Thread: Assigning Lucid Tasks/Rituals to Alleviate Schemas

[split from the September TOTM Thread - Ophelia]

Holy hell I just typed a really long post and the forum ate it. Recap: In the realm of convincing myself to accept new tenants/beliefs/expectations, in and out of dreams, I have found that it is sometimes easier to get yourself to accept what you want, without expressing ANY doubt, if you assign the belief or expectation to a protracted ritual or task, dictating that upon completion of the task the belief will be 'earned', and thus more powerfully ingrained. So, for example, if simply saying aloud, "I no longer believe that I will ever have vision trouble in LDs," doesn't work because doubt sabotages you, it might be easier to accept the new command or rule if you instead dictated that the rule/command/belief/whatever would be in place after you, say, completed a certain task, performed some kind of magical ritual, accomplished some specific significant thing in LD'ing, some list of challenges met, or embodied the vision problem as some kind of entity and then 'defeated' or banished that entity somehow, basically if you can convince yourself you have 'earned' it, it might be easier in the future to say "Well, even though I'm worrying about getting the vision trouble, that worry isn't strong enough to overpower the strength of the ritual I did, so it won't happen anymore." I've never used this in a dream quite like I've described here, but I have used it in waking life with beliefs/goals/discipline type stuff, and if you consciously make the link there is a definite connection between action and thought. I'd be curious if you tried to do something and see what happens.

For example, now that we've talked about it I actually really want to try the very thing I described as unsettling, and I wonder, if I were to tell myself that facing that fear would unlock some extent of ld'ing capacity or even affect my waking consciousness in some positive way, if it very well might once I do the thing?

WOW! You know, I've heard of folks using that idea in waking life too, but it never dawned on me to try it in a lucid dream. What a novel idea, I like your innovative thinking TWM.

So do yo think this ritual should me more or less related to the issue? For example, say I am lucid, and I command a light to come on, or even better, that I can properly work a dimmer switch. Or should it be completely unrelated, like making something appear/disappear, and my reward is awesome lucid vision?

Curious what you think about that.

Basically the point is to figure out something that satisfies the 'voice' of doubt, something that you feel you won't doubt even if the thought of doubting it comes up, so basically it's a matter of whatever you think you can sort of justify in your head as being a worthy level of effort for the goal achieved. I figured out that, for me, a lot of the time that voice of doubt came because I am a sort of high-standards perfectionist with my own abilities/behavior, so the trick (short of completely eradicating that aspect of myself, which I have been working at over a long time) was to come up with something that, basically, made it feel like I was putting forth a significant effort to get what I was pursuing. It also relies partly on a belief in the premise itself, that focused intent tied to ritualistic action is more powerful than the sort of randomly appearing thoughts of doubt, or of losing your vision, so that even if those thoughts pop into your head, there's a 'stronger' force there you can think of as overpowering those thoughts?

So I suspect the ritual itself could be pretty much anything as long as it's something you can genuinely agree with yourself on as being 'enough' or as 'feeling right'. It could be as simple as... creating a locked door or chest, then declaring that when you hunt down the key in your dreams and unlock the door/chest, you'll have 'earned' the change, or perhaps it could be more complex, like trying to consciously create a DC or some sort of monster that directly represents that specific type of doubt you're experiencing, and then battle and defeat that monster or banish it perhaps even talk to it and befriend it. Ultimately it's up to 'you', or rather, it's up to exactly whichever part of you is controlling that voice in your head

Originally Posted by ThisWitheredMan

I've never used this in a dream quite like I've described here, but I have used it in waking life with beliefs/goals/discipline type stuff, and if you consciously make the link there is a definite connection between action and thought. I'd be curious if you tried to do something and see what happens.

I'm interested to hear how this is applied in waking life. What things do you tie together? Do you do this with totally unrelated stuff, like, "If I can eat this entire gallon of Rocky Road, I will never again be afraid of public speaking"?

If so, this sounds like a ritual I can get behind.

Originally Posted by OpheliaBlue

So do yo think this ritual should me more or less related to the issue? For example, say I am lucid, and I command a light to come on, or even better, that I can properly work a dimmer switch. Or should it be completely unrelated, like making something appear/disappear, and my reward is awesome lucid vision?

Yes, it's this idea of making them unrelated that strikes me as novel. I imagine a lot of us have done miniature, short-term little confidence boosters like, "Oh man, my vision's not so hot. Better pull out my'lucid glasses'." (Or rocket shoes, grumble grumble...)

But this idea of completing almost a sort of quest and then granting yourself a permanent ability... that's interesting, especially for those of us who grew up on Final Fantasy. Is this what you mean?

Hahaha I don't think I'd be able to convince myself that eating a whole gallon of ice cream is 'earning' public speaking confidence. To some extent there has to be a little bit of wiggle room where I actually can accept the premise that the one affects the other. I mean in theory it would work if you were capable of that flexibly dictating your beliefs, since public speaking confidence is definitely a matter of belief/expectation. The things I use it for in waking life are a little weird. I want to be a professional writer, so though I'm in school I also have a pretty hefty workload forced upon myself by myself in terms of writing and reading quotas each week. My ability to meet those quotas or not depends largely on belief and conviction, and so I'll use certain things I do as sort of... tie-ins. For example, I go running 30 minutes every few nights, and I'm convinced that the day after a run I'm significantly more productive, efficient, energetic, focused. It's likely that, to some extent, there is a real connection there between the exercise and the sense of energy, but I think I'm getting a lot more juice out of it by abusing the placebo effect, in essence. I've also convinced myself that certain types of meditation are more or less effective for different things despite not really knowing.

In terms of lucid dreaming though, since things are so much more flexible and, generally speaking, simply ANNOUNCING a belief verbally is enough to make it so, I think there's way more you could do here. The fact that you can yell "Clarity now!" to the dream and have it work just by yelling, it doesn't seem far fetched to me to suppose that you could send yourself on dream quests to earn permanent boosts to your awareness, or your likelihood of becoming lucid, or your stability, or whatever else. These things are all mostly a matter of belief/expectation, and rituals with intent are the strongest way to manipulate belief/expectation that I know of.

Autosuggestion is the most basic example of what I'm talking about. By saying "I will have a lucid dream tonight" with enough conviction and repetition and belief, you can make it so. What you're doing is performing a ritual (the speech or the typing, however you express it) with the intent of creating an effect.

Originally Posted by ThisWitheredMan

It's likely that, to some extent, there is a real connection there between the exercise and the sense of energy, but I think I'm getting a lot more juice out of it by abusing the placebo effect, in essence.

Lots of great ideas in there. Thanks for taking the time to write it out.

It's funny when you think about it. To scientists, the "placebo effect" is a major nuisance because it fouls up studies when people taking nothing but a sugar pill spontaneously become healthier. But on the flip side, this means that we have at our disposal a way to become healthier through an act of will and belief. One man's nuisance is another's lucid dreaming (or waking life) power tool.

I think it goes a lot deeper than anyone realizes. What we call the 'placebo effect' is, in my opinion, a direct manipulation of reality. But now we're getting really off topic Maybe split this stuff off?

Originally Posted by ThisWitheredMan

Basically the point is to figure out something that satisfies the 'voice' of doubt, something that you feel you won't doubt even if the thought of doubting it comes up, so basically it's a matter of whatever you think you can sort of justify in your head as being a worthy level of effort for the goal achieved. I figured out that, for me, a lot of the time that voice of doubt came because I am a sort of high-standards perfectionist with my own abilities/behavior, so the trick (short of completely eradicating that aspect of myself, which I have been working at over a long time) was to come up with something that, basically, made it feel like I was putting forth a significant effort to get what I was pursuing. It also relies partly on a belief in the premise itself, that focused intent tied to ritualistic action is more powerful than the sort of randomly appearing thoughts of doubt, or of losing your vision, so that even if those thoughts pop into your head, there's a 'stronger' force there you can think of as overpowering those thoughts?

So I suspect the ritual itself could be pretty much anything as long as it's something you can genuinely agree with yourself on as being 'enough' or as 'feeling right'. It could be as simple as... creating a locked door or chest, then declaring that when you hunt down the key in your dreams and unlock the door/chest, you'll have 'earned' the change, or perhaps it could be more complex, like trying to consciously create a DC or some sort of monster that directly represents that specific type of doubt you're experiencing, and then battle and defeat that monster or banish it perhaps even talk to it and befriend it. Ultimately it's up to 'you', or rather, it's up to exactly whichever part of you is controlling that voice in your head

I personally don't buy it. I can see why you would think it would work. But permanently? Nah. You should move this to it's own thread. It would make for a good discussion.

Originally Posted by Xanous

I personally don't buy it. I can see why you would think it would work. But permanently? Nah. You should move this to it's own thread. It would make for a good discussion.

It won't work precisely because you don't buy it. In the field of manipulating your own beliefs, you first have to believe you are capable of doing so before you are capable of doing so. In the field of manipulating beliefs, anything is possible that you believe is possible

Ophelia! I can't split posts, would you mind splitting the stuff from this little side-discussion into its own thread somewhere?

Originally Posted by ThisWitheredMan

It won't work precisely because you don't buy it. In the field of manipulating your own beliefs, you first have to believe you are capable of doing so before you are capable of doing so. In the field of manipulating beliefs, anything is possible that you believe is possible

Ophelia! I can't split posts, would you mind splitting the stuff from this little side-discussion into its own thread somewhere?

It just seems like we're going in circles. You're still lying to yourself or invoking a belief either way so there will always be a doubt. I find self confidence comes from trial and error and the learning process. But if this works for someone that's great. I'm willing to at least try it in a lucid dream and I'd like to know how it goes for others.

I'm sorry, but some people are "realistic" to some extent. They don't believe they can do anything that people have to work so hard to be able to do easily. It took men since the start of time to master aerodynamics, so some would think that willing themselves to fly is cheating to some extent.

This "placebo" eliminates the thought of cheating. You have earned it.

Thanks Ophelia!

Originally Posted by Xanous

It just seems like we're going in circles. You're still lying to yourself or invoking a belief either way so there will always be a doubt. I find self confidence comes from trial and error and the learning process. But if this works for someone that's great. I'm willing to at least try it in a lucid dream and I'd like to know how it goes for others.

It's not about lying to yourself, per se, but about realizing that EVERYTHING you believe is equivalently a lie you have told yourself. I suppose it requires a complete shift in your fundamental approach to belief/expectation and reality itself in order to be this flexible. All beliefs are, in essence, from the perspective of your conscious awareness, a lie you have told yourself and accepted to be true. ALL of them, even gravity. You can argue till you're blue in the face that gravity is a real thing this and there's tests and experiments that, but ultimately, from the perspective of your conscious awareness, all you really KNOW is that your mind exists, and with this basis you can convince yourself of anything. I'm not sure if I'm getting my point across here, it's kind of hard to explain. The idea is that you realize that since you don't really KNOW anything for certain, your beliefs are flexible tools, not fixed things, that you can do whatever you damn well please with. Self confidence is all in your head, just like doubt. Whatever it takes for you to be able to rearrange and reconfigure what is in your head, WILL WORK. As long as you recognize that ALL beliefs are equally true and false as far as you can ever truly know, you are free to put on and take off whatever belief you please through a process of self-persuasion that basically amounts to, "Well, it COULD be true, there's no ultimate way to prove anything false, because even if I test it out and find it doesn't work, I can fall back on 'well, I didn't believe enough.'"

I agree that it is, to some extent, self-deception, but all belief and conviction is self-deception to that same extent.

Originally Posted by ThisWitheredMan

Thanks Ophelia!



It's not about lying to yourself, per se, but about realizing that EVERYTHING you believe is equivalently a lie you have told yourself. I suppose it requires a complete shift in your fundamental approach to belief/expectation and reality itself in order to be this flexible. All beliefs are, in essence, from the perspective of your conscious awareness, a lie you have told yourself and accepted to be true. ALL of them, even gravity. You can argue till you're blue in the face that gravity is a real thing this and there's tests and experiments that, but ultimately, from the perspective of your conscious awareness, all you really KNOW is that your mind exists, and with this basis you can convince yourself of anything. I'm not sure if I'm getting my point across here, it's kind of hard to explain. The idea is that you realize that since you don't really KNOW anything for certain, your beliefs are flexible tools, not fixed things, that you can do whatever you damn well please with. Self confidence is all in your head, just like doubt. Whatever it takes for you to be able to rearrange and reconfigure what is in your head, WILL WORK. As long as you recognize that ALL beliefs are equally true and false as far as you can ever truly know, you are free to put on and take off whatever belief you please through a process of self-persuasion that basically amounts to, "Well, it COULD be true, there's no ultimate way to prove anything false, because even if I test it out and find it doesn't work, I can fall back on 'well, I didn't believe enough.'"

I agree that it is, to some extent, self-deception, but all belief and conviction is self-deception to that same extent.

Well that sort of sums up all the issues I have with religion but that's for another discussion. lol. Yea I get what you are saying ... "There is no spoon"... that sort of thing. I wonder if this applies to trying to get lucid. If you do XZY during the day you will get lucid at night.

Will do!

EXACTLY! There is no spoon.

And the answer is a resounding YES YES YES regarding your last question. That is exactly how I become lucid so frequently. Primarily I just do the autosuggestion, "I will become lucid in a dream tonight" many times a day, but reality checks also fall under this category, at least for me. Reality checks are just a ritual, because I have NEVER become lucid as a result of doing a reality-check while non-lucid, I always just BECOME lucid and use the reality checks to enhance lucidity/clarity once I already know I am dreaming. Another thing I do involves crystals, moving them and sleeping beside certain types with the conviction that doing so enhances my odds of lucidity.

It's not a 100% game, of course, but based on the frequency with which I become lucid, it's pretty clear that it really doesn't matter WHAT you're doing, as long as you're putting in work with the intent to affect your odds of lucidity.

Originally Posted by ThisWitheredMan

EXACTLY! There is no spoon.

And the answer is a resounding YES YES YES regarding your last question. That is exactly how I become lucid so frequently. Primarily I just do the autosuggestion, "I will become lucid in a dream tonight" many times a day, but reality checks also fall under this category, at least for me. Reality checks are just a ritual, because I have NEVER become lucid as a result of doing a reality-check while non-lucid, I always just BECOME lucid and use the reality checks to enhance lucidity/clarity once I already know I am dreaming. Another thing I do involves crystals, moving them and sleeping beside certain types with the conviction that doing so enhances my odds of lucidity.

It's not a 100% game, of course, but based on the frequency with which I become lucid, it's pretty clear that it really doesn't matter WHAT you're doing, as long as you're putting in work with the intent to affect your odds of lucidity.

Well said! I've always been the same with the RCs. I think that just having the awareness to question if it is a dream is all you need to become lucid. I mean if you do an real intentional RC in a dream you technically were already lucid before the RC because its all about awareness. Plus I feel that doing the same thing over and over again during the day will lead to the same results in a dream because you expectations are geared toward that same outcome. If I plug my nose all day and can't breath then I'm likely not to be able to breath through a plugged nose in a dream.

For me it's the awareness exercises that seem to help a lot but I may incorporate the autosuggestion along side it. I like that idea even though I feel like I'll just be lying to myself. Either way I'm still thinking about lucidity and it will eventually come out in a dream. It's like a the same idea of a mantra when doing MILD or such.

I'm curious to know more about the crystals. Is it just something you carry around as a reminder? I've done similar things. I mad a symbol and sometimes I'll draw it on a post it note at work so that when I look at it I'll remember my awareness or whatever other mental exercise I decide to do.