Thread: Lucid Dreaming Ethics and Rules

I like AirRick's application of the Law of Karma upon what Seeker had to say. It makes me wonder whether if I had access to a wide demographic of Dream Diaries whether I could point out a solid correlation between Moral and Caring behavior and Spiritual Ascension and Etherealization. I suppose I would find that Moral Dreamers would rise Higher to a generally Brighter level of Dream Scenes, where the low lifes would gradually sink into darkness and nightmares.

I don't think it is anything anybody must really learn the hard way. As I have been pointing out, the Higher Dreaming Mind is endlessly pointing out the Way. We don't even need to resort to Dream Interpretation much of the time, as our Dream Guides will tell us what we need to know in almost directly literal terms.

In perhaps my first Spiritual Dream, a Lady appeared to me half way up a very steep and tiered Mountain. She looked at me and told me, "Only those at the bottom cannot go to the top". So all it takes is just one small grain of morality to keep us off the absolute bottom, and then we can have some hope that we can rise progressively upward. But look at some of the entries on this Web Page, and it is easy to suppose that this Sand of Morality might just be as rare as diamonds.

I have to say, I enjoy being endorsed by somebody with as dense of a knowledge bank as you, Leo. Thanks.

I overall didn't think about trying to live a moral life, and that's usually when ironically, I was most moral as a byproduct. Trying to be good usually makes me worse. The more you try to be good, the more you affirm to yourself that you are indeed not good.

The assertion that I should be only entices me to be offended of the idea that I am not good enough. And trying to live a good life is ultimately futile, I believe. Just note that I say "trying." A lot of it is aimed in pleasing others. When I tried to be, it got me in a tie between having self-respect or getting other's respect at the expense on my own. The more I try to be good, the more the "ying/yang" in me begins to argue and conflict. It only arouses more conflict.

Neither does it mean I try to be bad. Stopping the motivation to be good does not mean being bad by default. Like when Lucius said morals are relative...doesn't necessarily mean we go commit crimes and rape and murder people. It's merely an inquisitive introspection of why things are the way they are. That's why I say I'm open to being immoral, but do not insist on being that way.

t really depends on your terminology. And I know lot of people don't agree to this type of opinion.

I finally read this whole thread. I could have spent that time doing all my homework, but... nah.

Here's something else to consider: I haven't had a nightmare since I was a small child, but that doesn't mean that I haven't had bad dreams. Until about a year ago my dreams were often plagued with terrible things. You know, murder, violence, lying, stealing. However, I was the one doing all the bad things. My victims were out to get me in the first place, but the dreams were still violent and vulgar, and while these things were happening my dream mood was excited, happy. I felt strong.

Now you all think I'm crazy, but let me explain a little more. I'm very in touch with every corner of my concious mind, and I know that I'm not violent at all. I've come to the conclusion that during this point in my life, my dream self served as a foil for my waking self. Everything that I hated while awake, I became while I slept. That, and my mind was warped by video games.

I don't dream like that anymore.

Now, hopefully this example has shed some light on the argument. I've never had a violent thought in a lucid dream, nor have I ever pursued sex. I just have better things to do. But, supposing I did, who is to say that I would be doing any more damage to my subconcious than it would do to itself? If someone has very troubled dreams, is it ok to control them in order to reprogram the undoubtedly troubled subconcious? Now, surely the word "reprogram" is sending up red flags for you, leo, but consider it. If a conciously calm and collected person has a subconcious that offers him violent and debaucherous dreams, can LDing be a way to convince the subconcious that there's something else, something better to think about? I say with relative confidence that it can be done peacefully, without a rift between the concious and subconcious. I've already experimented with reprogramming my personality, namely in the way of eliminating fear. I've had great results, any my subconcious shows no sign of rejecting the new personality. Should I continue? Can dream control be a way to improve one's subconcious and bring peace to all levels of his mind? Is there something inherently vulgar about a mind that's been mastered by that concious 10%, or is it possible to influence, without stepping on the toes of, the subconcious?

Originally posted by AirRick101
I have to say, I enjoy being endorsed by somebody with as dense of a knowledge bank as you, Leo. *Thanks.

I overall didn't think about trying to live a moral life, and that's usually when ironically, I was most moral as a byproduct. *Trying to be good usually makes me worse. *The more you try to be good, the more you affirm to yourself that you are indeed not good.

The assertion that I should be only entices me to be offended of the idea that I am not good enough. *And trying to live a good life is ultimately futile, I believe. *Just note that I say \"trying.\" *A lot of it is aimed in pleasing others. *When I tried to be, it got me in a tie between having self-respect or getting other's respect at the expense on my own. *The more I try to be good, the more the \"ying/yang\" in me begins to argue and conflict. *It only arouses more conflict. *

Neither does it mean I try to be bad. *Stopping the motivation to be good does not mean being bad by default. *Like when Lucius said morals are relative...doesn't necessarily mean we go commit crimes and rape and murder people. *It's merely an inquisitive introspection of why things are the way they are. *That's why I say I'm open to being immoral, but do not insist on being that way.

t really depends on your terminology. *And I know lot of people don't agree to this type of opinion.

Yeah, what you are expressing here is the Saint's argument for Spiritual Humility. The attempt to attain to a Moral Perfection pitts the limited self against what approaches an Absolute Spiritual Ideal. Humility becomes the only way the Saint can still function in the midst of the inevitable frustrations.

But we do need to differentiate between Humility and Complacency. Paulist Doctrine, accepted by the mainstream of the Christian Community, with its dogma of Original Sin quite insists upon Moral Complacency, calling it Salvation by Faith. The Religious Orders always knew, or intuited, that Paulism was off-target, and that is why the Religious Orders set themselves apart -- choosing to engage in Forward and Upward looking Moral and Spiritual Endeavor, tempered with Humility.

When I was young, I thought perhaps there was one magic Stage of Spiritual Development that one could attain, and be Realized, Enlightened, Liberated. Words were evoked such as 'Nirvana', 'Satori', 'Samadhi'. And, yes, while I still suppose there is that One Veil that one must go through to get from Illusion to Reality, it remains that even after one has become one of the Enlightened, the trajectory doesn't flatten out, and the spiritual evolution continues even on the Other Side. We see this in the Stories of the Enlightened Saints, of all the Higher Religions. They continued to be goal oriented. Perhaps a few moved their focus from themselves to their Communities, but in so doing, the object for their Humility ceased to be entirely themselves, when they had their Followers and Disciples to be embarrassed for.

Originally posted by Dangeruss


If someone has very troubled dreams, is it ok to control them in order to reprogram the undoubtedly troubled subconcious? Now, surely the word \"reprogram\" is sending up red flags for you, leo, but consider it. If a conciously calm and collected person has a subconcious that offers him violent and debaucherous dreams, can LDing be a way to convince the subconcious that there's something else, something better to think about? I say with relative confidence that it can be done peacefully, without a rift between the concious and subconcious.

Yes!

Notice that when I object to Dream Control, I usually hedge by calling it 'Over-Control'. I realize that the utility inherent in Lucid Dreaming involves the conscious execution of certain choices made in Dreams, and there is no getting around it, that executing such moral choices is a form of "Control". I suppose the reason the Higher Self has given us the Gift of Lucidity is for the very purpose of being able to bring Waking Moral and Spiritual Insights to the more Primitive Dream Self -- it allows for the Integration of the Conscious and Subconscious Minds.

So, although I speak of Rules and Ethics, it is still rather a matter for discussion about where any solid line could be drawn. When does Lucidity stop helping and become destructive? Although I can't describe, in principal, exactly where that line begins, I do have a sense for what is 'way over the line', and that seems a good enough place for many of us to start. What seems to be 'way over the line' would be to, at the onset of Lucidity, simply wipe out all Subconscious Dream Content to replace it with a fantacy that comes totally out of Conscious Invention. There can be no Integration between the Conscious and Subconscious Minds when the Subconscious is totally suppressed.

Of course, I worry that my own choices to move to a Higher Dream Scene may be 'crossing my own line' -- that in leaving lower dreams, that I may be circumventing certain experiences that my Subconscious Mind really would desire me to go through. But in these considerations, I maintain a watchfullness on my Dream Content, so that I may discern the messages of my Subconscious. Dreams will let you know whether or not you are going in the right direction.

This is why I am alarmed when people conduct Workshops on shorting out and defeating all of the Subconscious Minds strategies for telling us that we are abusing Lucid Dreaming. False Awakenings are not something to dodge and then laugh about. After a False Awakening we need to ack ourselves why our Higher Mind thought it necessary to suppress Lucidity.

Originally posted by Seeker


One point I've often raised in the past is that there is conciousness. *This same conciousness is present both when awake and when lucid dreaming. *Being that there is one conciousness, why do people, when lucid dreaming, attempt to violate the morals they uphold while awake? *There is no difference! *Conciousness just is. *I know personally, lucid dreaming is a GRAND test of ones morals and ethics.

Yes but you're assuming that if one did have the dream-like powers in real life that they would automatically refrain from using them to harm another person, especially when they could get away with it. I actually think having those dreaming abilities makes it easier for people to use them whichever they wish.

Leo, interesting arguments here. You're string of logic makes sense, but is dependant on your interpretation or even assumption that the dream mind has an emotional reaction against the dreamer for the things he/she does, and can therefore 'cut the dreamer off' of dreaming and recall abilities. This may not be the case at all.

There are many reasons why even a master LD can be cut off from LDs. Reasons like becoming careless and lazy about reality checks, journals; poor sleeping habits, or trying too hard.

Originally posted by Leo Volont
So, yes, you seem to have a very good attitude. Perhaps you could share some of your dreams that may be backing up some of these premises I have been laying out.

Typically, I will ask for advice, and that will manifest itself in a dream. Here are the two examples I pulled from my dream journal, both have a similar dream symbol (the red shirt). Both ask advice about women.

Reply 14 Dream 4 and Reply 24 Dream 2

Having read the entire thread, I've not seen anyone suggest that it's not any consciousness "fighting against you" but simply the highly ephemeral nature of dreams. That the mind naturally and rightly drifts - and that any excessive control exercise simply increases this drift through dedicating "processing cycles" to maintaining the near-details at the expense of the far.

I guess sheeple would need to be told and led even in their dreams. Gotta keep 'em under your thumb some how.

Myself - I'm more into plotting any limitations through exercising applied tests. I really couldn't care what the sheeple dream about as anything more than a plot on a scattergraph. I don't lose sleep (pun intended) trying to figure out how to superimpose my morality upon their dreams...

Other than fear excentuated and reinforced (the sharpest tool of all religions that actively recruit ((that I've observed))) - I'm not sure exactly how you're going to practically enforce said rules, however.


Good work if you can get it, though.

Can there be any harm in you having fun in your lucid dreams? Morals still extend into dreams, but what's wrong with imagining a race, or maybe put yourself into your favorite game? Just let your imagination run wild, put yourself into your own little universe.

Kim has some point.

Speaking in terms of a dreaming mind's ethical categorization to be the reason why we don't lucid dream is incomplete. It's plausible, but does not apply to everybody. I only sought to understand everything, but not necessarily believe.

The release of moral constraint within the dream can be extremely alleviating to our being, considering if we were having a struggle with ourselves in waking life. A pseudo-Freudian concept, that whatever is superimposed in real life is compensated for in the dreams where there is drastically lower resistance. Trying to force that upon dreams is at best an artificial attempt as long as it doesn't reflect one's true intentions. Everybody's mind is independently different, even if not totally separate.

I myself think you cannot always draw a line on what is moral or what is not. To get everything would drive someone nuts. Yeah, sure, you can draw the line at how hurting others is it....but if you consider both specifics and holistic views, you need to be open to all possibilities to be at peace with yourself. Trying not to hurt others is sometimes a fallen concept because we do not truly know what goes on in other people's mind, and how to consider short term vs long term consequence of our moral or immoral actions. Everything may indeed come in full circle.
It's impossible not be hurting someone else in some way, and it's also impossible not to be helping someone else in some way. It's very indirect. Everything is interconnected, there are dualities in the world, and to touch all of them, I feel, leads to extra enlightenment.

I don't mean to make any big claims, but I am to express what I feel is logical.

First, that was a great post, Leo. You explained things in a way that really opened some doors for me in my thoughts.

Ethics is the study of the road to happiness. Some of you in this thread appear to be forgetting that, or have not learned that in the first place. It's an unfortunate accident that the word itself has been used as a substitute for some implicit standard ethical system. Ethics is not a static discipline, no matter what anybody says. That is just a factual statement. It constantly has new ideas and new life breathed into it.(*)

It's no different for dream ethics.

I once was an expert, "master" lucid dreamer. There were experiences where I was in "absolute control" for all intents and purposes. And then something happened that caused me profound trepidation over the years. I am not quite sure exactly what started it - I have many ideas, and there were many events - but I never quite had as many pleasent experiences and they were never as easy. The dream seemed relentless in keeping control from me. At one point I had suspected I was under control of a demon - probably as a result of going to new age type dream forums to seek advice!

But reading this post helped me remember that I actually did have a kind of dream ethics at the beginning. My goals were exploration and creativity. The goals did not become "control" until some type of catalyst. Again, I'm not sure exactly what it was, but the fact that High School is organized very much like a prison might have had something to do with it.

So just wanted to say thank you. I look forward to more rational and interesting discussions here at Dream Views.


(*) It's worth nothing that, however, is not itself a proof of ethical relativism - or that conflicting ethical systems are simultaneously valid.

Although I feel that I can do whatever I want in my dreams because they are mine and no one elses. I did have a lucid dream last night where I made a DC mad and I went out of my way to say sorry, I guess some of my morals still exist even in my dreams lol.

Originally posted by Awhislyle
Although I feel that I can do whatever I want in my dreams because they are mine and no one elses. I did have a lucid dream last night where I made a DC mad and I went out of my way to say sorry, I guess some of my morals still exist even in my dreams lol.

I suppose it may seem strange, but ethical/moral studies do not ignore the treatment of the self by the self by any means. Theoretically, you could be the last person on Earth and have no chance of meeting another human being, and still have a chance to treat yourself wrongly and thus, behave unethically.

Probably the most recognizant of what many ethical systems say is unbecoming of a person, regardless of interaction with others, are overeating and substance abuse. After that is probably laziness, though they are complimentary. The Greeks, for instance, didn't believe that such requirements were handed down from God, but were illuminated by reason. The joys of overeating and sloth are small, temporary, and ultimately illusory. Instead, they are actually harmful activities, and anyone who commits them breaks no law of society or God, but simply meanders in a degenerate, ignorant haze.

Hmm. Perhaps that was a little too prosaic. The point is that the dream environment is generally the arena of the self, and the ability to move one's self toward or away from happiness is no different than it is in waking life.

Personally I'm against using ethics or any kind of rules in lucid dreams. Dreams, by definition, should have no boundaries of any kind. If you wish to bound yourself by not practicing control or behaving like DCs are actual people, you are gonna lose a lot of fun.

Practicing control is not such a bad thing. Opposite to Leo's opinion, I think a lot of dream content is just a worthless garbage, simply the process of "digestion" of ideas and experiences accumulated through the day. Even while excerting a significant amount of control over the dream content, your mind still "digests" information in the background.


The concept of the "higher mind" seems somewhat too religious to me - why would one want to create another "God" , this time in the dreamworld?

Ev, I really like your view because I recognize its strengths. So I'm interested in what you think - what would you say to the claim that a dream character is a real person, and that that person is you (the dreamer)?

It's a subtle distinction, for instance, for a dreamer to recognize that a dream character is real insofar as it is really a part of themselves, before making some aggressive sexual move that would by definitition be consensual, and recognizing that a dream character is somehow foreign, and making an aggressive sexual move that may or may not be welcome. The former is obviously more conducive to health and happiness - and therefore more ethical - whille the latter is somewhat questionable and could adversely affect the conscience of the dreamer.

That may have been a somewhat complicated example. But I see definite strengths in both your view and Leo's and it excites me to try and reconcile them lucidly. I think we could potentially help out a lot of other lucid dreamers, as well as advance our knowledge of the entire discipline in a significant way.

IMO, some DCs *might* represent certain traits/processes in your mind. However the fact that DCs (at least mine) are not persistent in their actions, behavior or memory kinda diminishes that point.

For me the DCs are more like decorations: a street will have people on it, a supermarket will have shoppers, classroom will have student, etc etc etc.
These DCs are so fleeing, so immaterial, they rarely, if ever speak, they dont have a personality or appearance. If some of them happen to adress me, most are silent or saying nonsense. In rare cases, when I happen to initiate a conversation with a DC, *all* they tell me turns out to be either lies or total BS...

So far, the best defined DCs I've met are people I knew for a very long time. Yet even they are often just silent bystanders or companions, following me through dream scenery.

I guess that summarizes my point of view on DCs as people or aspects of yourself.


Now let me bring forth another point for controlling dreams: many people (in fact, just about everyone I know) never had a religious or spiritual experience in a dream. Dream control allows you to create such experiences if you so desire!
An example : it is very unlikely that a dreamguide or any other kind of "helper" will appear to you in a normal dream. Yet in a lucid dream one may actually wish and make such entity appear. Of course the authenticity of such entity may be questionable.

Yet another point that I find extremely important: while lucid, your lucidity often depends on your actions. It is very rare for me to just "go with the flow" and not lose lucidity. ( I dont know about other people's experiences, but I'd like to compare them to mine) Same goes with repetitive actions- let's say you are just flying for a very long time. Unless you change your activity at some point, you are *very* likely to lose a good portion if not all of your lucidity and clarity.

Yes. Ev, I definitely agree. But sometimes dreaming can be so removed from our ordinary reality that I don't know what words to use for certain unique feelings and experiences, so sometimes I feel resigned to using a spiritualist lexicon.

I'll stew over this for a while.

i read the whole post and thought that it was great, i have learnt so much from dreams and wouldnt want to trade that for flying around or dreamsex or whatever you guys do. i am however interested in how much controll i could have because i have a very limited experience with lucid dreams and have yet to explore most of what there is to see

This may be a bit offtopic, but anyways. The degree of dream control varies from person to person and from dream to dream. Sometimes I feel like everything is possible and I can change a lot of stuff and perform some pretty neat tricks. There are also dreams with little or no "supernatural" abilities - in such dreams all you can do is control your dream body and just walk around using land, doors, stairs, etc to move around.

A lot of dream control is performed by experimenting. There are many suggestions on how to control dreams, some of them will work for you, others wont.

Hi. I don't agree with your interpretation of the two human "minds".

It is fast becoming de rigeur in UK Psychology that the so-called "higher" mind is the true self, with us since birth..

..but that the other "mind" is in fact, learned behaviour, that we pick up as we go along, and therefore is in fact a "foreign installation", not of the true self.

I therefore postulate that any conflict between the two is due to the true self fighting against the foreign installation which tries to suppress the true self. Just a theory.

I really do have to agree. Dreams are wonderfull manifestations of the creative mind. Since I am a fanatic drawer I know how much to appreciate it and to an extend let it go. I don't want to have Lucid dreams every night or absolute power or understanding of that wonderfully mysterious place. I want it to stay that mysterious and sometimes being able to explore and just gaze at it in awe. Yeah you should defenitely have respect for the high creative level of your dreams. So many times have I used visions from dreams to inspire me to draw certain scenes and characters. I cherish it as a valueable source of Inspiration and wouldn't wanna call it the ''lower'' self. More the Spontanious Pure Unfiltered Self.

All you people who think they're not artistic enough to come up with something to draw: You ARE; look at what beautifull scenery, themes, feelings and experiences YOUR mind puts together every night. Make good use of it.

So basically you are comparing it with this? Leo?
A king gives a puny servant the powers that the king himself has.
However, if this ''fake king'' tries to destort the true kings ruling, the true king will try to remove this ''privilige''?

This, I never had before.
Maybe it's because I believe I have become ''one'' with the ''representation'' of my subconscious.

Now i'm not talking that I AM ''it''.
Just that we are thinking alike, and that ''it'' allows me to do whatever I want.

Though it could just as well be that I do not experience this because I do not destroy the current environment, I simply modify it as I wish.

eg.: I want to meet someone, I make a door appear, instead of destroying the whole environment to create a big house where I will find this person.

In other words, you could ALSO say that we ''supply'' eachother.

I provide my requests, with the appropiate ''modifications'' to fulfill them.
The ''Higher'' then fulfills them (or this is done on my part) and creates the area where this ''will be fulfilled''.

I really don't know but i've never had problems with my subconscious. So it's hard for me to react on this.

Funny though, lately I haven't had any dreams except for the one I had yesterday (probably due to the lack of sleep / the heat).

I doubt that that has anything to do with my ''higher dream mind''.