe the mind is independent of brain functions: What's more hopefull to believe in? That we are just physical and fleeting, our brain is our limitation? or that our minds are not bound by space and time, and that our body is just a vessel? If you believe our minds our physical, there is little hope for you, especially if your right. If you believe our minds are metaphysical, There is much greater hope, and if your wrong, there is no dissapointment...because you'll be dead. False hope sometimes, can be greater than no hope at all. Why believe the brain is physical? If you do, you could be limiting yourself... because the brain is limited. If you believe the brain is not physical, (if your wrong) it won't hurt anything (if your right) you'll be alot less limited, by the parameters of physical means (such as if you believe your memory is physical and decays with time... then your not really helping your memory are you?) Thats just my line of reasoning in it, And if they ever prove our mind is soley in the brain, and can explain exactly how it works, Then I will change my views occordingly. But since right now I have a choice, I choose the metaphysical mind It is exactly this mode of thinking that leads to such mistakes as 'organized religion'. Belief based on utility is the height of selfishness, conceit and intellectual irresponsibilty. However, it is understandable. It's not hard to see why certain individuals choose to abandon all logic and settle on a belief that comforts them. But anyways, my question to you is this; why do you put humans on a pedestal above all else? We are animals, plain and simple. Furthermore, we are made up of the same shit as the computer in front of you, the can of Coke in your fridge, and the dirt on the ground. Mostly carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen with some other stuff sprinkled in for good measure. If we can have special 'metaphysical minds', why can't a bottle of Coke? Because its carbon molecules happen to be arranged in a slightly different manner? The concept is absurd. We are not special, we are not beautiful or unique snowflakes, we are the same decaying organic matter as everything else. If it comforts you, go nuts and add all the meaning you want to our meaningless existence, but just for a second, I beg you, step down from that pedestal upon which you have placed yourself and look at the big picture.

[OpheliaBlue]

Originally posted by bradybaker If we can have special 'metaphysical minds', why can't a bottle of Coke? HAHAHA, it's funny kuz it's true . Earlier today I had other thoughts on this, but whoooooosh they just slipped out. Oh well.

[CT]

Originally posted by bradybaker+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bradybaker)</div> <!--QuoteBegin-Syntex I'll also tell you why I believe the mind is independent of brain functions: What's more hopefull to believe in? That we are just physical and fleeting, our brain is our limitation? or that our minds are not bound by space and time, and that our body is just a vessel? If you believe our minds our physical, there is little hope for you, especially if your right. If you believe our minds are metaphysical, There is much greater hope, and if your wrong, there is no dissapointment...because you'll be dead. False hope sometimes, can be greater than no hope at all. Why believe the brain is physical? If you do, you could be limiting yourself... because the brain is limited. If you believe the brain is not physical, (if your wrong) it won't hurt anything (if your right) you'll be alot less limited, by the parameters of physical means (such as if you believe your memory is physical and decays with time... then your not really helping your memory are you?) Thats just my line of reasoning in it, And if they ever prove our mind is soley in the brain, and can explain exactly how it works, Then I will change my views occordingly. But since right now I have a choice, I choose the metaphysical mind It is exactly this mode of thinking that leads to such mistakes as 'organized religion'. Belief based on utility is the height of selfishness, conceit and intellectual irresponsibilty. However, it is understandable. It's not hard to see why certain individuals choose to abandon all logic and settle on a belief that comforts them. But anyways, my question to you is this; why do you put humans on a pedestal above all else? We are animals, plain and simple. Furthermore, we are made up of the same shit as the computer in front of you, the can of Coke in your fridge, and the dirt on the ground. Mostly carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen with some other stuff sprinkled in for good measure. If we can have special 'metaphysical minds', why can't a bottle of Coke? Because its carbon molecules happen to be arranged in a slightly different manner? The concept is absurd. We are not special, we are not beautiful or unique snowflakes, we are the same decaying organic matter as everything else. If it comforts you, go nuts and add all the meaning you want to our meaningless existence, but just for a second, I beg you, step down from that pedestal upon which you have placed yourself and look at the big picture.[/b] Everyone not agreeing with this man is wrong, and delusional.

[Yume]

Originally posted by bradybaker+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bradybaker)</div> <!--QuoteBegin-Syntex I'll also tell you why I believe the mind is independent of brain functions: What's more hopefull to believe in? That we are just physical and fleeting, our brain is our limitation? or that our minds are not bound by space and time, and that our body is just a vessel? If you believe our minds our physical, there is little hope for you, especially if your right. If you believe our minds are metaphysical, There is much greater hope, and if your wrong, there is no dissapointment...because you'll be dead. False hope sometimes, can be greater than no hope at all. Why believe the brain is physical? If you do, you could be limiting yourself... because the brain is limited. If you believe the brain is not physical, (if your wrong) it won't hurt anything (if your right) you'll be alot less limited, by the parameters of physical means (such as if you believe your memory is physical and decays with time... then your not really helping your memory are you?) Thats just my line of reasoning in it, And if they ever prove our mind is soley in the brain, and can explain exactly how it works, Then I will change my views occordingly. But since right now I have a choice, I choose the metaphysical mind It is exactly this mode of thinking that leads to such mistakes as 'organized religion'. Belief based on utility is the height of selfishness, conceit and intellectual irresponsibilty. However, it is understandable. It's not hard to see why certain individuals choose to abandon all logic and settle on a belief that comforts them. But anyways, my question to you is this; why do you put humans on a pedestal above all else? We are animals, plain and simple. Furthermore, we are made up of the same shit as the computer in front of you, the can of Coke in your fridge, and the dirt on the ground. Mostly carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen with some other stuff sprinkled in for good measure. If we can have special 'metaphysical minds', why can't a bottle of Coke? Because its carbon molecules happen to be arranged in a slightly different manner? The concept is absurd. We are not special, we are not beautiful or unique snowflakes, we are the same decaying organic matter as everything else. If it comforts you, go nuts and add all the meaning you want to our meaningless existence, but just for a second, I beg you, step down from that pedestal upon which you have placed yourself and look at the big picture.[/b] Where you could be wrong is where you have failed. You cannot disprove as well as prove organized religion yet.