Thread: control without awareness

Originally posted by italianmonkey
from a discussion in "research team" forum

some say they have control on non-lucid dreams similar to the one they have in LDs. Like knowing it's a dream doesn't come out and remain sort of unconscious. Me too, and don't think it's just for the "habit" because as a child i learnt separately awareness and control.

control without awareness, awareness without control...

does it make any sense to someone?

Actually, Lucid Dreaming is preliminary and introductory. It is what beginners do.

Once one is practiced in Lucid Dreaming, then one no longer needs to interrupt Dream Consciousness in order to exercise conscious choices.

You see, before Lucidity, the Dream Consciousness is perhaps a bit Primitive. The Dream Persona is lesser and a darker version of the Waking Persona. What Lucidity does is that it brings the Waking Moral Perspective into the Consciousness of the Dream Persona -- and the Dream Persona is made to understand how it has been falling short of optimum consciousness. So it is that Lucidity initiates an improvement in the Consciousness of the Dreaming Persona.

But what happens when there is a full Integration between the Waking and the Dreaming Personas? Well, then Lucidity would become redundant and unnecessary. When the Dreaming Persona would make the Same Choices as the Waking Persona, then why should there be any interruption in Consciousness.

Indeed, I have noticed, lately, that in my own dreams, apart from my Dream Persona behaving in a more Primitive way than in ordinary waking, it seems that my Dream Persona is actually behaving more Civilized than even myself. So, there, we would have a situation in which, if my Waking Persona were to step into a Dream, the result would be to decline the quality of the Dream.

Lucidity only amounts toward an Improvement in Dreaming when the Dream Persona is decidedly still at a primitive and immature level. Once that Dream Persona is Developed and Matured, then Lucidity is a tool, a crutch, that is no longer necessary.

Originally posted by Leo Volont

Actually, Lucid Dreaming is preliminary and introductory. It is what beginners do.
Once one is practiced in Lucid Dreaming, then one no longer needs to interrupt Dream Consciousness in order to exercise conscious choices.
You see, before Lucidity, the Dream Consciousness is perhaps a bit Primitive. The Dream Persona is lesser and a darker version of the Waking Persona. What Lucidity does is that it brings the Waking Moral Perspective into the Consciousness of the Dream Persona -- and the Dream Persona is made to understand how it has been falling short of optimum consciousness. So it is that Lucidity initiates an improvement in the Consciousness of the Dreaming Persona.

But what happens when there is a full Integration between the Waking and the Dreaming Personas? Well, then Lucidity would become redundant and unnecessary. When the Dreaming Persona would make the Same Choices as the Waking Persona, then why should there be any interruption in Consciousness.

Indeed, I have noticed, lately, that in my own dreams, apart from my Dream Persona behaving in a more Primitive way than in ordinary waking, it seems that my Dream Persona is actually behaving more Civilized than even myself. So, there, we would have a situation in which, if my Waking Persona were to step into a Dream, the result would be to decline the quality of the Dream.

Lucidity only amounts toward an Improvement in Dreaming when the Dream Persona is decidedly still at a primitive and immature level. Once that Dream Persona is Developed and Matured, then Lucidity is a tool, a crutch, that is no longer necessary.

Very well described Leo.
IN all these discussions about consciousness wakefulness levels, this & that, you now finally describe this in a more significant manner.
Just as in waking life, if you are sad for example or angry. Angry is not you. It is a reaction and an experience, correct?
So same holds true for confidence.
So how does one over come the overwhelming experience of the lack confidence they have while being in a lucid dream state? This roadblock.
You can try to tell yourself many things to overcome perception but you have to believe it. In this realm of lucidity that is limited in time (from my experiences ) one has to administer these thoughts without thinking about it...for lack of a better word. Hesitation?

In your last paragraph you and I have discussed this level of conscious awareness which I could argue if I had not seen this myself. But contradictory to what we are saying, can't we still be able to distinguish the realm of no boundaries and that of waking life? Even if the conscious level does remain the same.

Originally posted by Leo
Lucidity only amounts toward an Improvement in Dreaming when the Dream Persona is decidedly still at a primitive and immature level. Once that Dream Persona is Developed and Matured, then Lucidity is a tool, a crutch, that is no longer necessary.

[quote]

Very well described Leo.
IN all these discussions about consciousness wakefulness levels, this & that, you now finally describe this in a more significant manner.
Just as in waking life, if you are sad for example or angry. Angry is not you. It is a reaction and an experience, correct?
So same holds true for confidence.
So how does one over come the overwhelming experience of the lack confidence they have while being in a lucid dream state? This roadblock.
You can try to tell yourself many things to overcome perception but you have to believe it. In this realm of lucidity that is limited in time (from my experiences ) one has to administer these thoughts without thinking about it...for lack of a better word. Hesitation?

In your last paragraph you and I have discussed this level of conscious awareness which I could argue if I had not seen this myself. But contradictory to what we are saying, can't we still be able to distinguish the realm of no boundaries and that of waking life? Even if the conscious level does remain the same.

What is it about the Transformation from Ordinary Dream to Big Dream. Recently I had such a Dream. It was not classicaly "Lucid" because, as a matter of fact, I thought I had Astrally Projected, but what occurred in the dream was an intensification of Consciousness and there was an added intensity given to both the Perceptions and likewise to the objects of perception.

And then in the context of the Dream, I was fully in possession of all my Dream Expertise... for instance, I jumped off of a cliff because my Dream Experience was quite convinced that that was the shortcut to down to the bottom, and it never occurred to me that I could hurt myself. Yes, for awhile I was flying, but when that energy cut out and left me in a New Dream Scene, I was confortable that I had seen the same process dozens of times, and thus my Inspiration that if I could not fly, I could easily fall, and took the shortcut over the side of the cliff. That was the Dream of the New Church -- the Church in the final stages of contruction (being painted inside) with the steps of three tiers of harvest wheat in front).

so the Dream was not Lucid, but I carried the full working experience of all my previous Lucid Dreams. I was the Full Dream Persona, but morally and ethically I was entirely identical with my Waking Persona, or perhaps, my Dream Persona had independently developed to that moral state over time and maturity (my Dream Persona is not that of a teenage boy anymore).