Thread: Naiya's Intro to Lucid Dreaming Syllabus

Spoiler for Lecture One:

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[15:03] == Naiya [[email protected]] has joined #DVA
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[15:16] == Shift [[email protected]] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client]
[16:49] == Hidden [[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[16:50] <%Naiya> hey
[16:50] <Hidden> hi =)
[16:50] <%Naiya> crap brb
[16:50] <%Naiya> possibly
[16:51] <%Naiya> damn microwave. sometimes it knocks out the wireless.
[16:51] <Hidden> oh. o.o
[16:51] <Hidden> That's no good.
[16:51] <%Naiya> yeah
[16:51] <%Naiya> hopefully we have some more people in a few minutes here ~_~
[16:51] <Hidden> Well, it's only 4:51
[16:51] <%Naiya> I was pretty wary about having the times in GMT...mayhaps that was too confusing...
[16:52] <Hidden> Well, different people are in different time zones
[16:52] <%Naiya> yeah :x
[16:52] <Hidden> So regardless they would have had to do some converting
[16:52] <%Naiya> very true
[16:52] <Hidden> And GMT seems to be sort of standard... I know I'm -8, anyway.
[16:53] <%Naiya> yeah you're in my time zone
[16:53] <Hidden> yup
[16:53] <%Naiya> I tried to mostly pick people within a few hours of this time zone.
[16:53] <Hidden> Why?
[16:54] <%Naiya> Shift suggested it due to the problems she thought it caused in her class.
[16:55] <%Naiya> The next time I teach this class I'll try to change the meet times to be more Euro friendly and so on
[16:55] <Hidden> ohh, I see.
[16:58] == xiper [[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[16:58] <%Naiya> *drags in xiper*
[16:58] <%Naiya> there we go.
[16:58] == Akono [[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[16:58] <xiper> haha sy guys
[16:58] == mode/#DVA [+o Akono] by DreamBot
[16:58] <%Naiya>
[16:58] <%Naiya> I guess we'll give it a few more minutes to see who else comes.
[16:59] <Hidden> Who all's in the class?
[16:59] <xiper> kk I need a min.. to get settled here at my desk
[17:00] <%Naiya> requiemforadream, banana, beachgirl, you two, adreamer168, pllplp, smokyspirit, kidjordan, eternalstar01
[17:00] <%Naiya> most of whom are not online. >_>
[17:01] <Hidden> ...greeeat
[17:01] <@Alex> that needs a punishment
[17:01] <%Naiya> I can see how the whole time scheduling thing will be the hardest part of class indeed...
[17:01]*** Alex takes out the basey
[17:01] <%Naiya> lol.
[17:01] == A^dreamer168 [[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[17:01] <%Naiya> welcome
[17:01] <A^dreamer168> glad to be here
[17:01] <Hidden> That's 4
[17:02] <%Naiya> lol woot.
[17:02] <xiper> Ok now im here
[17:02] <A^dreamer168> I've not had one lucid yet so...I need to be here
[17:02] <@Alex> oh noes, it's a dreamer
[17:02] <A^dreamer168> Why do you say that?
[17:02] <%Naiya> aw yeah xD
[17:03] <xiper> No worrys mate I have only had one so im in the same boat
[17:03] <A^dreamer168> I'm not a noes-worthy person
[17:03] <@Alex>
[17:03] <A^dreamer168> You haven't been here 3 years
[17:04] <%Naiya> all right...I guess we should get started.
[17:04] <%Naiya> I don't think the rest are going to show. We'll have to work out a way for them to make it up later, but I'll post the chat log for them as well.
[17:04] <%Naiya> They can do an extra reading assignment or something >_>
[17:05] <%Naiya> OK so...what do you guys call a lucid dream?
[17:06] <A^dreamer168> A dream where one is conscious...not exactly in control
[17:06] <%Naiya> ok any other takers?
[17:06] <xiper> Umm a dream where you gain control over what is being made or happening
[17:06] <Hidden> A dream where you know you're dreaming.
[17:06] == Jeff777 [[email protected]] has joined #DVA
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[17:06] <%Naiya> cool
[17:07] <%Naiya> I'm going to torture you guys a little further now lol.
[17:07] <A^dreamer168> Nooooes
[17:07] <%Naiya> I'm going to give you a few scenarios and you tell me if you think they're lucid or not.
[17:07]*** Jeff777 sits in ^_^
[17:07] <%Naiya> You do a reality check in a dream, and you conclude that you are dreaming. However, you get so excited that you wake up. This is a lucid dream, but one in which the dreamer did not have enough stabilization technique to keep the dream going.
[17:07] <%Naiya> Lucid or no?
[17:07] <Hidden> lucid
[17:07] <A^dreamer168> Lucid
[17:07] <xiper> Lucid
[17:08] <%Naiya> guess that was too obvious. xD
[17:08] <A^dreamer168> He had awareness
[17:08] <%Naiya> You have a false awakening, do a reality check, and conclude that you are dreaming. You run off to explore the area, but you get lost in the dream plot and completely forget that you are in a dream.
[17:08] <%Naiya> lucid or no?
[17:08] <A^dreamer168> no
[17:08] <xiper> no
[17:08] <A^dreamer168> It WAS
[17:08] <%Naiya> hehe. getting a little harder
[17:08] <Hidden> lucid up until you lost lucidity
[17:09] <%Naiya> This is still a lucid dream, but one in which you have lost your lucidity.
[17:09] <%Naiya> You realize you are dreaming and decide that you want to do the Dreamviews Task of the Month. You can't remember what it was, so you decide to log onto your computer to find out. It does not occur to you that your dream computer will be inaccurate. You do the task you find on your dream computer and wake yourself up so you can record the dream without forgetting any details.
[17:09] <%Naiya> lucid or no?
[17:09] <Hidden> lucid
[17:09] <A^dreamer168> no?
[17:10] <%Naiya> it's all right if you're not sure, btw. This is the first class after all.
[17:10] <xiper> lucid
[17:10] <%Naiya> You recognize one of your dream signs and realize that you are dreaming. You decide that you want to try a classic--flying. You run to your balcony, climb up and jump. Only to fall flat on the ground. Even thought you know it's a dream and that you should be able to fly, you just can't seem to get up in the air.
[17:10] <%Naiya> Last one. lucid or no?
[17:10] <A^dreamer168> Lucid
[17:10] <Hidden> lucid
[17:10] <xiper> lucid
[17:11] <%Naiya> ooh good xD
[17:11] <%Naiya> Okay so getting to what is and isn't a lucid dream.
[17:11] <%Naiya> a lucid dream is just knowing it's a dream
[17:11] <%Naiya> so...you do not have to intentionally induce a lucid dream for it to be lucid. Many lucid dreams are completely spontaneous.
[17:11] <A^dreamer168> Yours were
[17:12] <%Naiya> You do not have to be lucid throughout the entire dream for it to count as a lucid dream. IF you get lucid for five seconds, it was still a lucid dream, just one where you were only lucid for five seconds.
[17:12] <A^dreamer168> I checked out ur podcast
[17:12] <%Naiya> hehe yeah ;D
[17:12] <%Naiya> You do not have to have ANY control over the dream whatsoever for it to be a lucid dream.
[17:12] <%Naiya> Finally, you do not have to be able to think as clearly as you would in your waking life for it to be a lucid dream.
[17:12] <%Naiya> The last one is normally where a lot of people get confused.
[17:13] <A^dreamer168> QUESTION!
[17:13] <%Naiya> Go
[17:13] <A^dreamer168> How clearly should you be able to think?
[17:13] <%Naiya> Clearly enough to go "hey, this is a dream!"
[17:13] <%Naiya> and that's about it. haha.
[17:13] <%Naiya> I know that seems counterintuitive.
[17:14] <A^dreamer168> *faceslaps myself
[17:14] <%Naiya> LaBerg has done a lot of research on why we don't always think logically or clearly even in lucids.
[17:14] <%Naiya> Most of the time how clearly you think and how aware you are will vary not only from dream to dream, but from moment to moment within a dream.
[17:15] <%Naiya> This is why it's VERY important to not JUST get lucid. You want to cultivate a habit of constantly trying to think critically and logically. You want to be aware of the present and its possibilities.
[17:16] <%Naiya> That is also why when you RC, you want to actually force yourself to think logically, not just go "am I dreaming? nope!"
[17:17] <%Naiya> So to sum it up, the only requirement is knowing it's a dream.
[17:18] <%Naiya> How long the dream lasts, how clearly you think and how much control you have are all completely different skills you will have to build up.
[17:19] <%Naiya> So moving on to the applications of LDing.
[17:20] <%Naiya> Most commonly people use LDing for wish fulfillment or entertainment
[17:20] <%Naiya> Am I right in assuming everyone here is mainly getting into LDing for that?
[17:20] <xiper> Thats my goal
[17:20] <Hidden> Pretty much, at least for now.
[17:20] <@Jeff777> Mine as well (If I'm supposed to speak) :p
[17:20] <%Naiya> hehe no problem. It never gets old really.
[17:20] <%Naiya> You can speak Jeff. haha.
[17:21] <@Jeff777> ^^
[17:21] <%Naiya> I've heard people on the forums and other places refer to Lding as a hobby. While that can be true for most of us, there ARE actually some very practical applications of lucid dreaming.
[17:21] <A^dreamer168> For me, I would like to understand the spiritual and healing properties these dreams have
[17:21] <%Naiya> very cool I don't think you will be disappointed.
[17:22] <A^dreamer168> I mean I would like to fulfill my wishes
[17:23] <A^dreamer168> But that also icludes spiritual things
[17:23] <%Naiya> Nothing wrong with that I'm of the same mind.
[17:23] <%Naiya> The most obvious application is banishing nightmares. If you know it's a dream, you can turn around and face your nightmare with no fear (hopefully).
[17:24] <%Naiya> Like I mentioned before, if you are not thinking clearly, even though you know it's only a nightmare you still may believe that you can be physically hurt or killed.
[17:24] <%Naiya> Dream pain is so realistic that it's no wonder we do think like that sometimes.
[17:24] <xiper> QUESTION!
[17:24] <%Naiya> In any case, if a nightmare is confronted (and there are many ways to do this which can't be covered now), a lot of times that nightmare will never return.
[17:24] <%Naiya> go
[17:25] <xiper> What exactly is dream pain?... if hurt in a dream will it be as real as in real life when LDing?
[17:26] <%Naiya> without getting too deep into physiology, pain is something we get from pain receptors throughout our body which transmit a signal to our brains telling us something hurt.
[17:26] <%Naiya> the brain can actually trick itself into getting false signals when we dream or hallucinate.
[17:26] <%Naiya> so basically dream pain can potentially feel identical to real pain.
[17:27] <xiper> .... wow.... ok sy go on
[17:27] <%Naiya> generally, if say you get shot in the back in a dream and have never been shot before...it won't be realistic because your mind has no way of knowing exactly how it will feel
[17:27] <%Naiya> but it'll still probably hurt like hell
[17:27] <xiper> ahh..
[17:28] <%Naiya> So another application of LDing is creativity.
[17:28] <%Naiya> So many works of art, stories, melodies, and even scientific ideas have come from dreams, lucid or not.
[17:28] <A^dreamer168> Fuseli
[17:29] <A^dreamer168> The Nightmare
[17:29] <%Naiya> Yup. If you want inspiration for something, you can get lucid and look for it in a dream. You'll be surprised at how easy it is to coem up with creative ideas.
[17:30] <%Naiya> Robot Butler for example uses his dreams to help come up with new designs for buildings
[17:30] <xiper> Wow.. Awsome
[17:30] <A^dreamer168> So...LDing is like a muse
[17:30] <%Naiya> yes
[17:30] <@Jeff777> hm
[17:31] <Hidden> QUESTION! (two actually...)
[17:31] <%Naiya> Now we're getting into something a little less scientific. Spiritual and healing uses for dreams.
[17:31] <%Naiya> Go ahead hidden
[17:31] <Hidden> What is Fuseli/The Nightmare?
[17:31] <xiper> Ya, I didnt get that
[17:31] <A^dreamer168> Here
[17:31] <Hidden> And... do I really have to type "question" in all caps? It feels wrong.
[17:32] <A^dreamer168> I can get a link
[17:32] <%Naiya> it's a famous painting
[17:32] <%Naiya> http://artchive.com/viewer/z.html
[17:32] == pllplp [[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[17:32] <%Naiya> lol, it's just easier for me to see in my wall of text. ^_^;
[17:32] <%Naiya> welcome
[17:32] <pllplp> sorry for bein late
[17:33] <Hidden> The link didn't work.
[17:33] <%Naiya> no prob. if you can stay after I'll cover what you missed when class is over.
[17:33] <xiper> *Points behind hand* Hes late... lol JK welcome
[17:33] <%Naiya> http://ilovehorror.files.wordpress.c..._nightmare.jpg
[17:33] <@Jeff777> Pink slip anyone?
[17:33] <%Naiya> hehe
[17:33] <A^dreamer168> Sp is supposed to have served as the inspiration
[17:33] <%Naiya> I believe it
[17:33] <Hidden> Oh wow, that's creepy. o.o
[17:33] <@Jeff777> I've always found that picture to be a source of fear.
[17:34] <xiper> Yes...
[17:34] <%Naiya> Anywho...you can use LDing for healing, understanding yourself, and for spiritual purposes. Like I said these are all very subjective and personal things: unproven but still things some people use LDing for.
[17:35] <%Naiya> For example if you have a certain phobia, you can try to find out wher eit came from through LDing, or what it represents. You can even try to cure yourself of this phobia.
[17:36] <%Naiya> Robert Waggoner, a dream researcher, has done some work on cases where people have seemingly healed themselves mentally/emotionally/physically through healing themselves in lucid dreams.
[17:37] <%Naiya> And finally, for those who are interested, lucid dreams can be used as a gateway to other states of consciousness, finding spiritual answers, finding their place in the universe... ect.
[17:38] == RequiemForADream [[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[17:38] <%Naiya> Welcome
[17:38] <@Jeff777> Hey requiem, take a seat in the back.**The very back.**In the uber late section of the class.
[17:38] <pllplp> next to me
[17:38] <%Naiya> xD
[17:38] <Hidden> hello. lol Jeff
[17:38] <RequiemForADream> Hey, sorry.**Winter storm...
[17:38] <%Naiya> actually I'm just happy most everyone eventually got here haha.
[17:38] <%Naiya> anywho... xD
[17:39] <xiper> Hey quit skippen and get in your seat Welcome
[17:39] <%Naiya> How interested is the class in learning about the history of LDing?
[17:39] <%Naiya> Because we're running a bit short on time so I'm thinking I can just give you the short version.
[17:39] <A^dreamer168> Sure
[17:40] <xiper> I think learning anything has do with learning its past...but short is good haha
[17:40] <Hidden> Hmm... I'd be okay with the short version. I'm not much of a fan of history.
[17:40] <A^dreamer168> Eeden?
[17:40] <Hidden> Eeden?\
[17:40] <A^dreamer168> I will let Professor Naiya explain
[17:41] <%Naiya> hehe yes
[17:41] <%Naiya> I'll get to him in a sec.
[17:41] <%Naiya> or rather I can start there and just sorta branch out. haha
[17:41] <A^dreamer168> Who's first?
[17:41] <%Naiya> Frederik van Eeden was a 20th century dutch psychiatrist who coined the term lucid dreaming
[17:42] <%Naiya> originally, "lucid" was a word used for a patient who was mentally stable, alert...NOT crazy. ;D
[17:42] <%Naiya> But mankind has been lucid dreaming long before that.
[17:44] <%Naiya> Tibetan monks for example have been practicing dream yoga for what...couple of thousand years?
[17:44] <%Naiya> Aside from them, a lot of animistic and ancient shamanistic cultures used lucid dreaming as part of their religious beliefs, to convene with the spirits for example.
[17:46] <%Naiya> Ther are numerous references in Western culture throughout the ages which I will wpare you guys from.
[17:46] <RequiemForADream> Do you have a list of recommended reading?
[17:46] <%Naiya> History of Dreaming by Robert Moss is great if you want the history.
[17:46] <%Naiya> I can post some others later if you wish.
[17:47] <Hidden> DV has a list of books about LDing, right?
[17:47] <Hidden> In the tutorials section?
[17:47] <%Naiya> I believe so yes
[17:47] <%Naiya> Unfortunately because Lding and dreams in general have had religious connotations, the Western world did not accept it as scientific until a few decades ago.
[17:49] <%Naiya> Freud began to interpret drerams after the turn of the century, but as we know, much of his work has been discredited by now. Jung came soon after, coming up with a lot of intriguing ideas about collective unconscious, archetypes, and parts of the mind which manifest in dreams.
[17:50] <%Naiya> By the mid 50's and 60's, LDing was not considered scientific. Most scientists argued that lucid dreams were merely "dreams about lucid dreaming"
[17:51] <%Naiya> Sadly this was accepted until Laberg and a few others began doing experiments in labs proving the validity of lucid dreams.
[17:51] <A^dreamer168> How did tht work?
[17:51] <%Naiya> Well, basically they argued that sleep is defined as not being conscious
[17:51] <%Naiya> therefore it was impossible to be conscious and be asleep at the same time.
[17:52] <A^dreamer168> ohhh
[17:52] <xiper> if only they knew haha
[17:52] <%Naiya> yes
[17:52] <%Naiya> Meanwhile, the people didn't buy it.
[17:52] <beachgirl> hi there
[17:53] <beachgirl> just to let you know i'm here...
[17:53] <%Naiya> However, their only source for LDing information was the New Age phenomenon.
[17:53] <%Naiya> hehe, hi beachgirl
[17:53] <beachgirl> hi...
[17:53] <Hidden> Hey.
[17:53] <beachgirl> sorry to be late, got the time zones confused
[17:53] <xiper> Hello
[17:53] <%Naiya> So this might help explain why LDing has such a strong connection to being "woo" and "new age" and "occult"
[17:54] <%Naiya> No worries, the entire chat log WILL be posted later for those who were late or missed, and I'll be here for another hour or so to answer any questions
[17:54] <beachgirl> :-)
[17:54] <%Naiya> In any case, luckily, after LaBerg and others proved lucid dreaming to be scientific, we were able to see some objective information and now we may use it in whatever context suits our interest.
[17:54] <%Naiya> In a nutshell, there's your history.
[17:55] <Hidden> w00t
[17:55] <beachgirl> do the tibetans practice lucid dreaming?
[17:55] <%Naiya> beachgirl: yes they do, very much so.
[17:55] <beachgirl> how long have they been doing this for?
[17:55] <%Naiya> they even meditate within their lucid dreams.
[17:55] <%Naiya> Over a thousand years I believe
[17:56] <beachgirl> wow...
[17:56] <xiper> Wow haha thats like playing a game inside of a video game
[17:56] <%Naiya> The Tibetans believe that dreams are a "bardo" state--an in between state.
[17:56] <RequiemForADream> They are lucid in all stages of sleep, correct?
[17:56] <%Naiya> So they believe that if they can always be lucid in DREAMS....they will be lucid in the BIG bardo state--death.
[17:56] <Hidden> They use LD's to meditate? That would take some major discipline.
[17:56] <@Jeff777> Indeed.**o.o
[17:56] <%Naiya> Requiem: yes, the masters have been shown to be conscious throughout the entire sleep cycle which is pretty amazing.
[17:57] <@Jeff777> What kind of training would they undergo to make it to this "mastery" level?
[17:57] <xiper> That it is
[17:57] <%Naiya> This has been proven in lab tests on yogis who were willing to prove it (learned this in my college transpersonal psych class).
[17:57] <@Jeff777> Certainly they learned some kind of fundamentals in childhood to prepare for this.
[17:57] <%Naiya> Jeff: years and years and years of discipline.
[17:58] <%Naiya> And yeah they usually start very young.
[17:58] <%Naiya> That's pretty much it for the class lecture, BTW. We just barely covered everything xD
[17:58] <%Naiya> Any other questions or free discussion is welcome
[17:58] <beachgirl> i have a question...
[17:58] <%Naiya> And for those of you who were late, would you like me to go over what you missed?
[17:58] <%Naiya> beachgirl: yeah?
[17:59] <beachgirl> ok sure!
[17:59] <xiper> haha 1 hour and we only learned the title
[17:59] <Hidden> eh?
[17:59] <%Naiya> yeah hehe
[18:00] <A^dreamer168> I still think you should teach a dream yoga class on DV
[18:00] <xiper> umm as if the class was a book.... as in "we only scrached the surface"
[18:00] <Hidden> What exactly is dream yoga? Meditating?
[18:00] <%Naiya> I will probably do that in the future, although I'm not sure I'm qualified to teach it in the religious context because I'm not buddhist.
[18:00] <A^dreamer168> A system of continuous reality checks
[18:01] <RequiemForADream> There is a long list of books in the tutorial section.**I'd like to get recommendations.
[18:01] <%Naiya> dream yoga follows a number of disciplines, but yeah meditation/awareness is probably the top of the list.
[18:01] <RequiemForADream> You can post it later, of course.
[18:01] <%Naiya> I can post my book list later
[18:01] <@Jeff777> Very interesting stuff
[18:01] <@Jeff777> be sure to save the log! xD
[18:01] <beachgirl> is there a correlation between meditation and lucid dreaming skills?
[18:01] <A^dreamer168> I don't think you would need to though
[18:01] <%Naiya> beachgirl: oh I would think so, yes.
[18:01] <beachgirl> like on any given night or week or month?
[18:01] <%Naiya> Being aware all the time WILL get you lucid. A LOT.
[18:02] <beachgirl> what is your definition of being aware?
[18:02] <%Naiya> awareness in the sense of meditation practices....so basically mindfulness, being aware of the present...
[18:03] <%Naiya> "lose your mind and come to your senses..." ect.
[18:03] <@Jeff777> Is there a certain kind of meditation practice that can help one become aware at all times?
[18:04] <RequiemForADream> Also note, meditation does not simply mean sitting on the floor with your eyes closed like a lot of people might assume.
[18:04] <%Naiya> in dream yoga, the traditional meditation is focusing on the first letter of the alphabet. xD
[18:04] <%Naiya> lol yup requiem. it is actually very hard.
[18:04] <beachgirl> awareness is one of those funny things... i think i am aware until i check in with myself, and find there's always miles to go...
[18:05] <%Naiya> yeah...I mean like I said, I'm not an expert in meditation by far, so if you want to get deeper into it, you can look it up online or find a book on it (I can add some to the booklist).
[18:05] <xiper> Naiya let me ask you something...
[18:06] *xiper* yup?
[18:06] <%Naiya> So...for those who missed the first part of class, want me to go over it? xD
[18:06] <xiper> I have only had 1 LD and that was months ago... What are signs that you are geting better.. how can you get better.. and do we all start with maybe 1-2 LDs a month and work up to a few a night?..(sy more then one question)
[18:07] <beachgirl> i'm up for doing this
[18:07] <pllplp> ya, dont need to go into complete detail but the highlights might help catch me up
[18:07] <xiper> sy to hold you all up : )
[18:08] *xiper* hmm you know it took me months to get to having 1-3**month. we're all different. but in your case...I'm thinking it's best to post this in your DVA journal and then I can ask you some questions and give you a more detailed response than I can here o.o
[18:08] <%Naiya> okay xD
[18:08] <%Naiya> So a lucid dream is just knowing you're dreaming.
[18:08] <%Naiya> You do not have to intentionally induce a lucid dream for it to be lucid. Many lucid dreams are completely spontaneous.
[18:08] <%Naiya> You do not have to be lucid throughout the entire dream for it to be a lucid dream.
[18:08] <%Naiya> You do not have to have ANY control over the dream whatsoever for it to be a lucid dream.
[18:08] <%Naiya> You do not have to be able to think as clearly as you would in your waking life for it to be a lucid dream.
[18:09] <pllplp> however much maditation may be benifical towards lucid dreaming would it be a recomended as in time worth investment in increasing lucid dreaming
[18:09] <pllplp> ?
[18:09] <%Naiya> the ONLY criteria for being a lucid is just knowing it's a dream.
[18:09] <A^dreamer168> byes
[18:09] <%Naiya> IF you have the time to meditate and you are willing to wait a while before you really benefit from it...yes I recommend it, definitely.
[18:10] <%Naiya> thanks dreamer see you next time.
[18:10] == A^dreamer168 [[email protected]] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
[18:10] <RequiemForADream> If I've got a goal of 1 LD a week and I became lucid but woke up, meaning a 5 second lucid.**Have I met my goal?
[18:11] <%Naiya> And as for the other part of class--applications of dreaming: banishing nightmares, creative and artistic solutions, spiritual meaning or spiritual healing, problem solving, finding out more about yourself and going through your own issues.
[18:11] <RequiemForADream> Or must there be a certain quality?
[18:11] <%Naiya> In a nutshell, that's what you guys missed. But try to read the chatlog anyway lol.
[18:11] <%Naiya> Requiem: yes you have
[18:11] <%Naiya> a five second lucid is STILL a lucid
[18:11] <Hidden> Wow, that was quick.
[18:12] <%Naiya> not a great one lol...but yeah it's lucid.
[18:12] <beachgirl> sometimes i have a dream where i know i'm dreaming but i am too lazy or "bought into" the dream to take action so i just watch from the sidelines; i guess that qualifies then as being lucid?
[18:12] <%Naiya> hehe okay. xD let's go over some scenarios in a sec. lol.
[18:12] <Hidden> My LD count would be much smaller if 5-second lucids didn't count...
[18:13] <%Naiya> beachgirl: you knew you were dreaming so YES it was a lucid. You weren't thinking clearly though, so it might be called a low level lucid or low quality lucid.
[18:13] <%Naiya> aww hidden xD yeah.
[18:13] <beachgirl> like the other day when i didn't want to lose my place in some line i was waiting in in a dream...
[18:13] <%Naiya> for most of us, those first lucids are pretty dang short. haha.
[18:13] <beachgirl> that happens to me a lot
[18:13] <Hidden> I was expecting the first few to be short.**The first 60 seems a bit excessive. o.0
[18:14] <%Naiya> lol yeah...sounds like you could benefit from dream stabilization.
[18:14] <%Naiya> we will be covering that so don't worry ^^;
[18:14] <Hidden> Yes, I most definitely could.
[18:14] <Hidden> That's good.
[18:15] <%Naiya> OK so....just a hypothetical
[18:15] <%Naiya> You do a reality check in a dream, and you conclude that you are dreaming. However, you get so excited that you wake up.
[18:15] <%Naiya> what do you guys think? lucid dream or not?
[18:15] <pllplp> yes lucid
[18:15] <Hidden> yup
[18:15] <%Naiya> Right
[18:15] <beachgirl> yes
[18:16] <%Naiya> how about another one
[18:16] <%Naiya> You have a false awakening, do a reality check, and conclude that you are dreaming. You run off to explore the area, but you get lost in the dream plot and completely forget that you are in a dream.
[18:16] <%Naiya> lucid or no?
[18:16] <pllplp> would consider it disapointing
[18:16] <RequiemForADream> lucid
[18:16] <%Naiya> lol, disappointing yeah
[18:16] <pllplp> sometimes i am ok with getting lost in the plot
[18:16] <%Naiya> yeah
[18:16] <%Naiya> This is still a lucid dream, but one in which you have lost your lucidity.
[18:17] <%Naiya> You recognize one of your dream signs and realize that you are dreaming. You decide that you want to try a classic--flying. You run to your balcony, climb up and jump. Only to fall flat on the ground. Even thought you know it's a dream and that you should be able to fly, you just can't seem to get up in the air.
[18:17] <%Naiya> lucid or no?
[18:17] <RequiemForADream> lucid
[18:17] <beachgirl> lucid
[18:17] <pllplp> ya
[18:17] <%Naiya> woot you guys are lucky, I pretty much gave you the anwers first.
[18:17] <%Naiya> the people in here earlier didn't have that xD
[18:18] <%Naiya> Right--being lucid doesn't mean you'll have control.
[18:18] <%Naiya> okay last one
[18:18] <%Naiya> You realize you are dreaming and decide that you want to do the Dreamviews Task of the Month. You can't remember what it was, so you decide to log onto your computer to find out. It does not occur to you that your dream computer will be inaccurate. You do the task you find on your dream computer and wake yourself up so you can record the dream without forgetting any details.
[18:18] <%Naiya> lucid or no?
[18:18] <beachgirl> lucid
[18:18] <pllplp> ya
[18:18] <@Jeff777> Mhm
[18:18] <%Naiya> good job xD
[18:18] <%Naiya> his is a perfect example of a lucid dream with very low clarity of thought and illogical thinking, also known as a low-level or low-quality lucid dream. Being lucid does not always guarantee that you will think clearly. This is why it is very important to keep thinking logically even AFTER a successful reality check.
[18:19] <beachgirl> i'd like to know how many reality checks one has to do in order for this to work? i've heard everything from 5 to 100 a day
[18:19] <%Naiya> With RCing, it's all about quality, not quantity.
[18:20] <%Naiya> I mean if you do a thousand "am I dreaming? nope!" RCs, it won't do shit.
[18:20] <%Naiya> Those are probably the most common things people get confused about.
[18:21] <%Naiya> The problem with RCs is that a lot of times, people just mindlessly go “am I dreaming?” and without even considering it, they think “no,” and then totally forget about it. This does absolutely nothing to help you get lucid.
[18:21] <%Naiya> A good RC is more like “I think this is real because I remember waking up, getting dressed and driving here. I can remember in detail what I had for breakfast. When I toss a pen into the air and try to make it float, I can't do it.”
[18:21] <%Naiya> You're really thinking logically and challanging yourself to think about where you are, what you were last doing, how your got there AND whether or not that makes sense.
[18:22] <pllplp> i try not to think "no" more like i don't think its likely cause nothing would piss me off more then being in a dream and saying no
[18:22] <%Naiya> When you RC, it's actually better to start by assuming you ARE dreaming first--and then using logic to decide why you can't be dreaming.
[18:22] <pllplp> its ok to think maybe irl then think no in a dream
[18:22] <%Naiya> yeah
[18:23] <beachgirl> why does doing this carry over into dreams?
[18:23] <%Naiya> well, when we do something a lot, we internalize it...and it become habit. we begin to do it without even thinking about it.
[18:24] <%Naiya> so when you first learn to drive a car, it's very hard because you have to really be conscious of what you're doing and make a big effort to learn.
[18:24] <%Naiya> But eventually it just becomes another thing you do every day without needing to worry about it.
[18:24] <beachgirl> so is there any magic number then of quality RCs to do starting out?
[18:24] <%Naiya> RCing (and many other things like MILDing) becomes just like that--just as you might dream of driving, you will dream of RCing and hopefully that will get you lucid
[18:25] <%Naiya> Magic number...hmmm. xD
[18:25] <%Naiya> I would honestly not base it on a number of random RCs.
[18:25] <%Naiya> Instead I reccomend trying to base your RC on some sort of trigger.
[18:25] <%Naiya> For example every time you check the time--check it two or three times. Did the numbers fluctuate? They usually do in a dream!
[18:26] <%Naiya> Or every time you walk through a door you RC.
[18:26] <%Naiya> And of course every time you encounter a dreamsign.
[18:26] <%Naiya> The last thing probably being the most effective.
[18:27] <%Naiya> IMO, RCing is best used when it's in conjuntion with another technique, like MILD. Using it alone can make things pretty hard.
[18:27] <RequiemForADream> Dreamsign, anything that you consider odd or out of place and reoccurring dream themes?
[18:27] <%Naiya> yup, basically
[18:27] <beachgirl> so if dogs are a dreamsign for me, MILD about dogs then
[18:27] <%Naiya> a dreamsign can be a person, thing, place, situation that happens in your dreams.
[18:28] <%Naiya> there you go
[18:28] <beachgirl> and do RCs on dogs, too
[18:28] <RequiemForADream> Now you are talking cataloging dream signs into 4 categories according to EWOLD?
[18:28] <pllplp> dosent need to be unusuall
[18:28] <%Naiya> exactly
[18:28] <pllplp> might work better if it isnt
[18:28] <RequiemForADream> A "leg to stand on"?
[18:28] <beachgirl> dreamsigns fascinate me... is that the unconscious trying to reach out to us and help us LD, do you think?
[18:29] <%Naiya> well you don't need to catalogue them that way, it's just easier to
[18:29] <RequiemForADream> What do you mean, Naiya?
[18:30] <%Naiya> beachgirl: oooh that's a good question. Strictly speaking, there is no scientific basis that our dreaming mind WANTS us to be lucid
[18:30] <%Naiya> But, for example I have DCs who get me lucid all the time because they want to.
[18:30] <beachgirl> it seems that way - otherwise why would we have dreamsigns?
[18:30] <%Naiya> Requiem: well for example I have a DJ program and it classifies dreamsigns in mostly those four categories, although it also adds emotions and I think one other thing.
[18:31] <Hidden> I want to get some DC's who will make me lucid. =D
[18:31] <%Naiya> Just easier to click "places" and then "school" and bam, there's all my school dreams so I can see when I had them
[18:31] <RequiemForADream> Do you have tips on creating a character or a DG to help you become lucid more often?
[18:31] <RequiemForADream> What program is that?
[18:32] <%Naiya> Requiem: Hmm...I can't say for sure what works but I can maybe help you classify DCs so that you can ask help from the ones who are most likely to be helpful.
[18:32] <%Naiya> program's called "dreamdiary" but I think it's MAc only.
[18:32] <beachgirl> yes -**i want to meet some helpful DCs too
[18:32] <Hidden> What do you think about dream guides?
[18:33] <%Naiya> Hidden: Dream guides...I have one.
[18:33] <Hidden> Do you think you could make one up, or would that be like cheating?
[18:33] <%Naiya> You know...mine just sort of came on his own so I really don't know how the whole DG thing even works.
[18:34] <%Naiya> I think it's possible to create or summon one but it basically depends on your personal belief system.
[18:34] <Hidden> Makes sense.
[18:34] <%Naiya> It's one of those things where I could only be useful in giving my own opinion/beliefs/experiences
[18:35] <xiper> I would love to meet my DG but I need to get better at LDing first haha : P
[18:35] <%Naiya> anywho this is my own personal way of classifying DCs.
[18:35] <%Naiya> yeah xD
[18:35] <Hidden> ditto xiper
[18:35] <beachgirl> it seems dreamsigns change... i've noticed some old ones have not come up for a while but new ones do
[18:35] <%Naiya> dreamsigns do change...yup o.o
[18:36] <%Naiya> that's why keeping a DJ is so important.
[18:36] <%Naiya> Do first of all I see what "Extras" --these are like extras in a movie. They are just sort of "there" and they either don't speak or only speak in gibberish.
[18:36] <%Naiya> so*
[18:37] <%Naiya> Then I have the "ghosts/dreamers" -- these DCs seem intelligent but they are almost like nonlucid dreamers. They just go about their little dream lives as if it were reality, they don't like being bothered, and they are generally not helpful.
[18:37] <%Naiya> the "dreamers" generally can't fly or do anything, BUT if I tell them it's a dream, I can sometimes teach them to fly or they will insist that THEY are the dreamer and I'm the one in the dream.
[18:37] <Hidden> Oh good, I was starting to think you weren't going to explain it 'cause there was a pause. ^^
[18:38] <%Naiya> hehe
[18:38] <RequiemForADream> ha
[18:39] <%Naiya> The I have the "guides" who basically ALWAYS know what's up, even when I'm not lucid. So they can get me lucid and they can always fly and do all kinds of stuff. Those are the ones that can be helpful if I need to learn something or go somewhere or whatever.
[18:39] <xiper> What I dont understand is why I dont have any "real" dreams... like about my day or about something meaningful.... Most of my dreams are just a mix of stupid shit like video games, movies, family and what not
[18:39] <%Naiya> ohh yeah, you mean no dreams in the first person?
[18:40] <xiper> well I never have dreams in first person....the only time i have is in my first LD
[18:40] <xiper> my only LD so far
[18:41] <%Naiya> hmm wow o.o
[18:41] <%Naiya> so you have some pretty low quality dreams.
[18:41] <Hidden> I had one dream where I switched from 1st to 3rd and then back again.**But wow, you never have 1st person dreams?
[18:41] <xiper> well..
[18:41] <%Naiya> I have them early in the night or when I'm stressed but pretty much they're always first person. o.o
[18:41] <xiper> Its more or less like I just watch what happens...like a movie
[18:41] <%Naiya> mhm...so 3rd person dreams. wow that sucks. D:
[18:42] <%Naiya> but take heart because I think there IS a way to help that. xD
[18:42] <xiper> I hope! lol you got me worryed
[18:42] <%Naiya> when you go to bed at night, what are your thoughts as you get in bed, lay down and go to sleep?
[18:43] <xiper> I think about all kinds of things....game, things that happened that day, girls (im in high school, lay off lol) everything
[18:43] <%Naiya> hehe. xD yeah.
[18:43] <%Naiya> That's pretty much what I expected.
[18:44] <%Naiya> So basically...when you go to bed at night...try NOT to think about those things.
[18:44] <xiper> hmm really?
[18:44] <%Naiya> for example if you have a test the next day or you're thinking "oh damn I need to remember to do __" and stuff, that really screws up your dreams.
[18:45] <%Naiya> What really helps me is imagining a box or a well beside my bed and throwing all my daily/mundane thoughts down there. I know that when I wake up they'll be waiting for me again.
[18:45] <xiper> wow... I always use it to go to bed... I just drift off while thinking of things
[18:45] <%Naiya> When it comes to the REALLY nagging thoughts I get up and jot them down in my dream journal so I can forget them guilt-free.
[18:45] <%Naiya> So...instead of thinking about daily things before bed...try to think about your dreams instead.
[18:46] <Hidden> Can't you use that sort of things to induce certain dreams though?**Like if you had a physics test the next day and you studied right before bed and thought about formulas while falling asleep, wouldn't that help you do better the next day?
[18:46] <xiper> So you should go to bed thought-free?
[18:46] <%Naiya> Think about the kinds of dreams you want to have. Imagine yourself in a lucid dream, flying around, going somewhere, ect.
[18:46] <xiper> Wow...thats heavy.. I really wnat to try that!
[18:46] <%Naiya> BTW this is basically a MILD but I figure you might as well do MILD on top so you can maybe get lucid from it too, lol xD
[18:46] <xiper> *want
[18:47] <xiper> Ok..thanks! that really helps... I always wondered why my dreams suck
[18:47] <%Naiya> Hidden: There have been studies on this--I've been in one of them!
[18:47] <beachgirl> is this the same as dream incubation?
[18:47] <Hidden> Really?**How did that go?
[18:47] <%Naiya> Yes, it IS dream incubation
[18:48] <%Naiya> MILD is basically a LUCID dream incubation.
[18:48] <RequiemForADream> I keep this story in mind.**http://workingwithinsight.wordpress....a-woman-story/
[18:48] <%Naiya> Well, basically the one I was in we were given a hard problem before bed each night and had to come up with a creative solution through a lucid dream. I got most of them (I think!) so I think it went all right.
[18:49] <%Naiya> ooh good story.
[18:49] <Hidden> cool
[18:49] <xiper> So wait... I have only had 3rd person... what exactly is 1st person... so I know when or if I get to see one
[18:50] <%Naiya> But honestly I study for physics before bed and it doesn't seem to help my score, LOL.
[18:50] <Hidden> And yeah, that is a good story
[18:50] <Hidden> haha
[18:50] <Hidden> You're in 1st person right now
[18:50] <Hidden> It's like walking around IRL
[18:50] <%Naiya> lol Xiper. yeah you're in the first person right now xD;
[18:51] <%Naiya> you can see your hands and feet, yes?
[18:51] <%Naiya> you can feel the cool air on your skin
[18:51] <xiper> ok so its the same as FPS or RPG Videogames.... First person is First person view where Third is thrid lol : P
[18:51] <%Naiya> seeing/hearing and being unable to interact with the world is third person.
[18:51] <%Naiya> yup!
[18:52] <xiper> *Head smack* lol ok sy
[18:52] <%Naiya> hehe no prob.
[18:52] <%Naiya> but seriously try MILD, like I said.
[18:52] <%Naiya> it should help the quality of your dreams over time.
[18:52] <xiper> OH I will!... and should anything happen I will tell you all
[18:52] <%Naiya> cool
[18:53] <beachgirl> how detailed or simple to make the MILD? which is better?
[18:53] <xiper> good question
[18:53] <Hidden> So if you were in a lucid dream, how would you go about switching between first and third person?
[18:53] <%Naiya> with MILD...the single most important thing is consistency--you really need to do it EVERY SINGLE night.
[18:53] <%Naiya> And even then it takes a little whil to start working.
[18:53] <%Naiya> That's why it's not so popular
[18:53] <%Naiya> BUT once you master it...you can LD at will.
[18:54] <@Jeff777> What would you consider "A while"?
[18:54] <%Naiya> weeks to months.
[18:54] <%Naiya> Hidden: ooh that is a tough one.
[18:54] <beachgirl> that's good to know
[18:54] <xiper> Not bad for LD at will
[18:54] <Hidden> But you don't have to WBTB for MILD?
[18:54] <%Naiya> I imagine it like jumping into a movie screen personally...it works for me.
[18:54] <%Naiya> But with dream control, a lot of times you just have to do some trial and error and find what works best for you.
[18:55] <%Naiya> you don't HAVE to WBTB for MILD....it just helps.
[18:55] <beachgirl> so is a good MILD pretty vague...I'm flying... or detailed...?
[18:55] <%Naiya> If you wake up naturally during the night you should always MILD when you go back to sleep.
[18:55] <xiper> sooo wake-up as if going to WILD but you MILD?
[18:55] <%Naiya> If you sleep through the night...just MILD before bed.
[18:55] <Hidden> But since you have to do it every night, could you just WBTB on the nights that you particularly want a lucid
[18:55] <Hidden> ?
[18:56] <%Naiya> MILD is incredibly vivid and stable
[18:56] <%Naiya> I know there is a big myth that WILDs are better--I've had both DILD and WILD so I can tell you that in general NEITHER is better quality.
[18:56] <%Naiya> xiper: yep, wake up and then MILD instead of WILD. much easier, too.
[18:57] <xiper> Let me ask this tho... if you train MILD every night...one place or dream and you start to get it... will changing the dream while LDing mass it up?
[18:57] <%Naiya> Hidden: yeah you could WBTB on those nights just like that.
[18:57] <xiper> *mess
[18:57] <%Naiya> Xiper: once you're lucid, you can change the dream to whatever you want even if you incubated a certain scenario
[18:58] <Hidden> Maybe I'll try that.**There are so many techniques!**The one that seems best to me is almost always the one I happen to be talking/reading about at the moment.
[18:58] <xiper> But should you incubat the same thing every MILD or change it?
[18:58] <%Naiya> MILD works best if you incubate the same thing.
[18:58] <%Naiya> but like I said you don't NEED to stick to that thing once you're lucid
[18:58] <%Naiya> For example!
[18:59] <%Naiya> You can MILD and incubate a false awakening where you get lucid.
[18:59] <Hidden> gah, I have to go eat dinner now. =/**Cya guys later.**Or maybe I'll just idle...
[18:59] <%Naiya> From that FA (false awakening), you can do whatever you like in the dream.
[18:59] <%Naiya> aw, cya hidden.
[18:59] <xiper> Bye Hidden cya
[18:59] <beachgirl> bbye...

Originally Posted by Naiya

Dream Journals: Each person should create their own dream journal thread in the Library.

I don't seem to locate the Library. Is it a hidden forum somewhere?

Originally Posted by smokyspirit

I don't seem to locate the Library. Is it a hidden forum somewhere?

It is a subforum within the DV Academy forum. You have to be logged in to see it or get inside.

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...splay.php?f=86

Thanks, Req!
I'm getting the "you do not have permission to access this page" message.
I'll contact Naiya to sort this out.

Spoiler for Class Two:

(no topic set)
[16:01] == Naiya [[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[16:01] == mode/#DVA [+h Naiya] by DreamBot
[16:47] == pllplp [[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[16:47] == Alex [[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[16:47] == mode/#DVA [+o Alex] by DreamBot
[16:47] <@Alex> dude
[16:47] <@Alex> every1 saw the channel password now
[16:47] <@Alex> -.-
[16:47] <%Naiya> eh? x_x lol.
[16:47] <%Naiya> when?
[16:48] <%Naiya> ... ._. lol.
[16:48] <@Alex> pllplp forgot the /
[16:48] <%Naiya> oh well...we can change it after today's class I guess lol.
[16:48] <%Naiya> and kick anyone who interrupts
[16:48] <@Alex> so every1 in #DV saw it now
[16:48] <@Alex> kk
[16:52] == xiper [[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[16:52] <%Naiya> hello
[16:52] <xiper> Hey Everyone
[16:53] <xiper> Thought**I would be in the right chat room on-time this time : P
[16:53] <%Naiya> hehe
[16:53] <pllplp> so where are the dva dream journals?
[16:53] <%Naiya> http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...splay.php?f=86
[16:53] <%Naiya> the Library, a subforum of DVA
[16:55] <xiper> Hey thanks for the reply on my DJ
[16:55] <%Naiya> let me know if you can view it.
[16:55] <%Naiya> no prob
[16:55] <%Naiya> that was a really awesome dream though, wow.
[16:55] <xiper> haha it was randomish but better then my others
[16:56] <%Naiya> yeah
[16:56] <%Naiya> I have zombie apocalypse dreams often
[16:56] <%Naiya> especially when I'm stressed
[16:56] <xiper> I think the anti-thought thing worked... Yes I hope to have one in a LD
[16:56] <%Naiya> yeah, sounds like it helped which is really cool
[16:57] <%Naiya> I had a lucid with zombies about a week ago.
[16:57] <%Naiya> it was...a bit disturbing, lol.
[16:57] <xiper> : ) I thought it might be
[16:57] <%Naiya> I was in a huge junkyard, and the only living person there, zombies everywhere
[16:57] <%Naiya> I flew up over them and started mocking them, ie "you dont exist, haha you can't get me" lol
[16:57] <%Naiya> but the smell was really bad...
[16:58] <%Naiya> it made me throw up (in the dream) ;_;
[16:58] <xiper> Hahaha thats awsome
[16:58] <%Naiya> the zombies scrambed to get under me so they could eat my puke D:
[16:58] <xiper> throwing up....not so much lol
[16:58] == RequiemForADream [[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[16:58] <%Naiya> and at that point I was like "....okay that was disturbing...but hey at least I'm safe up here"
[16:58] <xiper> Hey welcome
[16:58] <%Naiya> and then one of them jumped like 30 feet and almost grabbed me
[16:58] <%Naiya> so at that point I was like "oh fuck this" and woke myself up LOL
[16:58] <xiper> O . O
[16:59] <%Naiya> It was just not even worth it xD;
[16:59] <xiper> LOL
[16:59] <%Naiya> Hey Requiem!
[16:59] <%Naiya> Normally I set zombies on fire but I knew I wouldn't have time with them jumping that high
[16:59] <RequiemForADream> Hey.**Sounds like I missed a good story.
[16:59] <%Naiya> hehe
[16:59] == eternalstar01 [[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[17:00] <%Naiya> hi ES
[17:00] <eternalstar01> hey hey
[17:00] <xiper> Zombies...Fire....Throwing up.... Ya a great story : )
[17:00] <xiper> Hey there ES
[17:00] <%Naiya> yeah xD
[17:00] <%Naiya> we'll give it a few minutes before starting
[17:00] <xiper> kk\
[17:01] <%Naiya> I see hidden & dreamer online so they should be coming in
[17:01] <xiper> brb
[17:01] <%Naiya> or I could be really obnoxious and PM them...hmmm.
[17:01] == Hidden [[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[17:01] <Hidden> hey
[17:01] <eternalstar01> i always aim for obnoxious
[17:01] <%Naiya> welcome
[17:01] == A^dreamer168 [[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[17:01] <xiper> Back
[17:01] <A^dreamer168> Ha
[17:02] <A^dreamer168> right on time
[17:02] <%Naiya> oooh just in time hehe
[17:02] <Hidden> ^^
[17:02] <A^dreamer168> Wait just a minute
[17:02] <%Naiya> lol all right.
[17:02] <RequiemForADream> phllplp didn't do**his homework.
[17:02] <A^dreamer168> Back
[17:02] <%Naiya> lol, tsk tsk.
[17:02] <Hidden> More people are here this time ^^
[17:03] <xiper> tatal-tail : P
[17:03] <%Naiya> OK let's get started xD
[17:03] <xiper> kk
[17:03] <A^dreamer168> WOW this is a classroom
[17:03] <A^dreamer168> HeeHee
[17:03] <%Naiya> Today we're gonna talk about dream journaling (DJing), recall, and dream stabilization.
[17:04] <%Naiya> When it comes to dream journaling, the gold standard is always a paper journal or voice recorder within arm's reach of your bed.
[17:04] <%Naiya> we'll talk about why that helps recall later
[17:05] <%Naiya> Personally I use a very small spiral bound notebook and a pencil
[17:05] <%Naiya> There are a few obiouv and importnant things you need to note, and a few things that are optional, so helpful if you have time.
[17:05] <%Naiya> obvious*
[17:06] <%Naiya> First of all you want the date--I used to write down the date of the night I go to bed, but the standard is usually the date of the morning after, the date your dreams are recorded.
[17:06] <%Naiya> Either way works since at DV or on a paper journal it's all your own preference
[17:06] <%Naiya> The important thing is to just be consistent in your own system so others can understand it.
[17:07] <%Naiya> Secondary to the date are the times you slept. So you can put 2/6/10 11pm-8am for example
[17:07] <A^dreamer168> QUESTION!
[17:07] <%Naiya> yup?
[17:08] <A^dreamer168> Does that need to be done (the times one slept)?
[17:08] <%Naiya> hehe, as I was going to say, it's sort of optional
[17:09] <%Naiya> For example maybe you want to know if you get more lucids on nights your slept longer
[17:09] <A^dreamer168> Sorry
[17:09] == smokyspirit [[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[17:09] <%Naiya> welcome
[17:09] <RequiemForADream> COMMENT
[17:09] <%Naiya> hehe sure xD
[17:09] <xiper> *Breaks the "break incase of late student" box and pulls out the pink slip
[17:10] <RequiemForADream> I can see that be important for adjusting WBTB and WILD timing.**Some people find it easier to do after only a few hours of sleep, other after about 7 hours.
[17:10] <Hidden> oh gosh, do we have to announce comments too? xP
[17:10] <xiper> Im sure the times can help with many things
[17:10] <%Naiya> yup, exactly
[17:11] <smokyspirit> Hi All! (sorry for being late, weird permission issues, couldn't connect to the chat :-)
[17:11] <%Naiya> nah you can just comment lol.
[17:11] <%Naiya> as long as we don't get too sidetracked
[17:11] <Hidden> hehe, okay
[17:11] <%Naiya> OR for people experimenting with paranormal aspects of dreaming like shared dreams or clairvoyant dreams, knowing the time they had the dream might be very useful.
[17:11] <RequiemForADream> Any other applications for keeping times?
[17:11] <%Naiya> Other optional things can include what you ate that night, any special sppluements you used that day, movies you saw, ect.
[17:11] <%Naiya> Anything you think might affect your dreams
[17:12] <eternalstar01> I started using it because sometimes I have weird sleep times (like sleeping during the day for a night shift). I wanted to see if that would affect anything.
[17:12] <Hidden> For shared dreaming, I've heard that you don't actually have to know the time...
[17:12] <%Naiya> No other applications that come to mind. It really is an optional kind of thing
[17:12] <Hidden> I mean the two dreams don't have to be at the same time.
[17:13] <%Naiya> hidden: yeah, there are a lot of theories that shared dreamers don't need to be dreaming at the same time--but if you're a science geek like myself and you want to try experimenting with it, it's important to have as much data as possible.
[17:14] <Hidden> ah, good point.
[17:14] <%Naiya> I used to have a DJ where I'd write down daily things on one side and dreams on the other side of the page. That was very useful.
[17:14] <%Naiya> So for example if I aw a movie and had a dream about that movie I could look back weeks later and understand why I had that dream--OR, maybe I would dream about the movie a week later.
[17:15] <%Naiya> Those kinds of things can be really useful in helping you idenitfy what is a dreamsign that will be more likely to stick around and what dreamsigns probably won't come back
[17:15] <%Naiya> So again, optional but not necessary.
[17:15] <%Naiya> Although if you take supplements I highly recommend noting that.
[17:16] <%Naiya> So when it comes to writing down your dreams...especially if you have not so great recall or you're trying to do a form of DILD, you want to write down every dream you remember as soon as you wake up from it.
[17:17] <%Naiya> So, say you wake in the middle of the night with a dream. Jot down as much as you remember in as much detail as possible--because believe me, those details might seem like they're unforgettable but they can be gone by the time you get up to pee.
[17:17] <xiper> QUESTION!
[17:17] <%Naiya> yup?
[17:18] <xiper> They always say to record your dreams the sec you wakeup but do you really have to do it that soon?... I can get up and start my day then Vocie Record mine...
[17:18] <%Naiya> It's always best to record them ASAP.
[17:18] <xiper> hmm ok...
[17:19] <%Naiya> Now I know that isn't always practical, so if you can't do that, then what you CAN do is run through the dream in your head several times until you remember it very well and THEN record it right away.
[17:19] <%Naiya> so you can be going over the dream while you get dressed ect., then come back and record it.
[17:19] <xiper> k..**: )
[17:20] <%Naiya> But yeah...it IS best to record it right away and as soon as possible because the memories are still fresh in your mind.
[17:20] <eternalstar01> that's generally what i do. run it over in my head a few times, coffee, then write it down lol
[17:20] <%Naiya> yup
[17:21] <%Naiya> sometimes it helps to draw diagrams or pictures or symbols, too
[17:21] <Hidden> hehehe
[17:21] <Hidden> The pictures I draw in the middle of the night with the lights off when I'm half asleep are... gorgeous... =)
[17:22] <%Naiya> So anyway even if you have a DJ online, it's best to have a paper one too, unless you're able to jump on the computer in the morning.
[17:22] <%Naiya> ooh I'd like to see them sometime.
[17:23] <Hidden> Maybe I'll scan some.
[17:23] <RequiemForADream> You have to get on the computer in the morning to check out Shift's Daily DreamSign. ;D
[17:23] <%Naiya> yup
[17:23] <%Naiya> A private journal is nice because you never have to worry about offending people or worry about what they might think or things like that.
[17:23] <eternalstar01> i like having a paper one better. since it takes longer to write, and absorb the memory of the dream, sometimes i remember more. plus i just take more time on the smaller details because typing is just so faster. you can type off an entry, bang - you're done.
[17:24] <%Naiya> An online journal is great because it helps keep you motivated having people comment on your dreams, and people can help identify dreamsigns or maybe even help you understand your dreams better by offering an objective pov.
[17:24] <eternalstar01> that too
[17:24] <%Naiya> personally I have both
[17:24] <xiper> I tend to like Voice DJ because I can get me thought out easier
[17:24] <%Naiya> no reason not to keep some things private and share the rest
[17:24] <Hidden> I like writing them down on paper and then going over them again. It helps me remember more.
[17:25] <Hidden> Even though it's a bit of a pain.
[17:25] <%Naiya> yeah a voice recorder is great because it's so much easier and you can get all that detail out more quickly.
[17:25] <Hidden> I don't think I could keep a voice DJ organized.
[17:25] <%Naiya> Yahh the downside of a voice DJ is that it may be harder to find dreamsigns and common themes.
[17:26] <%Naiya> so each thing has its own pros and cons.
[17:26] <RequiemForADream> I've got a sugesstions you can comment on, Naiya.
[17:26] <smokyspirit> I often voice record mine and then transcribe it in the morning...
[17:26] <Hidden> Well, if you typed your voice DJ up later...
[17:26] *requiemforadream* yeah?
[17:26] <xiper> Thats what I try to do
[17:26] <%Naiya> yeah then that would work great
[17:26] <xiper> Bit of a pain tho...**
[17:27] <RequiemForADream> I keep a calendar at my desk with just dream titles on each day.**It is easy to look and say, "hey, I've had 3 school dreams this week..." and so on.
[17:27] <%Naiya> oooh that's a great idea
[17:27] <%Naiya> it really does help to give dreams a title or name
[17:27] <pllplp> if its a digital voice recorder they have software that is supposed to be able to parse and convert to txt
[17:27] <RequiemForADream> The DJ does the same thing but the calander is a quick look.**And I keep my list of goals there as well.
[17:27] <%Naiya> Robert Moss suggested that in his book, too.
[17:27] <%Naiya> Very cool
[17:28] <%Naiya> So...why record your dreams? Anyone?
[17:28] <Hidden> To remember them.
[17:28] <eternalstar01> It helps your recall become stronger
[17:28] <%Naiya> Why do you think it helps LDing?
[17:28] <Hidden> And find dream signs
[17:28] <smokyspirit> To identify dream signs...
[17:28] <A^dreamer168> To identify dreamsigns
[17:28] <eternalstar01> if you don't have recall, you could have a LD and forget you had one
[17:28] <A^dreamer168> Crud
[17:29] <xiper> what they said...lol
[17:29] <smokyspirit>
[17:29] <%Naiya> good answers
[17:29] == Jeff777 [[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[17:29] == mode/#DVA [+o Jeff777] by DreamBot
[17:29] <A^dreamer168> Hey Jeff
[17:29] <@Jeff777> hi
[17:29] <%Naiya> like we were talking about after class yesterday, DILD in particular involved training prospective memory--in other words "remembering to remember"
[17:30] <Hidden> Hola Jeff
[17:30]*** Jeff777 walks to the back of the classroom since he's late
[17:30] <eternalstar01> hey jeff
[17:30] <%Naiya> tsk tsk Jeff.
[17:30] <@Jeff777> Shh don't mind me, I don't want professor Naiya knowing I slipped in late
[17:30] <@Jeff777> Oh shucks **busted
[17:30] <A^dreamer168> Kida hard to do in a chat room
[17:30] <A^dreamer168> *Kinda
[17:30]*** eternalstar01 points at Jeff.
[17:31] <A^dreamer168> Hee Hee
[17:31] <%Naiya> So with DILD you're trying to get yourself to remember to RC in a dream, or remember to have a lucid dream or remember to remember you just fell asleep and now you must be dreaming.
[17:31] <A^dreamer168> QUESTION!
[17:31] <%Naiya> Keeping a dream journal is important for that because, like you all said, it tells you what triggers (dreamsigns) you want to try to use to "remember" to RC.
[17:31] <%Naiya> yup?
[17:32] <A^dreamer168> Isn't DILD only connected with RCs
[17:32] <%Naiya> Pretty much--it's a little confusing like that because straight DILD uses RCing during the day.
[17:32] <eternalstar01> that's half the battle I had a dream once where a DC RC'd and I thought, "Hey, I've never seen anyone else do a RC before!" humm dee dumm.... didn't do one myself...
[17:33] <A^dreamer168> oh
[17:33] <%Naiya> but for example MILD you don't RC at all during the day--however, technically you can be remembering to RC when you are dreaming only.
[17:33] <%Naiya> aww yeah xD
[17:34] <%Naiya> With some MILDs, though, you the dream just starts and you know it's a dream, period. Like when I did a MILD and wanted to go to Pandora for example.
[17:34] <xiper> QUESTION!
[17:34] <A^dreamer168> Or inside the Neverending Story
[17:34] <%Naiya> The dream just started with me in Pandora so of course I remembered "hey this is just where I wanted to be, awesome! Let's have some fun!" I didn't really need to RC because I knew I was in the dream immediately from being in Pandora.
[17:34] <%Naiya> Xiper: yup?
[17:35] <eternalstar01> QUESTION!
[17:35] <xiper> If you MILD on just one dream or place.... like lets say a neverending dasy field.... then shouldent you just RC on the flowers and always become Lucid?
[17:36] <%Naiya> In theory, yes. Like I said though, if you go there every night you really don't need to RC directly--you'll immediately know it's a dream from the get-go.
[17:36] <%Naiya> ES: go ahead?
[17:36] <eternalstar01> Was that partly dream incubation, Naiya?
[17:36] <%Naiya> yup, it was dream incubation
[17:36] <@Jeff777> Very interesting.
[17:37] <%Naiya> that's why I say MILD is similar to dream incubation
[17:37] <eternalstar01> i'm still working on that one. it's worked for me a couple of times (not to be lucid... but bleeding into a dream)
[17:37] <%Naiya> because in both cases you're going to bed and for example visualizing yourself in a certain dream.
[17:37] <%Naiya> yeah it takes a while to really stick so you gotta be patient.
[17:37] <Hidden> So you pretty much just learn to recognize that when your incubated dream becomes "real" then you're dreaming?
[17:38] <%Naiya> yup pretty much.
[17:38] <%Naiya> that kind of thing comes after a looooooot of practice.
[17:38] <%Naiya> But we'll get more into details of DILDs next week.
[17:38] <%Naiya> The other reason we DJ is, like you guys said, recall
[17:38] <%Naiya> Who cares if you get lucid if you can't remember it, right?
[17:39] <%Naiya> The more attention we give our dreams and the more effort we put into remembering them, the better our recall will get.
[17:39] <%Naiya> And for a lot of us, making more effort to pay attention to our dreams will give us more vivid dreams.
[17:40] <%Naiya> So there are some really important points to go over about recall
[17:40] <%Naiya> First of all, think about exactly what you do in the morning
[17:40] <%Naiya> When you wake up, what are the first thoughts you have?
[17:40] <eternalstar01> "Did I just wake up from a dream?"
[17:40] <%Naiya> hehe, good
[17:40] <Hidden> What was I just dreaming about?
[17:40] <xiper> Damn I wish it was the week-end...
[17:41] <Hidden> lol
[17:41] <%Naiya> The habit you want to be into is trying to think about what you were just doing, thinking or feeling.
[17:41] <A^dreamer168> Let's see what's on TV
[17:41] <A^dreamer168> That is what it is for me
[17:41] <%Naiya> the absolute WORST thing for recall is to wake up and go "omg I have to go to school/work, what am I gonna wear, ugh my breath smells horrible where's my toothbrush..."
[17:41] <A^dreamer168> But I gotcha
[17:42] <xiper> hmmm Thats something I can change
[17:42] <eternalstar01> (though lately i've been thinking "What the hell is that sound?" because i got a new cell = new alarm sound)
[17:42] <%Naiya> Because your poor dreams are still only in your short-term memory. Unless you give some effort to remember them, they'll be gone forever in only a few minutes a lot of the time.
[17:42] <%Naiya> lol ES
[17:43] <%Naiya> That's why it's crucial to try to remember (and hopefully journal) your dreams the moment you wake up.
[17:43] <eternalstar01> Oh! if I may suggest something for recall...
[17:43] <RequiemForADream> I read some good tips on DV.
[17:43] <%Naiya> Other things that help recall--stay in bed after your alarm goes and DON'T MOVE. Stay still for a minute, relax, and think about what you were just doing, thinking, feeling.
[17:43] <%Naiya> ES: sure
[17:43] <Hidden> Is it okay to walk across the room to turn off my alarm before recalling my dreams?
[17:43] <RequiemForADream> I was going to say that...
[17:43] == beachgirl [[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[17:44] <%Naiya> Hidden: it's really best to have your alarm next to your bed so you don't have to do that...
[17:44] <eternalstar01> I found something that works for me... an eye mask. If I wake up and it's "dark," then I'm able to focus more on the dream i just woke up from. If i don't wear it, then i see the light, and it starts zapping at my short term memory (like this morning)
[17:44] <%Naiya> but if it's not practical then yeah, try to think about your dreams as you get out of bed and turn off your alarm.
[17:44] <Hidden> But I won't wake up.
[17:44] <beachgirl> hi all, sorry i am late... major connection problem, here now!
[17:44] <%Naiya> oooh that's a very good tip ES.
[17:44] <@Jeff777> hey beach
[17:44]*** eternalstar01 waves at beachgirl
[17:45] <xiper> * Grabs a pink slip from the already broken "break incase of late student" box
[17:45] <Hidden> And the music distracts me from my dreams. "What was I just drea--ooh, I love this song!"
[17:45] <beachgirl> :-)
[17:45] <%Naiya> lol yeah
[17:45] <%Naiya> like I said if it's not practical, go turn off the alarm first
[17:45] <Hidden> okie dokie
[17:45] <%Naiya> A lot of these things are kind of "best case scenarios"
[17:45] <Hidden> and hi beachgirl
[17:46] <%Naiya> So you know what you should do if you CAN, but I know not all of us--even me--can do all these things.
[17:46] <beachgirl> WAVES~~~
[17:46] <%Naiya> hi beachgirl
[17:46] <xiper> btw Hey Beachgirl welcome
[17:46] <RequiemForADream> Get an alarm that turns itself off.**And I like that eye mask tip.
[17:46] <eternalstar01> if i have to wake up by a certain time in the AM, i give myself two alarms. one beside my bed to smack off instantly for recall. the other is at the real time to get out of bed - across the room.
[17:46] <Hidden> That's smart es
[17:46] <%Naiya> But yeah, if possible, try to get up a few minutes easlier than you need to so you have a few minutes to sit down, relax, think about your dreams and record them.
[17:47] <%Naiya> IDEALLY, you would wake up, turn off the alarm without moving much, relax in bed and go over what you remember. Then you'd grab a dream journal next to bed and jot it down before getting up. ;P
[17:47] <smokyspirit> But, of course, it's best to wake up naturally, without an alarm :-)
[17:47] <%Naiya> yeah two alarms is another good one. I used to do that when I was in high school
[17:48] <eternalstar01> yes, smoky
[17:48] <%Naiya> yeah waking naturally in a perfect world, hehe
[17:48] <beachgirl> is there an alarm that just beeps like, once or twice?
[17:48] <%Naiya> So anyone have the "morning amnesia"
[17:48] <A^dreamer168> I get up at really strangge times
[17:48] <eternalstar01> i did this morning
[17:48] <Hidden> the what?
[17:48] <%Naiya> where you wake up and go "who am I? where am I? wtf is going on?"
[17:49] <%Naiya> and then a few seconds you figure out you just woke up? hehe
[17:49] <Hidden> never had that happen
[17:49] <A^dreamer168> When I was a child
[17:49] <Hidden> That I can remember, anyway
[17:49] <xiper> Never
[17:49] <%Naiya> http://www.dilbert.com/strips/comic/1990-02-05/
[17:49] <%Naiya> hehe
[17:49] <A^dreamer168> I always would dream about a DC friend dying
[17:49] <%Naiya> Aw, that is sad, dreamer. ;(
[17:50] <A^dreamer168> My pillow was wet with tears
[17:50] <xiper> : (
[17:50] <%Naiya> ;__; awww!
[17:50] <eternalstar01> i don't usually forget who i am, but i often forget where i am when i wake up
[17:50]*** eternalstar01 hugs A^dreamer168
[17:50] <Hidden> aww =(
[17:50] <%Naiya> ES, me too sometimes it's such a weird feeling.
[17:51] <%Naiya> But anyway those are the basics of recall.
[17:51] <A^dreamer168> Funny thing is I could never remember their names
[17:51] <%Naiya> Since there's a whole class for recall and DJing I don't have to get too deep into it. hehe.
[17:51] <eternalstar01> i'm trying to recall a question i had
[17:51] <%Naiya> it's usually near impossible for me to remember DCs names.
[17:51] <A^dreamer168> Thanks guys
[17:52] <%Naiya> Hmm well...the last topic for the day is dream stabilization
[17:52] <eternalstar01> my DC's don't have names. i can never remember what they look like, either
[17:52] <%Naiya> Just going to give a few quick tips so if you get lucid you hopefully have enough to stay in the dream.
[17:52] <%Naiya> If you have blurri vision, you can try shouting "clarity now!"
[17:53] <%Naiya> Or you can try looking at an object close to your face for a minute or two, and then slowly pull the object away.
[17:53] <%Naiya> If the dream feels unstable, what helps me best is rubbing my hands or touching a dream object.
[17:53] <%Naiya> The important thing to remember is just keeping your mind on the dream senses and not the physical senses.
[17:54] <RequiemForADream> What is the difference?
[17:54] <Hidden> I always want to spell clarity with an extra i...
[17:54] <A^dreamer168> What do you mean by that?
[17:54] <%Naiya> IF you are getting excited and feel like the dream is fading...take some deep breaths and rub your hands together or touch the ground or something.
[17:55] <%Naiya> tell yourself this dream will keep going
[17:55] <%Naiya> if the vision fades, try "clarity now!"
[17:55] <%Naiya> Those are pretty much the basics of keeping the dream stable.
[17:55] <eternalstar01> interact with something in the dream environment
[17:55] <%Naiya> yup exactly.
[17:56] <RequiemForADream> QUESTION

[17:56] <eternalstar01> QUESTION ALSO
[17:56] <%Naiya> sure, go for it
[17:56] <RequiemForADream> Difference between dream senses and physical senses?
[17:56] <eternalstar01> should you try spinning if the dream feels unstable?
[17:56] <xiper> on my first LD I tryed a Dream spin and the dream faded
[17:57] <xiper> : (
[17:57] <%Naiya> Okay xD Spinning is recommended by most people to stabilize or teleport. For me personally it doesn't work and that's why I don't recommend it. It tends to make my dreams less stable and wakes me up.
[17:57] <eternalstar01> i've heard it used as a means to scene change, but i've also read it as a method for stabliity
[17:57] <Hidden> I span in a dream once, but I don't remember what happened. I think I woke up.
[17:57] <%Naiya> yeah For me personally it's never worked.
[17:57] <eternalstar01> yeah, most people say they wake up =/
[17:57] <%Naiya> IT sounds like it hasn't worked for you guys either
[17:58] <%Naiya> yeah I don't think it's a great method.
[17:58] <xiper> nope
[17:58] <beachgirl> its worked for me
[17:58] <%Naiya> On to dream senses vs. real senses
[17:58] <beachgirl> as does rolling down a hill
[17:58] <RequiemForADream> Spinning worked for me.
[17:58] <%Naiya> rolling down a hill, that's new xD yeah you always have to go with what's best for you.
[17:58] <beachgirl> rolling... very gorunded
[17:58] <%Naiya> that's why you may have to try different tactics, ESPECIALLY when it comes to dream control.
[17:58] <beachgirl> grounded
[17:59] <Hidden> Rolling down a hill sounds like fun.
[17:59] <RequiemForADream> Stop, drop, and roll. xD
[17:59] <beachgirl> yes, then your face is close up to grass and flowers, too
[17:59] <%Naiya> So yeah...what I mean by dream senses...just means that your dream self is seeing and hearing dream things, yes? Or touching dream objects.
[17:59] <xiper> *cheer
[17:59] <%Naiya> Those are the things you want to focus on
[17:59] <%Naiya> your physical senses will be....say, feeling like you might need to pee soon, LOL
[17:59] <%Naiya> That's what you want to ignore.
[18:00] <%Naiya> so if you feel yourself waking you want to focus on the DREAM stimuli, and not any physical stimuli
[18:00] <xiper> O.o I grew up learning to pee when you had to Lol
[18:00] <beachgirl> how about pain? do you ever just ignore that... say you've been lying on your side and your arm is a little squashed
[18:00] <%Naiya> as a philosophical question, dream senses can feel as real as physical senses.
[18:00] <%Naiya> it's pretty hard to ignore pain...
[18:01] <Hidden> Usually when I become lucid and the dream destabilizes, I'll start to fall over, so I'll grab onto something, feel its texture, etc... Usually by then I can't see anything at all, and focusing on the fact that I can't see has always woken me up. What should I do then?
[18:01] <%Naiya> Hmm yeah, when it all goes black, that makes it pretty hard.
[18:02] <xiper> QESTION!
[18:02] <%Naiya> you have to understand that sometimes you get lucid right before waking and some of the time...nothing you can do.
[18:02] <%Naiya> Otherwise, you can try saying clarity now! and taking some deep breaths to relax, and telling yourself if you can feel the object the dream will continue.
[18:02] <%Naiya> yeah xiper?
[18:02] <eternalstar01> when a dream starts fading out for me, I usually try to rub my hands together, first thing, and focus on THAT before coming back to the scene
[18:03] <xiper> Like 5 times a year I have a dream where I get in a fight....with someone from school or other wise.... But when I go to fight its like im throwing punches under water... my arms are heavy... any I deas?
[18:03] <eternalstar01> or, pick a small thing in the scene and focus on it, rather than the bigger picture?
[18:03] <Hidden> hmm
[18:03] <%Naiya> oooh that's really getting into dream control hehe. Too bad Walms isn't here cause he's the expert on dream combat
[18:04] <RequiemForADream> My lucids often end with an abrupt transition to darkness.**But if you remain still and don't open your eyes you may be able to re-enter.**Called a DEILD, I believe.**You can try visualizing the dream too.
[18:04] <%Naiya> ES: yeah that's good advice
[18:04] <RequiemForADream> Correct, Naiya?
[18:04] <%Naiya> Yup, right
[18:04] <%Naiya> All is not lost even if you wake up, you can still try to DEILD and get back into the same dream, even.
[18:04] <RequiemForADream> It doesn't always work but worth a try.
[18:04] <Hidden> Shouting clarity now didn't seem to do anything last time I tried it... Haven't done the other two.
[18:05] <xiper> hmm i just dont understand... I didnt know if thats just me or its just something happening in a dream that dont have the control to do yet
[18:05] <Hidden> I love DEILD. =)
[18:05] <%Naiya> Xiper: personally I have issues punching or fistfighting. For example last night I fought a sort of bull monster and I warped my arms into sharp blades and slashed at it. That works a lot better than punching.
[18:05] <eternalstar01> i've DEILDed a couple of times. it's awesome!
[18:05] <beachgirl> how about things inside the dream that make one unstable?
[18:06] <xiper> That.....is....AWSOME
[18:06] <A^dreamer168> You know what I want to try in a dream?
[18:06] <beachgirl> are there certain things to watch out for?
[18:06] <Hidden> Gah... why must dinner be at 6? =/
[18:06] <Hidden> I'll be back in a bit...
[18:06] <%Naiya> hidden: yeah...like I said with dream control, things get more complicated. You will have to experiment with different things and not every dream will be the same as far as ease of control.
[18:06] <beachgirl> it seems like sometimes getting too involved with a DC brings me out...
[18:06] <%Naiya> sure ;o
[18:07] <%Naiya> Anywho That pretty much concludes the offical class meeting
[18:07] <RequiemForADream> BOOM
[18:07] <%Naiya> If anyone wants to go, you're free to go, and anyone who wants to stay to talk is welcome to.

Spoiler for Class Three:

[16:20] == Naiya [[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[16:20] == mode/#DVA [+h Naiya] by DreamBot
[16:20] <%Naiya> woot.
[16:20] <%Snowy^Egypt>
[16:32] == beachgirl [[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[16:32] <%Naiya>
[16:32] <beachgirl> hi
[16:32] <%Naiya> Snowy is going to sit in today
[16:32] <beachgirl> Hi Snowy!
[16:34] <%Snowy^Egypt> Hey!
[16:34] <%Snowy^Egypt> Sorry, mibbit doesn't tell me when people post.
[16:44] == Alex [[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[16:44] == mode/#DVA [+o Alex] by DreamBot
[16:44] <@Alex> right on
[16:45] <%Naiya>
[16:45] == xiper [[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[16:45] <xiper> Hey all
[16:46] <@Alex> xiper mah man
[16:46] <xiper> mah man? lol
[16:46] <%Naiya> hey
[16:46] <%Naiya> welcome welcome
[16:47] <xiper> Hey there...ty
[16:47]*** Snowy^Egypt un-idles herself.
[16:47] <xiper> Had a huge Download that wouldent let me join haha... got it now
[16:49] <%Naiya> aww xD
[16:50] <xiper> yaa.. Last nights dream was a bit strange....but sad it had nothing to do with what I MILDed on
[16:51] <%Naiya> aww yeah xD
[16:51] <%Naiya> well it was interesting at least! XD
[16:51] <xiper> true true.... : )
[16:52] <%Naiya> so hopefully we'll get everyone today, but I didn't realize I'd scheduled a class on the superbowl...
[16:52] == smokyspirit [[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[16:52] <%Naiya> hello
[16:52] <smokyspirit> Hi-hi :-)
[16:52] <xiper> Hey Smoky
[16:53] <smokyspirit> Hey, xiper )
[16:53] <smokyspirit> Trying out an IRC client tonight, instead of the web thingy...
[16:53] <%Naiya> cool
[16:55] == requiemforadream [[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[16:55] <xiper> Hey Requiem : )
[16:55] <smokyspirit> One of the themes in the client is showing little talking heads with bubbles instead of text -- pretty cool )
[16:55] <smokyspirit> Hey, Req
[16:56] <%Naiya> hey
[16:56] <@Alex> SUPERBOWLLLLLLLLLLLLL
[16:56] <requiemforadream> hey
[16:56] <%Naiya> hidden's on her way and we'll wait about five minutes for anyone else.
[16:56] <xiper> kk
[16:56] == Shift [[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[16:56] == mode/#DVA [+h Shift] by DreamBot
[16:57]*** Naiya is about the only american who doesn't care about the damn superbowl.
[16:57] <%Naiya> hi shift
[16:57] <xiper> Hey there Shift : )
[16:57] <%Snowy^Egypt> lol
[16:57] <@Alex> cmon ure in the first row
[16:57] <@Alex> got live TICKETS
[16:57]*** Snowy^Egypt cares about the Puppy Bowl.
[16:57] <%Shift> hey
[16:57] <%Naiya> lol.
[16:58] <%Naiya> I have tickets to a musical this week. Wicked > Superbowl
[16:58] == Hidden [[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[16:58] <@Alex> mhh
[16:58] <@Alex> :sail:
[16:58] <%Naiya> Gay friends ftw.
[16:58] <smokyspirit> Wicked is awesome!
[16:58] <%Naiya> hehehe yes I can't wait.
[16:58] <xiper> Wicked is Wicked**: P
[16:58] <Hidden> ohh, I want to see Wicked.
[16:58] <%Naiya> and hey hidden
[16:58] <Hidden> hi =)
[16:59] <%Naiya> we'll give it a few more minutes before starting.
[16:59] <xiper> hey hey Hidden
[16:59] <beachgirl> hi everyone ~
[16:59] == A^dreamer168 [[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[16:59] <xiper> Hey Beachgirl
[16:59] <%Naiya> hey dreamer
[16:59] <A^dreamer168> yes
[16:59] <Hidden> Today is going to be a very short day.
[16:59] <A^dreamer168> i am here
[16:59] <%Naiya> by the way ES wont' be making it today
[16:59] <Hidden> and hello
[17:00] <A^dreamer168> Hey, what is Snowy doing here?
[17:00] <A^dreamer168> hey you guys
[17:00] <%Naiya> Snowy is going to sit in with us if that's all right.
[17:00] <%Naiya> And so is Shift, I assume? xD
[17:00] <smokyspirit> Hey, Beachgirl )
[17:00] <A^dreamer168> That's fine
[17:00] <xiper> Haha fine with me : )
[17:00] <smokyspirit> Hey, Dreamer
[17:00] <beachgirl> :-)
[17:00] <A^dreamer168> She's a dream guide here
[17:01] <%Naiya> You guys are sort of guinea pigs since you're one of the first classes
[17:01] <%Naiya> So a lot of staff want to see how things are going
[17:01] <xiper> I didnt know we were the first
[17:01] <A^dreamer168> It's OK
[17:01] <%Naiya> Shift taught the very first class--this is the second.
[17:01] <Hidden> We're the second =)
[17:01] <%Shift> Oh, I'm just being shift
[17:01] <xiper> Sweet : )
[17:01] <A^dreamer168> Welll, besides Shift's
[17:01] <%Shift> I'm actually putting off doing my laundry
[17:02] <Hidden> lol, nice.
[17:02] <%Shift> we used to have a website that tells lazy shits like me when the washer is available, and it's down
[17:02] <%Shift> so I'm trying to talk myself into going to look in person
[17:02] <%Naiya> aww xD
[17:02] <xiper> ha : )
[17:02] <%Shift> Mind you, I've put off doing my laundry for a full month, so I'm not sure I can carry the bag down and then back up
[17:02] <xiper> aww : (
[17:03] <%Naiya> *PMs others*
[17:03] <A^dreamer168> So glad to have you here!
[17:03] <%Naiya> mwahaha they can't hide from me, I see them online!
[17:03] <%Shift> lmfao
[17:04] <xiper> PM ftw
[17:04] <%Naiya> hehe
[17:04] <%Naiya> well they may not know the PW was changed.
[17:04] <%Shift> AHA MY DREAM JUST CAME BACK TO ME!
[17:04] <%Snowy^Egypt> lol
[17:04] <Hidden> =)
[17:04] <xiper> lol
[17:04] <%Naiya> lol, nice shift.
[17:05] <%Shift> yes! I love when that happens
[17:05] <%Naiya> So anyway...today we're gonna be doing the science of sleep
[17:06] <A^dreamer168> All right!
[17:06] <%Naiya> Ironically my least favorite subject even though I'm a bio major...
[17:06] <%Naiya> But I went through a lot of research to make sure everything we talk about is accurate.
[17:06] <A^dreamer168> I've had a psych class about this
[17:06] == pllplp [[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[17:06] <%Naiya> In doing so I found out that DV's homepage is a little outdated. So please don't use it as a reference for now.
[17:07] <%Shift> aw man but it's so fun!!
[17:07] <%Naiya> yay! welcome
[17:07] <%Naiya> It reminds me of school too much
[17:07] <%Shift> it reminds me how to get the absolute most out of your sleep, especially for dreaming hehe
[17:08] <%Naiya> True.
[17:08] <Hidden> I hope the psych class at my school covers dreams/lucid dreaming... that would be awesome =)
[17:08] <%Naiya> Most psych classes at least mention LDing in passing.
[17:08] <A^dreamer168> Don't hold your breath
[17:08] <Hidden> hrh
[17:08] <Hidden> *heh
[17:08] <%Naiya> yeah lol, it's usually like one sentence.
[17:08] <A^dreamer168> It's usually just a blurb
[17:08] <%Naiya> OK let's get started.
[17:09] <pllplp> unless its your major or something theyll says some people study dreams
[17:09] <%Naiya> my major is bio, minor in chem, and specialization in forensic science.
[17:09] <Hidden> aren't you really good at physics too?
[17:09] <%Naiya> go ahead and say CSI...everyone does.
[17:10] <Hidden> lol
[17:10] <%Naiya> I'm okay at physics--it's just a required course. I don't like it very much.
[17:10] <%Shift> they usually won't talk much about dreams/lding
[17:10] <pllplp> well not gonna teach u ld in those classes
[17:10] <@Alex> damn trivia bot
[17:10] <%Naiya> hehe.
[17:10] <%Shift> that's why you've gotta supplement with awesome school like the DVA
[17:10] <%Naiya> yes. Anyway xD
[17:10] <Hidden> =)
[17:10] <%Naiya> Sleep is a reversible behavioral state of perceptual disengagement from the environment and unresponsiveness to the environment, with total or partial unconsciousness.
[17:10] <%Naiya> Dreams are A collection of thoughts, emotions, and false sensory stimuli which occur in the mind during sleep. Most normal dreams last 5-20 minutes.
[17:11] <%Naiya> Some basic definitions for you guys.
[17:11] <Hidden> uhh
[17:11] <%Naiya> LOL too sciency, eh?
[17:11] <Hidden> give me a minute to read that a few more times
[17:11] <%Naiya> Basically sleep is reversible, unlike a coma or death.
[17:11] <Hidden> okay, got it
[17:11] <A^dreamer168> I understand it
[17:11] <A^dreamer168> the words are just too big
[17:11] <xiper> *grabs "Science for dumb-asses"
[17:11] <%Naiya> It's a state where you are not aware of the things going on around you--you are at least partially unconscious.
[17:12] <Hidden> you just have to read it a certain way... no skimming. =)
[17:12] <%Naiya> hehe, yeah
[17:13] <%Naiya> Dreams are similar to hallucinations, but hallucinations at least partially depend on things your physical senses are getting, only the hallucination makes up totally new things on top of distorting what real things it is sensing.
[17:14] <%Naiya> There are times where something external enters your dreams, though.
[17:14] <Hidden> But dreams technically aren't considered hallucinations?
[17:14] <%Naiya> Like music playing in the backgroung.
[17:14] == Shift [[email protected]] has left #DVA [""]
[17:15] <%Naiya> Well, dreams aren't considered hallucinations mainly because they are considered their own physiological phenomenon.
[17:15] <Hidden> okay
[17:15] <%Naiya> and we know that dreams pretty much always happen in sleep.
[17:16] <%Naiya> that's one of the things that makes them dreams.
[17:16] <%Naiya> OK so getting right to stages of sleep.
[17:17] <%Naiya> In 2008, the stages of sleep were revised and two stages were combined together.
[17:17] <%Naiya> This is one of the things that's outdated on our homepage.
[17:17] <%Naiya> So now we have four stages of sleep instead of five.
[17:17] <%Naiya> Sleep stages are divided into NREM and REM sleep.
[17:18] <%Naiya> NREM is made up of three stages and generally occurs before REM (not counting WILD, hehe).
[17:18] <%Naiya> REM stands for rapid eye movement.
[17:19] <A^dreamer168> QUESTION!
[17:19] <%Naiya> yup?
[17:19] <A^dreamer168> I know this will be covered in another class...but doesn't WILD have to occur during REM too?
[17:20] <%Naiya> WILD always occurs during REM
[17:20] <Hidden> question also
[17:20] <%Naiya> Sorry if that wasn't clear--what I meant was, when we WILD we basically skip the NREM stages and go right to REM.
[17:20] <%Naiya> yes?
[17:20] <Hidden> <%Naiya> and we know that dreams pretty much always happen in sleep.
[17:20] <Hidden> Pretty much?
[17:20] <Hidden> Do we sometimes dream while awake?
[17:20] <beachgirl> i had that same ?
[17:22] <%Naiya> that's the problem, yeah xD
[17:22] == kidjordan [[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[17:22] <Hidden> ?
[17:22] <xiper> ?
[17:22] <kidjordan> WAZZA
[17:22] <Hidden> hello
[17:22] <%Naiya> dream in the physiological sense is strictly limited to sleep, but the word is often used for things that happen outside sleep, ie daydreams.
[17:22] <A^dreamer168> WAZZZ with you?
[17:23] <kidjordan> I finally figured out how to get into this chat room
[17:23] <A^dreamer168> ?*Wazza
[17:23] <kidjordan>
[17:23] <%Naiya> hehe good.
[17:23] <kidjordan> alright sorry for interrupting
[17:23] <kidjordan> go on
[17:23] <%Naiya> So basically the word dream is somewhat subjective
[17:24] <%Naiya> So getting back to the stages of sleep...
[17:24] <A^dreamer168> It's an equivocal word
[17:24] <A^dreamer168> Sorry
[17:25] <%Naiya> N! is the first stage of sleep and it's very short--this is when you're in that twilight zone of falling asleep. It's a very light sleep.
[17:25] <%Naiya> N1 *
[17:25] <%Naiya> When someone is woken from N1, they often believe they weren't asleep at all and they are fairly alert.
[17:26] <%Naiya> N1 is usually where you will get hypnic jerks (where your body parts jerk suddently), and your brainwaves usually are at Alpha, which are brainwaves we see in when someone is awake.
[17:26] <%Naiya> 2-5% of sleep is made up of N1
[17:27] <A^dreamer168> Alpha=awake and relaxed, right, Naiya?
[17:27] <%Naiya> yup.
[17:28] <Hidden> question
[17:28] <%Naiya> yup?
[17:28] <Hidden> When you're awake and thinking hard about something, do your brainwaves ever go to something other than Alpha?
[17:29] <%Naiya> Hmm, possibly. You might have Beta, which is anxious thinking
[17:29] <%Naiya> Beta is also concentrating or focusing
[17:29] <Hidden> hmm... Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta, etc is from long to short waves?
[17:31] <%Naiya> *remembers from chem*
[17:31] <%Naiya> no wait...that is confusing me haha. different thing.
[17:31] <%Naiya> sleep waves =/= light waves
[17:32] <Hidden> oh good, that was going to be my next question. =P
[17:32] <%Naiya> Delta is considered slow wave sleep so yeah generally fast to slow--short to long waves.
[17:32] <Hidden> wait... so when you focus, your brain waves get longer?
[17:32] <xiper> I know what you all are talking about....and yet... I have no friken clue lol
[17:33] <%Naiya> they would get shorter
[17:33] <%Naiya> When you guys get to the Science of Sleep class you'll get more deep into that stuff xD
[17:33] <xiper> kk : P
[17:33] <kidjordan> So Alpha is shortest and most awake
[17:33] <Hidden> But you just said they were Beta and that Beta is longer than Alpha...
[17:33] <kidjordan> and Delta is longer and most asleep?
[17:34] <%Naiya> kidjordan: yeah I believe so.
[17:34] <A^dreamer168> NoBeta is shortest and most awake
[17:34] <A^dreamer168> *Beta
[17:34] <%Naiya> That would make more sense.
[17:35] <Hidden> ...?
[17:35] <%Naiya> Alpha is shorter
[17:35] <requiemforadream> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro...#Wave_patterns
[17:35] <%Naiya> 8-12 hz
[17:35] <%Naiya> ooh useful
[17:36] <xiper> maybe we should just move on and leave this for la.... Or that requiem lol
[17:36] <%Naiya> yeah...this is more...science of sleep
[17:36] <beachgirl> delta (slowest, longest, sleepiest), theta, alpha, beta, gamma (fastest, shortest, most focus)
[17:36] <%Naiya> Cool. There we go. xD
[17:36] <xiper> haha kk
[17:36] <%Naiya> It's a different order than light waves so was making me confused lol
[17:37] <kidjordan> moving on
[17:37] <%Naiya> The second sleep stage, N2 makes up about 45-55% of sleep.
[17:38] <%Naiya> The last NREM stage is N3, which was formerly split into N3 and N4.
[17:38] <%Naiya> These two stages were usually known as SWS or slow wave sleep because of the Delta brainwaves present.
[17:39] <%Naiya> N3 is the deepest sleep we get and when someone is woken from N3, they are usually extremely drowsy, disoriented and don't do very well with mental tasks.
[17:39] <Hidden> Okay, got it. They couldn't just go in the order of the alphabet, could they? =P
[17:39] <%Naiya> nope, they had to do things in a weird order...because that is how science works...don't we all love science.
[17:40] <%Naiya> SWS dominates the first third of the night, but only makes up 13-23% of our total sleep.
[17:40] <%Naiya> The last stage is REM--which I'll get to in a sec.
[17:40] <%Naiya> But the entire sleep cycle takes about 90 minutes.
[17:41] <%Naiya> In the first third of the night, like I said, SWS dominates. But as the night goes on, REM periods get longer and longer.
[17:41] <%Naiya> So this is exactly the reason it's a good idea to WBTB when you WILD.
[17:41] <pllplp> still remaining in 90 min intervals?
[17:42] <%Naiya> That would depend on how long you sleep.
[17:42] <%Naiya> Because personally, my total sleep cycles get shorter too, if I sleep long enough.
[17:42] <%Naiya> But most of these studies have people only sleep something like 7-8 hours, and I sleep a lot longer. hehe.
[17:43] <beachgirl> question
[17:43] <%Naiya> 90 minutes is basically the average.
[17:43] <%Naiya> yeah?
[17:43] <beachgirl> can a WBTB be as simple as getting up briefly say to go to the br... or do you recommend longer intervals?
[17:44] <%Naiya> That depends on the person.
[17:44] <%Naiya> If you drop off to sleep after five seconds, try a longer WBTB. If you fall asleep slowly, 30 seconds is a long enough WBTB
[17:44] <beachgirl> thx
[17:44] <%Naiya> personally my WBTBs are just...going to the bathroom, sip of water and back to bed. so like 2 minutes.
[17:45] <%Naiya> So to sum it up: NREM sleep is generally deeper sleep. You do dream in NREM but it is rare and the dreams don't tend to be very vivid.
[17:45] <kidjordan> QUESTION
[17:45] <%Naiya> yeah?
[17:46] <kidjordan> WILD and WBTB are essentially the same right?
[17:46] <%Naiya> Mmm, not really.
[17:46] <%Naiya> I MILD with most of my WBTBs.
[17:46] <%Naiya> We'll talk about the differences between all those things next time, so don't worry.
[17:46] <kidjordan> OK
[17:47] <%Naiya> Your muscles are not paralyzed in NREM sleep and NREM takes up a total of 75-80% of your sleep.
[17:47] <%Naiya> Finally getting to REM sleep. xD
[17:47] <%Naiya> There are no brainwave patterns which dominate REM sleep. REM is characterized by atonia--loss of muscle tone, in other words paralysis, not to be confused with an episode of sleep paralysis.
[17:47] <%Naiya> REM consists of 20-25% of sleep, usually 4-6 episodes, short at the beginning of the night, get longer as the night goes on.
[17:48] <%Naiya> Our sleep cycle usually happens in the order of N1, N2, N3, N2, and REM.
[17:48] <%Naiya> So REM is what you want for dreaming and especially lucid dreaming.
[17:49] <%Naiya> Running low on time so let's get right to HH and SP. xD
[17:49] <%Naiya> Hypnogagic hallucinations occur as we fall asleep.
[17:49] <%Naiya> Hypnopompic hallucinations occur as we're waking up.
[17:49] <%Naiya> HH can be any false sensation--most commonly sights and sounds, but also touches, tastes, and smells.
[17:50] <%Naiya> HH can range from the sutble to the very startling.
[17:51] <%Naiya> Sleep paralysis is an episode in which a person is usually transitioning from wake to sleep or sleep to wake and they find that they cannot move. SP is commonly characterized by hallucinations, vibrations, loud ringing or roaring noises in the ears, pressure on the chest or choking sensations, and often fear if impending doom or terror if the person is has no prior knowledge or experience of SP.
[17:51] <%Naiya> Physiologically speaking SP is caused by atonia of the voluntary muscles due to the REM cycle. It is still unknown exactly how the body triggers this and has been the subject of much study. So basically, an episode of SP occurs because you are either entering or exiting REM sleep and you have become conscious during this transition.
[17:51] <A^dreamer168> QUESTION!
[17:51] <pllplp> so those symptoms that accompany sp are hh?
[17:51] <%Naiya> HH and SP often go together, yes.
[17:52] <%Naiya> dreamer: yeah?
[17:52] <requiemforadream> QUESTION
[17:52] == Alex [[email protected]] has left #DVA [""]
[17:52] <A^dreamer168> Is SP often associated with pins ad needles feelings?
[17:52] <%Naiya> Yes it is.
[17:53] <requiemforadream> What is the difference between HH and HI?
[17:53] <A^dreamer168> Hmm That's weird
[17:53] <%Naiya> yeah, SP can even feel painful sometimes.
[17:53] <%Naiya> HH is hypnogagic hallucination.
[17:53] <%Naiya> HI is hypnogagic imagery
[17:54] <%Naiya> So the reason I say HH is that it includes all sorts of senses instead of just visual
[17:54] <requiemforadream> ok
[17:54] <A^dreamer168> The reason I ask is because I've tried to WILD during the night and often had these sensations
[17:54] <%Naiya> but yeah good question. A lot of times people just say HI when they mean general hallucinations.
[17:55] <%Naiya> If you get pins and needles, that's good
[17:55] <%Naiya> Unless it's your leg falling asleep or something, lol
[17:55] <A^dreamer168> zi hate that
[17:55] <%Naiya> But yeah, if you very gently try to move without jerking your body, and you find you can't move when you feel pins and needles than you know it's SP.
[17:56] <A^dreamer168> It hurts to moove my leg when that happens
[17:56] <%Naiya> lol xD
[17:56] <xiper> I cant even make it to that in my WILDs lol
[17:57] <%Naiya> it hurts to move your leg? do the pins and needles hurt?
[17:57] <%Naiya> Hmm if that's the case, when you feel the pins and needles, IMO, you can try visualizing the dream you want
[17:57] <%Naiya> or visualize yourself standing across the room.
[17:58] <%Naiya> A lot of times if SP or HH are uncomfortable, once you kickstart the dream they just disappear.
[17:58] <A^dreamer168> No, I just mean regular leg falling asleep
[17:58] <%Naiya> OH. LOL
[17:58] <%Naiya> Well....you may have to just try sleeping in another position XD
[17:59] <kidjordan> QUESTION
[17:59] <%Naiya> yup?
[17:59] <kidjordan> sometimes I feel numbness but I can move if I really want to is this SP?
[18:00] <%Naiya> No.
[18:00] <kidjordan> I haven't really distinguished if I can move slightly normally I just jerk my arm
[18:00] <%Naiya> SP is always when you are unable to move.
[18:00] <%Naiya> If you can move, then you know it's not SP.
[18:01] <xiper> QUESTION
[18:01] <%Naiya> yeah?
[18:01] <xiper> Just because we are on WILDs... How long does it take "you" to feel SP (sy if off topic)
[18:02] <%Naiya> No problem. Just FYI--the lecture is all done for today so questions are welcome now, on or off topic.
[18:02] <%Naiya> When I WILD, it's different every single time.
[18:02] <%Naiya> Sometimes I'll be laying there for like 20-30 minutes
[18:02] <Hidden> oh, cool. That one seemed shorter than usual. I guess it was an hour, though, like the others...
[18:02] <%Naiya> Sometimes I get hit by SP within a few minutes.
[18:03] <requiemforadream> I'd like to stick around and chew the fat but I've to go.
[18:03] <%Naiya> So it varies from person to person and also from day to day.
[18:03] == requiemforadream [[email protected]] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
[18:03] <beachgirl> do you think SP might also vary depending on where you are in your sleep cycle?
[18:03] <xiper> hmmm.. ok.. I dont know if I give it to little time or what... I always fall asleep lols
[18:04] <%Naiya> yeah lol. That is the hardest part.
[18:04] <%Naiya> with WILD, you are really getting to know your own bodie and finding your own personal cues
[18:04] == Snowy^Egypt [[email protected]] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client]
[18:04] <%Naiya> you are trying to navigate your consciousness through that window in between waking and sleeping.
[18:04] <beachgirl> Question:
[18:05] <%Naiya> So WILD might seem quick and easy at first but it does take practice.
[18:05] <%Naiya> yeah?
[18:05] <beachgirl> is your sleep cycle pretty consistent or does it change over time?
[18:05] <xiper> Ok... Well I need to get going... Thanks for the class, cya everyone! : )
[18:05] <Hidden> bye
[18:05] <beachgirl> ~~
[18:05] <%Naiya> sure thanks
[18:05] <smokyspirit> cu, xiper
[18:05] <xiper> bye bye
[18:05] == xiper [[email protected]] has left #DVA [""]
[18:05] <%Naiya> My sleep cycle? It's been almost the same my whole life.
[18:05] <%Naiya> Or are you asking in general?
[18:06] <%Naiya> Because as the years go by, there are subtle changes to how long people stay in each stage of sleep.
[18:06] <beachgirl> so you know it it's 6 am just when you are going to REM and at what time?
[18:06] == A^dreamer168 [[email protected]] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
[18:06] <%Naiya> Mainly REM is longer when we are children and tends to get a teeny bit shorter on average as we age.
[18:06] <beachgirl> well i would like to predict my own sleep cycle so i could time REM
[18:07] <beachgirl> it would help if the cycle is consistent
[18:07] <%Naiya> well, sorta. I always go to bed at different times...but when I wake up I can almost always guess what time it is xD
[18:07] <%Naiya> because I usually sleep for 4 solid hours, then wake up, and then wake about every hour after that.
[18:07] <Hidden> With a dream each time you wake up?
[18:08] <%Naiya> But yeah if you pay attention to your own sleep cycle you can get pretty accurate when it comes to when you have your REM periods.
[18:08] <%Naiya> Yup, with a dream each time.
[18:08] <Hidden> wow, that's a lot of dreams.
[18:08] <beachgirl> sure is an advertisment for MILD!
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[18:08] == mode/#DVA [+h Snowy^Egypt] by DreamBot
[18:09] <Hidden> lol beach
[18:09] <%Naiya> hehe yeah
[18:10] <%Naiya> IF I'm not lazy I can have 3-5 lucids in a night.
[18:10] <%Naiya> I'm just...very lazy haha.
[18:10] <Hidden> lol Naiya. I'm jealous. =)
[18:11] <%Naiya> Last year I was trying to catch up to Walms so I was clocking like at least 3 a night
[18:11] <Hidden> wow
[18:11] <%Naiya> but then school started...
[18:11] <%Naiya> so I sorta let go.
[18:11] <Hidden> Doesn't Walms have like 200++?
[18:11] <Hidden> *2000+
[18:11] <Hidden> And he stopped counting?
[18:11] <%Naiya> yeah he has an absurd amount haha.
[18:11] <%Naiya> he has like 5+ a night
[18:11] <Hidden> o.o
[18:12] <beachgirl> well i find this pretty motivating
[18:12] <Hidden> ditto
[18:12] <pllplp> you get the same sp and hh every time?
[18:12] <Hidden> It makes me want to WBTB tonight/attempt WILD...
[18:13] <Hidden> But I'd have to go to bed early and I just woke up 4 hours ago. =P
[18:13] <beachgirl> i often WBTB and don't WILD (lazy) but no reason not to MILD
[18:14] <%Naiya> I get HH every time I WILD. I don't get SP every time.
[18:14] <pllplp> cause i used to get heavy "vibes" and now none or almost none
[18:14] <beachgirl> i love HH!
[18:14] <beachgirl> although they can be very tricky...
[18:14]*** Snowy^Egypt un-idles
[18:14] <Hidden> HH is fun. I wish I got them more.
[18:15] <%Naiya>

Spoiler for Class Four:

pllplp ([email protected]) has joined #DVA

<Naiya>


<pllplp>
so im thinking after class i don't need my dj to be up anymore

<Naiya>
Oh yeah. I need to post about those.

<Naiya>
IF you want me to delete the classroom DJ I'll do that.

<Naiya>
Like, after the class is over.

<pllplp>
well i read that i needed u to delete it when class complete

<Naiya>
Yeah. So I'll make a thread about it or put it in one of the class threads

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<Naiya>
And you guys let me know if you want your threads deleted.

<Naiya>
Hi hidden

<Hidden>
hey =)

<Naiya>
Most likely they WILL all be deleted someday to save space and for privacy.

<pllplp>
im probably not gonna keep it up and dont really need others to see it when the course is over

<Naiya>
But anyone who wants their gone before the next class will just have to post in the class thread and let me know

<Naiya>
yeah that's fine

<Hidden>
There will be other courses later that require DJs, right?

<pllplp>
i dont care short term but dont need it long term, hmmm if thats right i can create another one if i join those classes

<Naiya>
Hidden: yeah there will

<Naiya>
and yeah you can just create a new one for those

<Hidden>
okay

<Hidden>
ehh, I don't really care what you do with my DJ.

<Hidden>
I have it all in three other journals too. o.o

<pllplp>
like i said just dont care to have it public after the course. i perfer my notbook even if i dont generally go back and look at it

<Naiya>
yeah

<Naiya>
I'll make a thread about it tonight and you can all let me know what you want to do with the DJ threads.

<pllplp>
or if im gonna type it up i had a txt file but to much trouble to go into a different room and type later

<Naiya>
yeah

<pllplp>
but i am ok with it being a requisit for the class, it dose not usually happen but since the class and the online journal i have noticed i had more then one dreams about water, and numbers, so i am gonna try to use those as dream signs for a while

<Hidden>
I used to have a lot of dreams about water.

<Naiya>
yeah

<pllplp>
one about a pond and one trying to find a place to ice skate

<pllplp>
and last night all i remeber about the dream is i was trying to add some numbers or something

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<Naiya>


<beachgirl>
:-) hi everyone!

<Hidden>
hey!

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<smokyspirit>
Hey, All.

<Hidden>
hi

<Naiya>
hey

<RequiemForADream>
yo

<Naiya>
guess we'll give it a few more minutes

<smokyspirit>
Just realized I haven't posted my DJ today Not too much to report, but still... *fires up his MacJournal*

<Naiya>
the password was changed again so people might be confused lol

<Hidden>
Why is the pw changing so much?

<RequiemForADream>
Naiya, do you have a DJ on DV? I didn't get an answer before.

<Naiya>
I only have a dream gallery on DV.

<Naiya>
My full DJ is only on MM.

<pllplp>
mm?

<Naiya>
So when I do a task or have a really cool lucid I'll post it on DV, otherwise it's on MM

<Naiya>
MM=Mortal Mist, another LD forum.

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<smokyspirit>
*And... he is back*

<A^dreamer168>
Sorry I am late

<Naiya>
no prob

<A^dreamer168>
Hello?

<Hidden>
hello

<A^dreamer168>
Congrats again Naiya

<Naiya>
Thanks very much

<RequiemForADream>
Yeah, congrats. Are we ready to light this candle?

<A^dreamer168>
I am doing a dream yoga exercise now

<Naiya>
Yep I think we should start now

<Naiya>
and ooh that is very cool dreamer xD

<Naiya>
okay xD

<Naiya>
Today we're just going to talk about DILD and its various forms.

<A^dreamer168>
the one where you reflect on the day backwards

<A^dreamer168>
sorry

<Naiya>
hehe XD no prob.

<Naiya>
We'll have to have a dream yoga group or something at some point

<Naiya>
The basic difference between DILD and WILD is whether or not there is a break in consciousness before the dream begins.

<A^dreamer168>
I SO want to do that

<Naiya>
me too

<beachgirl>
count me in for that, too

<smokyspirit>
+1

<Naiya>
With DILD you have that period of NREM before getting your dream where you are unconscious for a while, in deep sleep.

<RequiemForADream>
I'm in...

<Naiya>
Witb WILD you go straight to REM with no break in consciousness.

<Naiya>
I think I probably already mentioned that in a previous class but that's the basic difference

<Naiya>
With DILD you have the traditional DILD: RCing, Djing, and Dream signs

<Naiya>
Did we already go over what makes a good reality check?

<Naiya>
Or was that after class?

<Naiya>
I guess it won't hurt to repeat it. xD

<beachgirl>
you can tell us (if its again thats ok)

<Naiya>
The problem with RCs is that a lot of times, people just mindlessly go “am I dreaming?” and without even considering it, they think “no,” and then totally forget about it. This does absolutely nothing to help you get lucid.

<Naiya>
When you do a reality check, don't ask if you're dreaming. Assume that you ARE dreaming. Now ask, “why do I think this is real?”

<Naiya>
Example of a GOOD answer: “I think this is real because I remember waking up, getting dressed and driving here. I can remember in detail what I had for breakfast. When I toss a pen into the air and try to make it float, I can't do it.” This works because you are testing you surroundings and memories against LOGIC. Not only that, but you're physically testing reality. If you want, you can try...

<Naiya>
...the classics such as looking at your hands or holding your nose to test reality.

<A^dreamer168>
QUESTION!

<Naiya>
Yeah?

<A^dreamer168>
Why does that method work better?

<Naiya>
It works better because by reversing your assumptions about reality, you are forcing yourself to really think about it.

<Naiya>
If you just start off assuming that you're NOT dreaming, you're likely to fail your reality check because you aren't forcing yourself to think critically about your surroundings.

<A^dreamer168>
A lot of us have been "indoctrinated" to believe the former works better

<Naiya>
I would say, try it yourself and see which one you feel makes you think about it more.

<pllplp>
like i said before i never like to say no im not dreaming, more like i dont thing i am makes me think about doing another rc soon

<Naiya>
The main thing with an RC is to get you to think about where you are and be aware of the present.

<A^dreamer168>
I believe the latter

<Naiya>
The reason I tell people to do it this way is to hopefully prevent them from doing a bad RC.

<Naiya>
Example of a BAD answer: “This feels real.” While you'll never confuse your waking life with a dream, ALL of your non-lucids will always “feel real.”

<Naiya>
So what it comes down to is whether or not you're REALLY questioning reality, or if you're just repeating a question mindlessly.

<Naiya>
You can do an RC any way you think is best for you, but the key point is getting that logical part of your brain working and answering questions.

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<Naiya>
Welcome

<Naiya>
Dreamer: sound good?

<xiper>
Lol I 100% forgot it was tonight

<Naiya>
hehe, no prob. You can read the log later of what you missed.

<xiper>
kk go on

<Naiya>
The RC that worked best for me was the "Where was I last? What was I doing?" You may be surprised that you'll answer "I went to bed!" and of course conclude that you must be asleep. So these things help with DILDs.

<Naiya>
RCing goes hand in hand with dreamsigns

<Naiya>
Probably everyone's pretty familiar with the idea that if we teach ourselves to associate a dreamsign with the act of dreaming, we can learn to RC when we see it in a dream.

<Naiya>
It can also prevent you from wasting your time on certain RCs.

<Naiya>
or example, when I was a kid my mom taught me the "look at your hands" RC. It never worked because, while I see my hands all the time in my waking life, I never saw them in my dreams.

<Naiya>
For* :p

<Naiya>
IT pretty much goes without saying that you NEED to keep a dream journal to keep good track of dreamsigns.

<Naiya>
Sometimes you will have a DS that lasts for years, but a lot of times you'll find that a DS may stop appearing, or a new one will be more common, or what have you.

<beachgirl>
Question

<Naiya>
yup? :0

<beachgirl>
Do we know why dreamsigns occur in the first place?

<Naiya>
Not really

<smokyspirit>
QUESTION! too

<RequiemForADream>
Blasphemy, looking at your hands is great. xD

<Naiya>
The nature of dream content is still kind of a mystery. There are several theories about it but so far none of them are really proven.

<Naiya>
hehehe.

<Naiya>
smokey: go ahead

<smokyspirit>
What are some of the ways to teach yourself to associate a dream sign with the act of dreaming?

<beachgirl>
thanks, i am always wondering why they occur as they do... and why they shift, too

<Naiya>
There are a few ways to do it. If your DS is something you see IRL, then of course you RC IRL.

<Naiya>
Whenever you see the DS*

<Naiya>
If your DS is rare IRL or is only in your dreams, you can visualize yourself seeing the DS and becoming lucid from it either throughout the day or before bed.

<Naiya>
So basically, if your DS is say...trains.

<Naiya>
Every time you see the word train, or hear one, see one on TV, or think of one, try to get yourself in the habit of RCing.

<Naiya>
So that way, even if you don't see them IRL often, hopefully your mind will start to make the connection train-->RC!

<smokyspirit>
OK, cool, thanks Basically, awareness and repetition...

<Naiya>
yup pretty much!

<Naiya>
IMHO, DILD is almost always about being consistent with a technique

<pllplp>
more then just repition

<pllplp>
cant just gloss over it. cause ive had rc fail when done after seeing a dream sign

<Naiya>
Yeah

<Naiya>
That's why it's so important to really make yourself think about it when you RC.

<Naiya>
It should be something that takes you at least 15 seconds.

<Naiya>
Give yourself the time to really stop and look around how, ask how you got there, ect ect

<Naiya>
Should we move on to MILD?

<Naiya>
Already halfway through class. xD wow.

<xiper>
cheer MILD

<Hidden>
I'm ready to move on. =)

<Naiya>
Woot

<xiper>
same

<pllplp>
well how often should you rc

<pllplp>
max-min

<Naiya>
How often you RC, is a tough one.

<Naiya>
It's more about quality than quantity, IMO.

<Naiya>
I would say do as many as you realistically can. But be sure that you keep doing that many RCs or more every day.

<Naiya>
Because if you do 100 RCs today and 2 tomorrow, it's not going to do much.

<pllplp>
ive never had a good dream sign (meaning consistant) , how often do you change what you looking for how many do you look for at one time?

<Naiya>
Personally, I don't RC more than a handful of times a day

<Naiya>
Because I mainly use MILD. hehe.

<xiper>
Cheer

<beachgirl>
i found that focusing on a few dreamsigns made it easier for me to remember to do them

<Naiya>
If you do ten every day at certain signals or dreamsigns (say every time you check the time or walk through a door which are both great ones btw), and you STICK with it, that might be enough. But everyone is different so I can't really pin down a number for you.

<Naiya>
That's also why I encourage people to not rely on the RC/DS method alone.

<Naiya>
You can get lucid on it alone, but it doesn't hurt to add something like MILD

<Naiya>
Or awareness which we'll get to.

<Naiya>
The nice thing about DILD is, many of the methods compliment each other.

<Naiya>
So if you are consistent with a few of them you really boost your chances of getting lucid.

<Naiya>
Anyway on to MILD: Mnemonically Induced Lucid Dream

<Naiya>
Originally coined by Stephen LaBerg who taught himself to LD at will.

<Naiya>
using this method*

<Naiya>
MILD is similar to DILD in that they both rely on the same basic method to get lucid--that is, for you to RC or otherwise remember to become lucid in your dream.

<Naiya>
There are really two basic forms of MILD. One is autosuggestion, where you pick a mantra (like the classic "I will have a lucid dream tonight") and repeat it before bed, as you fall asleep.

<Naiya>
The second method uses visualization. You can choose a certain dreamscene and imagine yourself lucid in it.

<Naiya>
You can use the last dream you had, a previous lucid dream you had, or a whole new imagined dream.

<Naiya>
As you fall asleep, just visualize yourself lucid or getting lucid in the scenario.

<Naiya>
MILD can also be used with WBTB-wake back to bed. If you wake up during the night naturally you can MILD again as you fall back asleep. Or if you sleep through the night you may set an alarm and MILD after it wakes you.

<Naiya>
That's pretty much it for the basic MILD.

<Naiya>
Any questions before we move on?

<beachgirl>
question

<xiper>
Queston

<xiper>
ill wait : P

<beachgirl>
what is the difference between MILD and VILD?

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<Naiya>
hehe, VILD is like a cross between MILD and WILD.

<eternalstar01>
bahhhhh, hello

<Hidden>
hello

* eternalstar01
sneaks in, very lately!

<Naiya>
The method is exactly the same--only you don't fall asleep, you go right into the dream. Which makes it a WILD instead of a DILD.

<Naiya>
hehe no prob

<Hidden>
tut tut

<Naiya>
well okay maybe not exactly....but REALLY close

<beachgirl>
so the MILD mnemonic can be a picture, that's what you are saying when you DILD/MILD?

<Naiya>
yup

<beachgirl>
thx!

<xiper>
So do you think of your self becomeing lucid?... like what you will feel like... or just that you will become lucid?

<Naiya>
just that you'll be lucid.

<xiper>
k : )

<Naiya>
For example you imagine that you have a false awakening and that you RC and become lucid.

<Naiya>
Or imagine that you see a DS and become lucid from it.

<xiper>
hmmm ok

<Naiya>
OR just imagine that you'll be lucid from the get-go All up to you.

<xiper>
so my field idea is not a good one?

<Naiya>
That kind of stuff is all for the individual dreamer to experiment with and see what works best for you.

<Naiya>
The field idea is a good one. keep it.

<Hidden>
question

<Naiya>
yup?

<Hidden>
For the mantra, I've heard that you shouldn't use the term "lucid dream" because your subconscious doesn't recognize it. After you've been LDing for a long enough, does it ever become meaningful?

<Hidden>
*for long enough

<Naiya>
Hmm. I've never heard that

<Hidden>
really?

<Naiya>
Considering that was the very thing I used when I started and it DID work for me...I'd have to say it's not true, haha.

<beachgirl>
question?

<Hidden>
Okay then.

<Naiya>
The two things I started out with as a kid: "I will have a lucid dream tonight" and the look-at-your-hands RC. haha.

<Naiya>
yup?

<Hidden>
I wonder why I've heard it from so many different people...

<Naiya>
Well, mantras are a little tricky.

<beachgirl>
do you vary your mantra or visual key or keep doing the same thing - is one way better than the other?

<Naiya>
It's best to stick with one mantra or visualization.

<Naiya>
especially when you're a beginner.

<eternalstar01>
i don't really see why the sub-conscious *wouldn't* recognise the term lucid dreaming. to me, that's like saying your subconscious wouldn't know what a puppy is...

<xiper>
I have a queston but I dont know if I should save it for WILD or not lol

<beachgirl>
that's the difference then - with DILD you might use your last dream, but with MILD you are more consistent, way more

<Naiya>
yeah

<Naiya>
Xiper: if it's about WILD, just ask after class. xD

<Naiya>
In fact I better go over the other methods cause we're running out of time lol.

<Hidden>
It's because most people aren't as familiar with "lucid dream" as they are with the words in "realize that you're dreaming"

<xiper>
haha ok..its MILD / WILD thats why I thought of it

<Naiya>
yeah

<Naiya>
We'll get back to questions in a bit xD;

<eternalstar01>
sorry if this was asked - for a visualization, do you just keep one non-motion scene in your mind and think to yourself that you'll be lucid. or do you explore around the scene like a daydream and just "know" that in this scene, it's a "dream" that you're lucid in?

<Naiya>
make the scene are real as you can!

<Naiya>
Think of it like a daydream

<Naiya>
go nuts.

<Naiya>
Just make sure it's a "lucid" daydream.

<eternalstar01>
right

<Naiya>
OK, getting to the awareness method

<Naiya>
This is what the Yogis mainly use.

<Naiya>
Basically it's making the day one never-ending reality checkl

<Naiya>
The key to constant awareness comes from the fundamental idea that all reality is another facet of a dream. Time is illusionary. Today will soon fade and cease to exist. Everything you know in this world can be changed in an instant, at any time, for any reason. This is just the same way your dreams are. This is what Dream Yoga teaches. All things are illusionary, all things change, and all...

<Naiya>
...things fade. This is the reality of existence.

<A^dreamer168>
I'm trying to do this

<Naiya>
This is where that meditation stuff really helps, by the way-- meditation teaches the kind of awareness I'm talking about.

<Naiya>
I believe that many natural LDers do this unconsciously. They just "know" when they are dreaming because they know it feels different. This also may explain why naturals have a hard time explaining exactly how they get lucid. They don't really GET lucid...they ARE lucid every moment of the day and night.

<Naiya>
The best way to learn about awareness is to pick up a book on meditation, Buddhism, or Taoism. Meditation is a tool that can teach you what true mindfulness feels like. The real trick to getting lucid is to keep that feeling of awareness going on all the time, even if it's not always completely conscious.

<A^dreamer168>
I have a singing bowl for this

<RequiemForADream>
Book recommendations?

<Naiya>
oooh I love singing bowls! I only have them on CD though.

<Hidden>
What are singing bowls?

<Naiya>
Oh right...I was gonna post those lol <_<

<A^dreamer168>
IIt's foe the third eye...supposedly

<Naiya>
I'll post some in the classroom tonight xD;

<A^dreamer168>
Linky time

<RequiemForADream>
More specifically, books on awareness and meditation.

<Naiya>
yeah

<Naiya>
OK, one last method xD

<Naiya>
EILD. EILD can stand for both externally induced lucid dream or electrically induced lucid dream

<A^dreamer168>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvVS-VUt0vQ

<Naiya>
So basically it relies on an outside signal to tell you that you're dreaming.

<eternalstar01>
this has been the hardest part for me, is the awareness. Because I am constantly daydreaming and I get so locked into them that it's almost like sleeping. Just enough awareness to keep myself alive as I get from point A to point B. No actual awareness on how things feel around me. Like my body, sounds on the road, other people. that all gets locked out.

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<Hidden>
I'll watch that in a bit.

<A^dreamer168>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ek_7N...eature=related

<Naiya>
ES: ahh yeah It takes a looong time to build up, I think.

<A^dreamer168>
Better one

<Naiya>
welcome

<kidjordan>
sorry

<A^dreamer168>
Not really

<Naiya>
no prob, logs will be up later for you.

|<--
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<Hidden>
es: I do the same thing...

<Naiya>
Well...it did for me, anyway

<Naiya>
Maybe I fail that way, haha.

<Naiya>
OK so getting back to EILD xD

<A^dreamer168>
Depends how wide the bowl

<A^dreamer168>
*is

<eternalstar01>
i think you're right. it's a HARD habit to break (keep going with EILD, just wanted to say that)

<kidjordan>
what is EILD?

<Hidden>
We're getting there.

<kidjordan>
ok good

<eternalstar01>
Naiya: EILD. EILD can stand for both externally induced lucid dream or electrically induced lucid dream

<kidjordan>
o right

<Naiya>
With EILD you really have to have a good idea of your own sleep patterns and be able to predict when REM will hit. So before bed you set up some device that will give you a signal, and you will hopefully get lucid from the signal

<kidjordan>
i remember now

<Naiya>
Normally it's something unobtrusive enough so that it doesn't wake you

<kidjordan>
like the nova dreamer

<Naiya>
The most famous device is--yes the nova dreamer, xD

<RequiemForADream>
Grab your wallets.

<kidjordan>
haha

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<Naiya>
Anyone who isn't familiar--it goes over the eyes and give a little flashing light to signal that you're dreaming. Only problem is, this type of thing is expensive

<eternalstar01>
bah! who needs an expensive light flashy machine when we can do it ourselves, right?!

<pllplp>
those that cant do it themselves so easily

<Hidden>
Could you just flash lights yourself? All night?

<Naiya>
You can also use a vibrating watch, or set up a white noise recording or something that has a signal or quiet voice that will tell you to get lucid.

<Naiya>
You can try hehe.

<pllplp>
those that are desperate enough to try whatever they can

<beachgirl>
hey, whatever works...

<Naiya>
So that is EILD in a nutshell.

<Naiya>
So wrapping up DILD--the pros and cons of DILD.

<xiper>
*Ties christamas lights around head*

<pllplp>
i would grab my wallet and fork it over if my wallet wasnt empty

<Naiya>
the pros are mainly that you don't have to do a WBTB or lose any sleep to do it

<Naiya>
Also you can improve your chances of getting lucid all day by RCing and such, so unlike WILD it's not a one shot deal every time.

<RequiemForADream>
You can cheaply make one.

<eternalstar01>
i might be stepping on Naiya's toes here... but it's only half the battle. The light can manifest itself into your dream - you can come up with an explanation to why you see a flashing light in your dream and not recognise it as the "dream sign."

<Naiya>
and finally, even when you master both DILD and WILD, DILD tends to be more consistent with getting your more lucids.

<Naiya>
ES: yeah exactly

<Naiya>
It's not always a guaranteed lucid

<kidjordan>
I did not know that

<kidjordan>
I always thought it was the other way around

<kidjordan>
WILDs were more consistent than DILDs

<Naiya>
With WILD, it's just different every time.

<kidjordan>
then again I don't know much

<Naiya>
Like I said--this is only if you master them BOTH.

<kidjordan>
ah

<Naiya>
If you have mastered WILD and not DILD...then yeah WILD will be more consistent. hehe

<Hidden>
I thought once you knew WILD you could have a lucid whenever?

<Naiya>
WILD is finicky and different every time

<kidjordan>
which is easier to master?

<Naiya>
If you have the patience you can do it every time.

<Naiya>
But sometimes it takes me like...20+ minutes

<Naiya>
And that's a pain.

<Naiya>
Sometimes it's very easy.

<Hidden>
20 minutes wouldn't be too bad...

<Naiya>
But if I MILD it's pretty much 100% success rate.

<eternalstar01>
I've gone for about 2 hours for my longest WILD attempt (no success).... how much does that suck?!

<Hidden>
I've spent over an hour trying to WILD before. >.>

<kidjordan>
haha I wish I could fall asleep in 20 minutes

<Naiya>
hehehe. Guess I'm a little spoiled.

<Hidden>
=P

<Naiya>
As far as what is easiest--everyone is different.

<RequiemForADream>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreamachine ?

<xiper>
*Holds up sign* Reads- Just tell me when to post WILD question (lol)

<Naiya>
So one person might pick up WILD right away, while another person will have to really work at it.

<Naiya>
lol

<eternalstar01>
i'm done with trying to WILD, lol. not even remotely interested. I'm focused on DILD/MILDs

<Naiya>
Requiem, that device looks utterly terrifying O_O

<Hidden>
I was just thinking the same thing ES. Trying to WILD usualyl ends with me dreaming about attempting WILD. =P

<Naiya>
yeah.

<Naiya>
So yeah--the cons of DILD.

<RequiemForADream>
You were not trying to WILD at the beginning of the night, were you? Common mistake people make.

<Naiya>
namely, unlike WILD you don't instantly know if it worked or not

<Hidden>
o.o Requiem, that looks like a torture chamber.

<RequiemForADream>
Oh, sorry.

<Naiya>
A lot of times, with awareness or MILD, it takes a long time to really have an effect and get you lucid

<Naiya>
and if you rely on RC/DS alone, the lucids can be pretty inconsistent.

<kidjordan>
what else would you rely on?

<eternalstar01>
Nope... I always woke up naturally when I tried to WILD... and...stayed awake. Even if I stayed in bed and didn't move. I just keep waking up.

<Naiya>
MILD goes very nicely with it.

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=-=
Mode #DVA +o Alex by DreamBot

<Naiya>
So that's about it for the actual class.

<kidjordan>
ok

<Naiya>
OK, how about that WILD question now. lol

<Naiya>
and hi Alex

<kidjordan>


<Alex>


<xiper>
So while trying to MILD....I layed there and went over the MILD over and over and over till I found my body was getting numb and I had not moved my body... So I thought "well if I dont MILD ill WILD"....so about 20 min later I started to feel like I was moving... My heart rate jumped... I tryed to just keep going over the MILD after a few secs it faided... Did I mess it up?..or what?

<A^dreamer168>
I think I will not be able to make it to class tomorrow

<Naiya>
awww hehehe

<Hidden>
Isn't the next class Sunday?

<Naiya>
OH--no class tomorrow guys.

<A^dreamer168>
Going to a church dance

<Naiya>
Next, and last, is Sunday, same time.

<xiper>
also it happened again like 15 min after that

<xiper>
awww

<kidjordan>
aww

<A^dreamer168>
OK

<A^dreamer168>
YAY!!!!!!

<Naiya>
Xiper: it sounds like you were on your way to WILDing instead, yes,

<kidjordan>
Graduation party at my place

<Naiya>
But you got a bit excited and broke out of it. Am I right?

<xiper>
I guess lol

<eternalstar01>
this was likely already stated early (again - sorry!)... let's one was experienced with it, and could make it work... but lets say they also don't wake up naturally in the middle of the night (consciously, anyways)... can one still MILD quite successfully before falling asleep at the beginning of the night and still have an LD? Or should they REALLY try to...

<A^dreamer168>
Please tell me when you have another class Naiya

<eternalstar01>
...attempt a WBTB?\

<Hidden>
Does being excited end SP?

<A^dreamer168>
I enjoy you as a professor

<Naiya>
It can end it, yes.

<Naiya>
Aw

<Naiya>
I'll hopefully be doing a WILD class next time around, and then a dream control class.

<xiper>
I was just going over the MILD and I jound that easyer then counting or any other thing that WILDers do

<A^dreamer168>
Hey, I've already upped my dreaming quota

<beachgirl>
enthusiastic applause...

<xiper>
*found

<Naiya>
ES: you can still MILD at the beginning of the night

<Naiya>
That's one of its advantages. You don't NEED to WBTB to MILD.

<kidjordan>
since I was gone could you tell me how to MILD?

<kidjordan>
and would WBTBing help your MILD?

<Naiya>
WBTB definitely helps MILDing.

<Naiya>
Don't worry about what you missed--in fact I'll post it in the forums right now so you can go and read it.

Today's lecture will be based on Seeker's WILD tutorial.

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ead.php?t=9806

Spoiler for Class 5:

[15:14] == Naiya [[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[15:14] == mode/#DVA [+o Naiya] by DreamBot
[16:41] == kidjordan [[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[16:41] <kidjordan> hello
[16:41] <kidjordan> and happy V-Day
[16:41] <@Naiya> hi and to you too.
[16:42] <kidjordan> thank you
[16:42] <kidjordan> I think this is the first class I'm on time to
[16:42] <kidjordan>
[16:43] <kidjordan> so what are we going to be learning about today?
[16:44] <@Naiya> WILD
[16:44] <@Naiya> And I WILDed this morning too, just so I'd have things fresh in my mind.
[16:44] <kidjordan> very cool
[16:44] <kidjordan> I wish I could WILD at will
[16:45] <kidjordan> hopefully I will with a little practice
[16:45] <@Naiya> Well fear not, WILD is all about practice.
[16:45] <@Naiya> IF you practice it enough and don't give up, you will master it eventually.
[16:46] <kidjordan> well I have time
[16:46] <kidjordan> so no worries
[16:46] <kidjordan> although I would like to sleep as much as possible
[16:47] <kidjordan> isn't MILD your specialty?
[16:50] <@Naiya> Yeah, about 90% of my lucids are probably MILD
[16:50] <@Naiya> WILD is the other 10%
[16:50] <@Naiya> actually it's in my sig xD
[16:50] <@Naiya> 1007 (DILDs 852, WILDs 155)
[16:50] <@Naiya> so 85% DILD and 15% WILD.
[16:51] <kidjordan> Yeah all 4 of my LD's have been DILD's
[16:52] <@Naiya> *nod* yeah
[16:53] <@Naiya> LDing is just like any other skill
[16:53] <@Naiya> you have to practice to get good
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[16:53] <@Naiya> there are always of course people who are naturally talented
[16:53] <@Naiya> hey
[16:53] <@Naiya> but the rest of us have to practice
[16:53] <RequiemForADream> hello
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[16:54] <@Naiya> uh-oh xD
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[16:55] <@Naiya> hmm od...
[16:55] <@Naiya> odd*
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[16:55] <@Naiya> wb
[16:55] == Shift [[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[16:55] == mode/#DVA [+h Shift] by DreamBot
[16:55] <@Naiya> hey shift
[16:55] <smokyspirit> Hey, everyone
[16:55] <@Naiya> Here to sit in?
[16:55] <%Shift> Hey Naiyaaaa
[16:56] <%Shift> oh, are you guys having class?
[16:56] == eternalstar01 [[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[16:56] <@Naiya> Yup, about to start in a few.
[16:56] <%Shift> I was just popping in to say hi lol
[16:56] <@Naiya> Hi ES
[16:56] <%Shift> oh nice
[16:56] <%Shift> yeah, if that's ok
[16:56] <@Naiya> Today's WILD.
[16:56] <%Shift> I won't be on very much though, only a few minutes
[16:56] <eternalstar01> haihai!!
[16:56] <RequiemForADream> Hey, Shift.**How's it going?
[16:56] <@Naiya> Last class.
[16:56] <%Shift> oh, perfect
[16:56] <@Naiya> No problem
[16:56] <%Shift> I get to be a total newbie too
[16:56] <@Naiya> hehe
[16:56] <smokyspirit> Hey, ES
[16:57] <eternalstar01> how is everyone?
[16:57] <@Naiya> Good
[16:57] <smokyspirit> Superb Yourself?
[16:57] <%Shift> oh hey Requiem
[16:58] <@Naiya> we'll give it about 5 minutes before starting
[16:58] <eternalstar01> good, good
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[16:59] <%Shift> I like the 'QUESTION!!!' system you have set up
[16:59] <@Naiya> hehe yeah
[16:59] <%Shift> my class totally needed that to keep from going off track... every... single.... time
[16:59] <%Shift> lol
[16:59] <@Naiya> makes it easy so I don't miss questions
[16:59] <@Naiya> cause sometimes I type along and I may not notice them
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[16:59] <%Shift> Gosh I'm the opposite
[16:59] <@Naiya> wb kid
[16:59] <kidjordan> I don't know what happened
[16:59] <%Shift> I'll get like 12 convos going at once and totally lose track of what I should be doing, it's madness
[17:00] <kidjordan> I think my comp stopped working for a second
[17:00] <@Naiya> aww xD
[17:00] <@Naiya> yeah. we have to stick to the lecture or we run out of time lol
[17:00] <kidjordan> tragic *sniff*
[17:00] <@Naiya> with only 5 classes
[17:01] <@Naiya> barely had enoguh time to go over the basics in each class, too xD but it is an intro class so yeah
[17:01] <%Shift> yeah
[17:01] <%Shift> I think I went too far into each lol
[17:01] <%Shift> but!
[17:01] <%Shift> don't let me intrude, I'm sure your students might have some news or questions too
[17:01] <RequiemForADream> Hey, Shift.**What is going on next after this class?
[17:01] <%Shift> lol
[17:01] <kidjordan> YEAH
[17:02] <%Shift> questions for me XD
[17:02] <@Naiya> lol
[17:02] <%Shift> I'm planning on teaching a recall course
[17:02] <%Shift> but I have got absolutely no idea whatsoever when I'll be free to
[17:02] <@Naiya> I will probably teach a WILD class.
[17:02] <kidjordan> sign me up
[17:02] <%Shift> hehe
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[17:02] <kidjordan> welcome
[17:02] <@Naiya> I won't be teaching another class for at least a week or so, because Alex asked me to take care of some other projects first.
[17:02] <%Shift> aw
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[17:02] <Hidden> hey
[17:02] <kidjordan>
[17:02] <RequiemForADream> I'm going to write you a letter explaining how to reshape the DVA in my image.
[17:02] <eternalstar01> i'll go to both!
[17:02] <%Shift> lmao
[17:02] <%Shift> please do
[17:03] <%Shift> just an fyi for anyone who wants to take recall
[17:03] <Hidden> ?
[17:03] <%Shift> obviously keeping a DJ is going to be key, and so people who show that they're already capable of sticking with it will look better than those who can't
[17:03] <@Naiya> hehe
[17:03] <kidjordan> so when do you think the class will start?
[17:03] <Hidden> Are you teaching a recall class Shift?
[17:03] <%Shift> ya
[17:03] <%Shift> really no clue
[17:03] <Hidden> cool
[17:03] <%Shift> probably not for a week at minimum
[17:04] <eternalstar01> I started a new DJ in the forums, you can't hold the low entry count against me!
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[17:05] <@Naiya>
[17:06] <kidjordan> I would just like to throw this out
[17:06] <kidjordan> requiem for a dream is a great movie
[17:06] <kidjordan>
[17:06] <@Naiya> hehehe
[17:07] <kidjordan> thankyou hulu for free movies
[17:07] <RequiemForADream> "Juice by Sarah, juice by Sarah, juice by Sarah oh, Sarah's got juice, Sarah's got juice, ohhhhhhhh Sarah."
[17:07] <@Naiya> OK...let's get started
[17:07] <kidjordan> yup
[17:07] <@Naiya> Today's lecture is based on a tutorial Seeker made way back when called the five phases of WILD.
[17:08] <@Naiya> I linked it in the clas syllabus
[17:08] <@Naiya> I really feel like it is one of the best because it breaks things up into clear stages.
[17:09] <@Naiya> The five phases of WILD are: Phase 1: Preparation Phase 2: Awakening Phase 3: Relaxation Phase 4: Transition Phase 5: Stabilization
[17:09] <@Naiya> So going right to Preparation
[17:10] <@Naiya> We already know that the best times for WILD are later in the night after we've gone through several sleep cycles.
[17:10] <@Naiya> For most people the best time to WILD will be around 5-6 hours after they initially go to sleep. However, we're all a little different so you may have to experiment with the best WBTB time
[17:11] <@Naiya> There are also naps, of course
[17:11] <Hidden> Gah, I have to go. =/
[17:12] <@Naiya> Aw, ok hudden
[17:12] <Hidden> sorry
[17:12] <Hidden> I'll read the log later
[17:12] <@Naiya> mk
[17:12] <Hidden> bye all
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[17:12] <eternalstar01> nini, hidden!
[17:12] <@Naiya> Preparation is the stuff you do BEFORE your WBTB or before you lay down to WILD if it's a nap.
[17:12] <@Naiya> First and formost is an alarm if you don't wake naturally or aren't napping to wake yourself up.
[17:13] <@Naiya> WILDing is really best dont on a night that you don't have to get up early the next day
[17:13] <@Naiya> nothing ruined concentration like the nagging feeling that you're losing precious sleep every minute and you have to get up soon.
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[17:13] <@Naiya> ruins*
[17:14] <eternalstar01> hells yes
[17:14] <@Naiya> Having another person in your bed can also be a big problem.
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[17:14] <kidjordan> I hate my computer
[17:15] <@Naiya> You want to make sure that when you attempt the WILD, the room will be dark and quiet and you will not be disturbed. This is very important.
[17:15] <kidjordan> QUESTION
[17:15] <@Naiya> yes?
[17:15] <kidjordan> how do the sleep cycles in naps compare to the sleep cycles in normal sleep?
[17:16] <kidjordan> are they longer, shorter or what?
[17:16] <@Naiya> Naps generally are similar to how your sleep cycle is after a full night's sleep.
[17:16] <kidjordan> so long REM periods?
[17:16] <@Naiya> So generally they have longer REM periods or you may go right to REM.
[17:17] <kidjordan> alright
[17:17] <@Naiya> That's why if you are a napper, WILD is a good option.
[17:17] <kidjordan> thats good news
[17:17] <@Naiya> yup
[17:17] <@Naiya> If you nap during the day or something you may want to consider a fan or some other white noise and a mask for your eyes.
[17:18] <@Naiya> Or even during the night if you want to be extra sure you won't be disturbed.
[17:18] <eternalstar01> so people with partners with chronic cuddling problems will have a lot of trouble here?
[17:18] <beachgirl> be right back...
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[17:19] <@Naiya> ES: lol yes, you may want to try WILD in another room
[17:19] <@Naiya> IT may even help you WILD if you sleep in a place you don't normally sleep like the couch.
[17:19] <@Naiya> just besure you tell your partner what you're doing so they don't think you're mad at them XD
[17:20] <@Naiya> When you WBTB be sure that you are fine with losing 30-60 minutes of sleep. Every WILD is different, even if you're good at it. Sometimes it just plain takes longer. You have to be patient with it.
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[17:20] <@Naiya> The good thing about WBTB is that unlike a nap, you KNOW you're tired enough that you will eventually go to sleep.
[17:21] <@Naiya> The trick of the WILD is keeping yourself focused enough to be conscious as you fall back asleep.
[17:21] <@Naiya> One more thing to mention about this stage--don't drink alcohol before bed, or take any medication or drugs that will make you sleepy. You need to be alert.
[17:22] <@Naiya> Moving on the to Awakening stage
[17:22] <@Naiya> first things first--when you WBTB for WILD, go to the bathroom. Trust me.
[17:22] <@Naiya> You don't want to ruin your WILD because you realize you need to go in the middle of it.
[17:22] <@Naiya> So just go, even if you don't really think you need to
[17:23] <eternalstar01> speaking from experience?
[17:23] <@Naiya> Turn the lights on for a minute and write down any dreams you had. The trick is, like I said, to wake your mind up enough that you'll stay focused, but not so much that you won't be able to relax.
[17:23] <@Naiya> hehe yup
[17:24] <@Naiya> So it depends on whether you fall asleep fast or slow.
[17:25] <@Naiya> If you tend to fall asleep very fast, then try a lnger WBTB. Do a quick sudoku or something that will turn on your brain. Walk around the house for a minute.
[17:25] <@Naiya> If you fall asleep slowly, try not to turn on bright lights and have nightlights around so you can make it to the bathroom or across the room without tripping.
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[17:26] <@Naiya> And try some relaxation exercises when going back to bed. IF you have a hard time falling asleep quickly, a shorter WBTB is better.
[17:26] <@Naiya> OK, on to part 3!
[17:26] <@Naiya> Relaxation.
[17:27] <@Naiya> There are a bunch of good ways to do this, so again you can try a few and see what works best for you. This is probably the hardest part because a lot of us get bored or frustrated.
[17:27] <@Naiya> Too relaxed and you fall asleep--too excited and you stay awake.
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[17:28] <@Naiya> Normally in thei stage I focus on any HH.
[17:28] <@Naiya> A fan or white noise can be really useful in this.
[17:28] <@Naiya> this*
[17:28] <@Naiya> If and when you exerpeince any HH, just experience it passively, and imagine that you're already dreaming and it's part of the dream.
[17:29] <@Naiya> You may find that you will start seeing images like a movie playing, but if you focus on them directly they will disappear. So just relax and allow them to come.
[17:29] <eternalstar01> ./lightbulb!
[17:29] <@Naiya> Some people like to count or use a mantra at this time (ie I am dreaming) this is fine too so long as it doesn't distract you.
[17:30] <@Naiya> personally I try to have an awareness that I am dreaming without mentally thinking the words, but that may be a little too hard for some people to start with.
[17:30] <eternalstar01> QUESTION!
[17:30] <@Naiya> yup?
[17:31] <eternalstar01> Does it kind of feel like, the words are coming at you, rather than you are consciously thinking them? I get that sometimes... is that what I'm looking for?
[17:31] <@Naiya> hmm sometimes o.o
[17:31] <@Naiya> sometimes it's just a vague feeling though, without any words at all.
[17:31] <eternalstar01> or just that.... you're thinking it, but not directing it
[17:32] <@Naiya> you're in kind of a twilight zone in that state of consciousness so a lot of things can easily get tangled or confused or indescribable.
[17:32] <@Naiya> In any case, when thinking or doing anything during the WILD, my advice is to be gentle with it
[17:33] <@Naiya> be gentle with your thoughts to yourself, like when you see an image don't think WOW I SEE SOMETHING!!!
[17:33] <@Naiya> instead more like...hmmm I'll be dreaming soon
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[17:34] <@Naiya> Another thing that is useful in this stage is imagining that you're in a boat or ocean or something. Tactile hallucinations are really easy to get started, for me anyway
[17:35] <@Naiya> And if you focus on them, they can often carry you right through to a dream. (This was exactly how I WILDed this morning).
[17:35] == kidjordan [[email protected]] has joined #DVA
[17:35] <@Naiya> OK on to the next phase! Transition.
[17:35] <@Naiya> This is normally where you'd feel some major vibrations from SP.
[17:36] <@Naiya> Not everyone will experience vibrations every time, but when you do it's really useful because it tells you that you ARE entering the dream now.
[17:37] <@Naiya> If you are in SP for too long and feel stuck, just try imagining yourself sitting up in bed or seeing the wall in front of you across the room. If you do this, normally the dream will begin and the vibrations will cease.
[17:38] <pllplp> it was mentioned before i just want to make sure i got it right the vibrations are hh not nesecarilly a part of sp
[17:38] <@Naiya> In any case in this stage, you will normally not feel your physical senses--it's all dream senses now. So HH will also be amped up. Sometimes it can give you scary or startling things so try not to let it shake you, because it can wake you up.
[17:38] <beachgirl> QUESTION
[17:38] <@Naiya> Vibrations are pretty much a classic part of SP.
[17:39] <@Naiya> SP is basically an episode in which you feel paralyzed, and in that episode you get various HH such as vibrations, ringing in your ears ect.
[17:39] <@Naiya> Generally though the vibrations are not felt outside of an episode of SP.
[17:39] <@Naiya> beachgirl: yes?
[17:40] <beachgirl> is it ever a good idea to try to end that phase of vibrations deliberately? Sometimes i hang out here being non-goal-oriented but maybe i'm taking too long? i guess i enjoy the vibrations but i could be doing more viusalizing?
[17:40] <beachgirl> i am not getting much HH at this point
[17:41] <@Naiya> Hmm yeah. I would say you probably don't want to stay in SP for too long. If it's been more than a minute or two, you should probably start to visualize a dream.
[17:41] <beachgirl> wow... i am taking way too long here... thanks
[17:41] <@Naiya> because SP won't always automatically bring you to the dream--it usually does but I've had times where I've been stuck in SP for ages and basically waste the entire dream in that state, and then wake up. it SUCKS.
[17:42] <beachgirl> QUESTION
[17:42] <@Naiya> yup?
[17:42] <beachgirl> does anyone know why sometimes we get SP and other times not?
[17:42] <beachgirl> or HH
[17:42] <@Naiya> No...we really don't know why.
[17:43] <beachgirl> does one need that to WILD during the night?
[17:43] <@Naiya> It's just one of those things about the human body and nature. It's not always consistent in things.
[17:43] <@Naiya> You don't need SP to WILD--it just helps a lot
[17:44] <beachgirl> QUESTION
[17:44] <@Naiya> as for HH, theoretically you don't NEED it to WILD I've never heard of people not having it unless they DEILD in like ten seconds or something lol.
[17:44] <@Naiya> yup?
[17:44] <beachgirl> i have this idea that i have to lie on my back... how important is this? sometimes this works for me and other times i'd rather not.
[17:44] <eternalstar01> QUESTION also...
[17:44] <@Naiya> hehe ok xD BG first, then ES.
[17:45] <@Naiya> You don't have to lie on your back
[17:45] <eternalstar01> What do you do when SP is extremely uncomfortable?
[17:45] <@Naiya> I never do. Always on my side.
[17:45] <@Naiya> If SP is really uncomfortable, you have three choices.
[17:45] <@Naiya> You can ride it out, hope it subsides and try to enter the dream
[17:46] <@Naiya> You can try visualizing the dream, like I said before, because once the dream starts it will go away generally.
[17:46] <@Naiya> Or last case scnario if it's REALLY bad...focus on shaking your head. Once you break the SP by moving you'll be awake. Course then you'll wake up from the WILD...but yeah.
[17:48] <eternalstar01> another QUESTION!
[17:48] <@Naiya> yup? xD
[17:48] <eternalstar01> Should SP be easy to break? Cos... it seems like it is, to me...
[17:49] <@Naiya> With everything else....it depends xD
[17:49] <eternalstar01> I mean, I have to think about it, but... it's generally pretty easy
[17:49] <@Naiya> sometimes it's very easy to break out of. Sometimes it's practically impossible. Have no idea why
[17:49] <@Naiya> Generally with WILD--things vary both from person to person AND WILD to WILD.
[17:50] <@Naiya> That's why there are a billion tricks for WILDing and they don't seem to work for anyone but the person who created them. Haha.
[17:50] <@Naiya> WILD is all about practicing and getting to know how your own body and mind work. You need to be able to feel out the changes in consciousness on your own and be able to navigate them again later.
[17:50] <eternalstar01> fantastic! lol
[17:51] <@Naiya> Yeah hehe That is also why so many give up on WILD. At the end of the day, you're the only person who can teach it to yourself because we all have different bodily cues.
[17:51] <@Naiya> OK, anymore questions before I get to the last part?
[17:52] <@Naiya> Mk. Last phase is Stabilization
[17:53] <@Naiya> In this phase, you should be entering the dream state. We'll cover a few common problems with destabilization here.
[17:54] <@Naiya> First of all is the whole "I see only total blackness" thing. If you've already gone past SP, the SP subsides and you see only blackness...you can try simply opening your dream eyes or visualizing yourself sitting up.
[17:55] <@Naiya> You should start getting some hazy vision. IF not that, try your tactile senses: what are you feeling right now? assure yourself that you are now dreaming and that you should be feeling, hearing, and seeing things.
[17:55] <@Naiya> one that goes hand in hand with this is a false awakening. You do the WILD, get SP and everything is black. You decide it must have failed, so you sit up. But wait--are you really awake, or is this finally thr dream?
[17:55] <@Naiya> Be sure that you ALWAYS RC after a WILD attempe.
[17:56] <@Naiya> attempt*
[17:56] <@Naiya> Getting excited is another common problem that happens in WILD and DILD. When this happens, simply calm damn, breath slowly, deeply and steadily, relax and look around you.
[17:57] <@Naiya> General stabilization stuff we covered before also works in WILD.
[17:57] <@Naiya> For example this morning when I WILDed, my vision was very hazy, like inky black clouds in my peripherals
[17:57] <@Naiya> I stared at my hands for a few seconds, but this did not help me (sometimes focusing on an object close to you helps).
[17:58] <@Naiya> Then I put my hands on my closet door and felt it, pushing up against it for a few seconds. This helped stabilize the dream and made my vision clear.
[17:58] <@Naiya> rubbing your hands can also help. For some, spinning will help (although personally I don't recommend spinning).
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[18:00] <@Naiya> So to sum it up, WILD is really all about patience and practice. The more you get used to keeping yourself conscious (or trying to) during your body's transitions, the easier it will be to try again next time.
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[18:00] <@Naiya> That pretty much concludes the WILD lecture.
[18:00] <@Naiya> Now open for any more questions.

[18:00] <beachgirl> QUESTION
[18:00] <kidjordan> could you please post this in the syllabus? I missed half of it because of computer problems
[18:02] <smokyspirit> Awesome! My interest in WILDs has been reignited Good night, everyone...
[18:02] == smokyspirit [[email protected]] has quit [Client exited]
[18:02] <kidjordan> I have trouble staying up
[18:02] <beachgirl> what is the range of time that it takes to start the SP/HH process? ie anywhere from x to z...assuming it's been about 5 or 6 hours
[18:02] <kidjordan> I either fall asleep or I become really awake
[18:03] <kidjordan> yeah

[18:03] <kidjordan> I second her question
[18:03] <@Naiya> I'll post the pecture now
[18:04] <@Naiya> BG: hmm it depends.
[18:04] <@Naiya> But with HH it should normally be pretty soon, like ten minutes max unless you're pretty awake and alert.
[18:04] <@Naiya> I really hate to give exact timeframes because like I said it's different for everyone.
[18:05] <kidjordan> I usually fall asleep really quickly or really really slowly
[18:05] <@Naiya> for example one night you're very tired, so you drift off quickly. And another night you're wide awake so it takes a half hour before anything happens. It all depends.
[18:05] <@Naiya> That's why when you WILD you want to set aside a long time to devote to it and try to stick with the WILD for as long as possible.

Test will be posted sometime tonight.


By the way, guys, the class itself is officially over--so you don't need to keep updating your dream journals in the library. You can if you want, but technically I'm giving you access to the class forums for another week mainly so you can look back at lectures before taking the final.

OK, as promised here is the final exam. It will be up for exactly one week. This time next week you will all be moved out of the student usergroup unless you are in another class. You must take the final exam to get your badge!


PLEASE PM ME YOUR ANSWERS TO THE EXAM QUESTIONS.


Do not post them!

Spoiler for Final Exam:

1. What is required for a dream to be lucid?


2. Name the sleep stages. Which stage(s) are considered slow wave sleep?


3. In what sleep stage do dreams normally occur?


4. Describe three ways one can improve dream recall.


5. What is HH? Give an example of HH.


6. What is SP? When does it normally occur? What are the classic symptoms of SP?


7. What is one way to stabilize a dream?


8. What is the difference between DILD and WILD?


9. Name 3 DILD induction techniques and give a short explanation of what they are.


10. It is often said that one should not attempt a WILD when they first go to bed at night, and instead attempt the WILD during a WBTB after 4-5 hours. Why is this?