Status#DVX#DVAX
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[18:52] == naiya [
[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[18:52] == mode/#DVA [+o naiya] by DreamBot
[18:52] <@naiya> Hi
[18:52] <BagO> Hey
[18:53] <Mancon123> Hi
[18:54] <@naiya> It's still early, so we'll give it about 5-10 more minutes
[18:55] <Mancon123> Okay :O
[18:57] <Mancon123> I already started a workbook lol I named it "Mancon's Amazing Workbook"
[18:57] <@naiya> I saw xD
[19:00] == Samael [
[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[19:00] <Samael> I kind of love the passwords here.
[19:00] <@naiya> BTW...normally I stay at least an hour after each class to answer questions, but today I've got a paper to work on after this, so I'll be going right after the lecture's over.
[19:00] <@naiya> hehe, hi samael
[19:01] <Samael> Hey, Naiya.
[19:01] <Samael> This should be fun.
[19:01] <Mancon123> Okay that's fine Naiya. If I need anything i'll PM you
[19:02] <Samael> I might have to leave early, though.
[19:02] <@naiya> No prob--the chatlogs will always be posted
[19:02] <@naiya> That's why the lectures are optional, people can come to them if they want to interact more, but if they can't make it they can read it afterwards.
[19:03] <Samael> I think that's a really good system, since we're not all on the same schedule.
[19:03] <Mancon123> Yeah I agree
[19:03] <@naiya> Yeah, exactly...last time I did a class, only people in my time zone could be in it
so it kinda sucked for some people.
[19:04] == Alex [
[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[19:04] == mode/#DVA [+y Alex] by irc.dreamviews.com
[19:04] == mode/#DVA [+o Alex] by DreamBot
[19:04] <@naiya> xD
[19:05] <@naiya> Good, now Alex can learn to WILD too
[19:05] <Mancon123> XD alex
[19:05] <!Alex> zup dawgs
[19:05] <@naiya> OK, it's 7:05 so I'm gonna start
[19:06] <!Alex> no cmon
[19:06] <!Alex> whats up
[19:06] <!Alex> there were like 10k inscriptions
[19:06] <@naiya> inscriptions? :O
[19:06] <!Alex> and 3 ppl r here?
[19:06] <!Alex> what shiz it that
[19:06] <@naiya> That's cause the chats are not mandatory this time
[19:06] <!Alex> I mean like 10k ppl subscibing to the course
[19:06] <!Alex> ?
[19:06] <!Alex> wtf00k
[19:06] <@naiya> That way people in other timezones can still take the class.
[19:06] <!Alex> :S
[19:07] == Serenity [
[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[19:07] == mode/#DVA [+o Serenity] by DreamBot
[19:07] <@naiya> If it doesn't end up going well, I can always have them mandatory for my next courses.
[19:07]*** Samael repeats: Serenity!
[19:07] <@Serenity> hi
my phone will probably die very soon...
[19:08] <@naiya> Aww it's all right
[19:08]*** Samael wills Serenity's phone to keep working.
[19:08] <@naiya> xD
[19:08] <Mancon123> xD
[19:08] <@Serenity>
[19:09] <@Serenity> idle while i change to normal ppl clothes.
[19:09] <@naiya> OK, I'm gonna start off with the definition of a WILD.
[19:09] <@Serenity> talk amongst yourselves XD
[19:10] <@naiya> WILD stands for Wake Initiated Lucid Dream
[19:10] <@naiya> What makes it a WILD is that, instead of falling asleep and having a break in your consciousness, you go directly from being awake to being in a lucid dream.
[19:11] <@naiya> Some people consider WILD to be superior to DILD because of this.
[19:11] <@naiya> There are a lot of things that make WILD much more appealing than DILD.
[19:12] == quorthonafull [
[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[19:12] <@naiya> Hi
[19:12] <quorthonafull> hi!
[19:12] <@naiya> Go ahead, take a seat, ect ect.
[19:12] <@naiya> We were just starting.
[19:12] == Serenity [
[email protected]] has quit [Ping timeout: 90 seconds]
[19:13] <Samael> My psychic powers seem to be lacking.
[19:13] <@naiya> So anywho, a lot of times people are attracted to WILD because it seems like you can do it on the first try.
[19:13] <@naiya> It IS possible to do it on the first try, but it's not very likely unless you've done it by accident before.
[19:14] <@naiya> In general, I wouldn't advise anyone to try WILD if they have never had a lucid dream before. In my opinion, WILD is more difficult to learn than DILD.
[19:14] <Samael> Hear, hear.
[19:14] <@naiya> On the other hand, WILD is great because it can often feel much more vivid, real, and stable than DILD.
[19:15] <@naiya> Also, it is much easier to remember and complete tasks when you do a WILD.
[19:15] <quorthonafull> That's other thing that attracts people
[19:15] <@naiya> Unlike DILD, if you do a WILD correctly, you don't need to pull your mind together. You should already be thinking very clearly.
[19:16] <@naiya> IMO, both DILD and WILD have their pros and cons.
[19:16] <@naiya> They are both great in their own ways.
[19:16] <@naiya> However, the misconception seems to be that WILD can be learned more quickly than DILD.
[19:16] <@naiya> In theory that's true--for example, learning to MILD almost always takes a long time before it even starts to work at all.
[19:17] <@naiya> Whereas every single time you WILD there is a chance of succeeding.
[19:17] <@naiya> (That's also true for DILD, it's just much harder in the beginning).
[19:17] <@naiya> So to sum it up, if you're not sure if you had a WILD or DILD, ask yourself if you were conscious the entire time.
[19:18] <@naiya> If you can remember everything from the moment you put your head on the pillow to the moment you woke up, it's a WILD.
[19:18] <Samael> So you have to wake up right away again?
[19:18] <@naiya> Sometimes, if you fail a WILD, it can still result in a lucid dream--that is, you'll fall asleep or black out for a bit, start dreaming, and realize you're dreaming at some point.
[19:18] <@naiya> Samael: what do you mean?
[19:19] <quorthonafull> If You fall asleep, You can have a DILD
[19:19] <Samael> Well, if you fall asleep and directly into a lucid dream, is it still a WILD if you lose lucidity somewhere along the way?
[19:19] == distilled [
[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[19:19] <Samael> Assuming the WILD was successful up until that point.
[19:19] <@naiya> I shouldn't really say "fall asleep," because technically you are sleeping when you are in a WILD
what counts is if you are conscious.
[19:21] <@naiya> Samael: That's kind of a gray area. Technically it's a WILD, I would say, because there is no break in consciousness.
[19:21] <@naiya> The general rule is, you never have to be lucid for the whole dream for it to be considered a lucid dream,
[19:22] <@naiya> Here's a good example:
[19:22] <@naiya> When you WILD, you might think it failed, and you'll get up out of bed. You'll be in a dream now, but you may or may not realize it. That depends on how aware you keep yourself.
[19:22] <@naiya> If you RC when you get up, then yes it's a WILD.
[19:23] <@naiya> If you don't RC and you go through the dream thinking it's real, then the WILD failed.
[19:24] <@naiya> So yeah...the biggest difference between DILD & WILD is whether or not you have that period of unconsciousness between going to bed and getting lucid.
[19:24] <@naiya> Any more questions before we move on to the next part?
[19:25] <Mancon123> No
[19:25] <@naiya> Ok, cool.
[19:25] <Samael> Nope.
[19:25] <quorthonafull> No.
[19:25] <@naiya> So have any of you at least read a little bit about sleep cycles and how they help you WILD?
[19:26] <Mancon123> Yeah I read a little in stephen laberge's book
[19:26] <BagO> Yeah same here
[19:26] <distilled> wikipedia FTW
[19:26] <quorthonafull> I've read something
[19:26] <@naiya> Mk, good
[19:26] <@naiya> So I won't get too technical about the stages of sleep--I just want to talk about what is relevant
[19:26] <Samael> I'll try to keep up.
[19:26] <@naiya>
[19:27] <@naiya> OK, so first of all, when we sleep, we go through a sleep cycle, which is made up of different sleep stages.
[19:27] <@naiya> Each sleep cycle takes about 90 minutes to complete. When it is complete, we usually wake up to some extent. We don't usually remember waking up, though.
[19:28] <@naiya> A lot of times people thrash around a bit in between their sleep cycles.
[19:28] <@naiya> As the night goes on, we spend different amounts of time in the different sleep stages in each sleep cycle.
[19:29] <@naiya> The sleep stages are divided up into two main categories: NREM and REM.
[19:29] <@naiya> NREM always comes before REM. It is made up of stages N1, N2, and N3.
[19:30] <@naiya> N1 is very short, maybe a few minutes--it's that kind of twilight period you have as you fall asleep.
[19:31] <@naiya> N2 is a brings you into a deeper sleep. Finally, N3, also known as slow-wave sleep, takes you into the deepest sleep of the night.
[19:31] <@naiya> In the first third of the night, N3 dominates.
[19:31] <@naiya> In other words, early on in the night, you will spend most of your time in very deep sleep, which you don't normally dream.
[19:32] <@naiya> there ARE dreams in NREM, but they are almost never the vivid, long nice ones we want for LDing
[19:32] <@naiya> So as the night goes on, we get less and less of this deep sleep. We start getting more REM sleep with each new cycle.
[19:32] <@naiya> REM sleep is known to be the stage in which we dream.
[19:33] <@naiya> and BTW, REM stand for rapid eye movement, which is the main characteristic of REM sleep.
[19:34] <@naiya> REM is an important concept for WILDers, because they need to time their WILD attempts so that they have optimum REM periods--in other words, a good chance of going right into REM and also being in REM for a long time.
[19:34] <@naiya> I should note that in normal people, there is an atonia (paralysis) of the skeletal muscles. That way we don't act out our dreams
[19:35] <@naiya> So all this stuff is why people often tell you to wake up after like 4-6 hours of sleep and THEN try your WILD.
[19:36] <@naiya> (Unless you're attempting WILD in a nap)
[19:37] <@naiya> Everybody is different, so you will all have to experiment with waking up at different times and trying different things for your WBTB to see what works.
[19:37] <BagO> question
[19:37] <@naiya> Because the other factor in WILDing is needing to be tired enough to go to sleep, but awake enough to stay conscious. It's a very difficult balance and it is VERY hard to figure out at first.
[19:37] <@naiya> Bag0: yup? :0
[19:37] <Samael> So, REM sleep is tacked on at the end of every cycle, right? N1, N2, N3, REM?
[19:38] <@naiya> Samael: yes, the order goes N1, N2, N3, N2, and REM and then you wake up.
[19:38] <BagO> How does it work for naps?**Wouldn't having a nap during the day start you back out at nrem1?
[19:38] <Samael> Great, thanks.
[19:39] <@naiya> Bag0: that's a good question. It's a little complicated but I'll try.
[19:39] <@naiya> When it's dark your body produces hormones that make you more sleepy.
[19:40] <@naiya> When you nap during daylight hours, you're not only not quite ready for the full night of sleep, but you don't get those hormones.
[19:40] <@naiya> So basically, you end up in a light sleep.
[19:40] <Samael> I think it depends on the schedule you're sleeping by, too.
[19:40] <@naiya> And when you are in a light sleep, you don't get the deep sleep stages--you get REM.
[19:40] <Samael> If you work at night and sleep during the day...
[19:40] <@naiya> Yeah it definitely depends on the schedule, too
[19:40] <BagO> Oh ok, thanks
[19:41] <Mancon123> NaiyaL So i'm attempting a WILD tonight. I have no idea when my REM cycle is. So you recommend experimenting from 4-6 hours after you go to bed? Would you recommend If I try to wake up after 6 hours of sleep and attempt a WILD?
[19:41] <@naiya> Having a weird sleep schedule opens up a whole can of worms that I don't wanna attempt to get into today XD
[19:42] <Samael> Fair enough.
[19:42] <@naiya> Mancon123: yes, I recommend 4-6 hours. It's a good starting place
[19:42] <Mancon123> Okay thanks
[19:42] <@naiya> I usually WILD after like...8 hours of sleep.
[19:42] <@naiya> So it can be later, but it's best to try it when you know you'll be tired enough to fall asleep.
[19:43] == drdr [
[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[19:43] <drdr> hello
[19:43] <drdr> sorry I'm late
[19:43] <quorthonafull> Question
[19:43] <Samael> drdr, give me the news.
[19:43] <@naiya> hi
[19:43] <Samael> Sorry, I was listening to the radio today.
[19:43] <drdr> what news?
[19:43] <@naiya> quor, yup?
[19:44] <quorthonafull> I set my alarm for about 6 hours, but I wake up naturally 5 or 10 minutes before the alarm rings
[19:44] <Samael> It's a song, drdr.
[19:44] <drdr> oh!
[19:44] <@naiya> Ohh, that's good!
[19:44] <drdr> hahah yeah,
[19:44] <drdr> i know that osng
[19:44] <drdr> I got a bad case of lovin you?
[19:44] <@naiya> If you wake up naturally, then WILD when you wake naturally.
[19:44] <Samael>
[19:45] <quorthonafull> Ok
[19:45] <drdr> Question
[19:45] <distilled> yeah but don't you usually wake up after REM? wouldn't that defeat the purpose of WILD?
[19:46] <@naiya> drdr: yes?
[19:46] <@naiya> You usually wake up after REM, yes.
[19:46] <@naiya> That's why WILD is so hard--you are trying to bypass the other sleep stages.
[19:47] <drdr> So, I can get into SP fairly easily
[19:47] <drdr> at least I think it's SP - it's hard to move my limbs and my body feels "heavy"
[19:47] <drdr> but I can never get anywhere from there
[19:47] <@naiya> In the morning you don't spend much time in the NREM sleep anyway, and sometimes you go almost directly into REM. This is what we want to take advantage of.
[19:47] <@naiya> drdr, sounds like it may be SP.
[19:47] <drdr> How do I go from SP into a dream state?
[19:48] <@naiya> I'm glas you asked cause that was going to be my next topic. xD
[19:48] <@naiya> glad*
[19:48] <drdr> Cool
[19:48] <@naiya> First let's talk about HH and HI, though, since it's related to SP.
[19:49] <@naiya> Hypnogagic hallucinations are hallucinations we get as we are falling asleep.
[19:49] <@naiya> Sometimes it's hearing things, seeing things, smelling things, feeling things touching us ect.
[19:49] <@naiya> HH normally comes before and overlaps with SP.
[19:49] == shiraniaori [
[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[19:49] <@naiya> Also, HH tends to be the first signpost of the WILD.
[19:50] <@naiya> Sometimes it can startle you and jolt you awake, so be careful.
[19:50] <@naiya> Hi Shiran
[19:50] <shiraniaori> Hey, sorry I'm late, didn't know I was supposed to put DVA before the passwordd, just figured that the room was crepes
[19:51] <@naiya> No prob.
[19:51] <Samael> We've all had password troubles, I think.
[19:51] <shiraniaori> yeah, I've never used IRC before.
[19:51] <shiraniaori> was never a fan of its style...
[19:52] <@naiya> yeah
it takes a little getting used to. I imagine the next class will be more full.
[19:52] <quorthonafull> I never used IRC too
[19:52] <drdr> Probably - this was a little sudden too
[19:52] <drdr> I didn't know it was going on, that's why I was late
[19:52] <@naiya> Aw D: sorry about that, guys.
[19:53] <drdr> it's all good
[19:53] <shiraniaori> I think the OP with all the classes said the one was on monday, and we'd be getting a pm sunday
[19:53] <shiraniaori> so that might be why.
[19:53] <@naiya> Hmm...DILD is mon-weds-fri
[19:53] <@naiya> and WILD is sun-tues-thurs
[19:53] <@naiya> I might've chopped off sunday in one of them <_<
[19:54] <@naiya> Anyway, it's getting toward the end of the lecture, so I want to talk about SP before we finish
[19:54] <shiraniaori> I might've misread it, idk.
[19:54] == Alex [
[email protected]] has quit [Ping timeout: 90 seconds]
[19:54] <@naiya> Sleep paralysis is an episode in which a person is usually transitioning from wake to sleep or sleep to wake and they find that they cannot move. SP is commonly characterized by hallucinations, vibrations, loud ringing or roaring noises in the ears, pressure on the chest or choking sensations, and often fear if impending doom or terror if the person is has no prior knowledge or experience of SP.
[19:55] <@naiya> That's the official definition
[19:55] <BagO>
[19:55] <@naiya> How many here have had SP before?
[19:55] <BagO> I have.
[19:55] <@naiya> whether or not they knew what it was at the time or were intending to get it?
[19:55] <drdr> I have, but not really with hallucinations
[19:55] <Mancon123> Once.
[19:56] <@naiya> Ok, that's good
[19:56] <drdr> Everything's just dark.
[19:56] <Mancon123> I hallucinated a room full of frogs actually
[19:56] <@naiya> lol, wow
[19:56] <drdr> Wow,
[19:56] <drdr> I wish I could do that.
[19:56] <@naiya> you heard them, or saw them...?
[19:56] <Mancon123> but I never got into a dream lol
[19:56] <shiraniaori> I've felt it coming up
[19:56] <Samael> I've had HH, I think
[19:56] <Samael> Falling asleep.
[19:56] <Samael> And waking up.
[19:56] <Mancon123> Naiya I saw them then they dissapeared and I heard them
[19:56] <Samael> Don't know about SP, though.
[19:56] <@naiya> BTW, I should mention that HH also happens as we wake up
[19:57] <@naiya> Hmm
[19:57] <shiraniaori> I had a weird experience with HH last morning...
[19:57] <@naiya> In any case, like I said, normally you'll get HH, that will overlap into SP, and SP is always great because you know you're very close to WILDing when you hit it.
[19:58] <@naiya> I'll get into more tips about how to use SP to your advantage and what to do in the other lectures.
[19:58] <@naiya> But for now I'll tell you this--when you hit SP, it might be freaky and you might feel like you ought to try to move now. Be careful.
[19:58] <Samael> And the difference between them, yeah?
[19:58] <@naiya> When you hit SP, the best thing to do is relax MORE.
[19:58] <@naiya> yup
[19:58] <quorthonafull> I've a succesful WILD (only one, with sleep deprivation) and I felt nothing
[19:59] <@naiya> That can happen. Sometimes I WILD and I never notice any SP or any hallucinations.
[19:59] <@naiya> Sometimes I will be sitting there thinking that it might've failed, and then all of a sudden, I get blurry vision, and it's the dream
[20:00] <Samael> Wait, SP is a state that you're in, and it may include HH?
[20:00] <@naiya> Or I'll imagine myself standing next to the door, putting my hands on the wall, and after 20 seconds it will begin to materialze and be an actual dream.
[20:00] <@naiya> SP is an episode where you feel paralyzed, and it usually includes HH
[20:00] <BagO> Do you find that when you think about SP is goes away?
[20:00] <Samael> Hey, I think I've actually done that before. It was in the middle of a lucid dream though, after it had destabilized.
[20:01] <Samael> Ah, that clears up the SP vs HH thing, thanks.
[20:01] <distilled> question
[20:01] <@naiya> Bag0: No, not usually. It's not the thinking about SP that jolts me awake--it's getting too excited about it.
[20:01] <BagO> Oh ok because sometimes when it's coming and I start to think about it, it starts to back off a bit.
[20:02] <drdr> So, naiya, how do I transition into dreaming from SP?
[20:02] <Mancon123> +
[20:02] <Mancon123> Oops sorry
[20:02] <@naiya> We will get into the transition in detail in another lecture.
[20:02] <distilled> I have a problem with sleep walking. Is there any chance of me acting out my dreams when WILDING?
[20:03] <@naiya> Bag0: we are all different. For WILD it is VERY important that you listen to your own mental and physical cues. So in your case, try not to think about SP, and just relax.
[20:03] <@naiya> distilled: That is possible, yes. I know of a WILDer who sleptwalk during their WILD. It was a bizarre experience.
[20:04] <Samael> I think I've actually experienced SP before. I'm not sure, because I didn't want to try to move and accidently wake myself up completely.
[20:04] <Samael> *I'm not sure if I was paralyzed.
[20:04] <@naiya> It's possible.
[20:04] <@naiya> Since you didn't try to move, you wouldn't have known if you were or not.
[20:04] <shiraniaori> question
[20:04] <drdr> Aw
[20:04] <Samael> And then I fell asleep completely
[20:04] <@naiya> That's why sometimes we might not notice SP when it happens.
[20:04] <Mancon123> Wait doesnt sleepwalking occur in NREM only?
[20:04] <@naiya> aww
[20:04] <Samael>**Bah.
[20:04] <@naiya> Shiran: yes?
[20:05] <drdr> Hey I have to go, thanks for the lecture naiya
[20:05] <shiraniaori> When you feel SP is it always overpowering?
[20:05] <drdr> I'll see you on tuesday?
[20:05] <shiraniaori> As in, impossible to move until its gone
[20:05] <shiraniaori> or can you snap yourself out of it easier sometimes, etc etc
[20:06] <Samael> I'd guess it's not overpowering if you don't struggle against it.
[20:06] <@naiya> Mancon123: in NREM sleep our skeletal muscles are NOT paralyzed. In REM sleep they are. Sleep walking is a disorder where the function that paralyzes the muscles isn't working, so dreams are acted out.
[20:06] <Mancon123> Oh okay thank you!
[20:06] <@naiya> Shiran: Sometimes SP is overpowering, sometimes not. It varies from person to person AND it can be different with each WILD.
[20:06] == drdr [
[email protected]] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
[20:06] <@naiya> That's another reason why WILD is so hard
[20:07] <Mancon123> Thank you for the lecture!
[20:07] <Samael> Jesus, I have three pages of notes here. XD I don't like reading chat logs
[20:07] <@naiya> YW.
[20:07] <@naiya> lol
[20:07] <shiraniaori> So is each WILD a different experience? last question
[20:07] <@naiya> Yeah, I thought I would end the lecture with SP.
[20:07] <@naiya> Yes, each WILD is a different experience
[20:07] <@naiya> Exciting, no?
[20:07] <Samael> Thanks, Naiya. You've cleared up a few things I was having trouble with.
[20:07] == distilled [
[email protected]] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
[20:08] <@naiya> I'm glad
[20:08] <@naiya> This pretty much concludes the lecture.
[20:08] <shiraniaori> lol, alright, well thanks for the lecture, see you on tuesday
[20:08] <quorthonafull> Thanks!
[20:08] <@naiya> Next time we're going to get into the actual WILD process.
[20:08] <Mancon123> So I will record my WILD preparation in my Student Workbook and then describe my attempt and see if it works
[20:08] <BagO> Yeah thanks a lot naiya
[20:08] <@naiya> Yes, please do Mancon
[20:09] <Mancon123> Okay thanks.
[20:09] <@naiya> I will have to leave now--I'll stick around for questions for all the other lectures but I have a lot to get done today
[20:09] <Samael> See ya.
[20:09] <@naiya> I'll post the log in the syllabus thread.
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