Thread: WHY has this not changed everything??

In an ideal world this would have been snapped up by a car company and used for its intended purpose. Sadly, in the real world the car manufacturers have nothing on big oil companies who are probably the ones who will buy this guy out to protect their market.

Infrastructure is one of the biggest barriers to alternative energy. We have gas stations literally everywhere that can pump gasoline quite effectively. The problem here is that to turn that invention into a widespread car, you have to start replacing gas stations with salt water stations. And then you need something to create the radio waves. A car battery and alternator may be able to do the job, but if not, that poses a new problem. If indeed outside electricity must be brought in, that electricity has to come from somewhere, and that somewhere usually being coal-fired powerplants.

I'm more interested in how this actually works. Is it splitting the water molecules into oxygen and hydrogen? If so, then why saltwater? I can't remember the colour of burning salt, but is it red?

I think the goverment want problems in the world just to say there doing something.

Cool invention. I wonder if it's energy efficient. That is, if it produces more energy than is used to split the water molecules. However, I see one potential problem in using it to treat cancer. Humans are full of salt water.

Originally Posted by Marvo

I'm more interested in how this actually works. Is it splitting the water molecules into oxygen and hydrogen? If so, then why saltwater? I can't remember the colour of burning salt, but is it red?

Sodium chloride burns with a yellow or a yellow-orange colour.

I looked into it a little and they said the water burns then reforms into water. So the byproduct is water. Which means you put in salt water, and get out energy and pure water. Forget running cars on this. If the numbers work right you can produce clean drinking water from salt water possibly for free, possibly with a net gain of energy.

If you get a process that creates energy and clean drinking water, no car or gas company is going to stop that.

Now if the numbers don't work out, and it takes more energy to run the radio wave generator than you gain from burning the water, all is not lost. Desalination can be very expensive, so as long as there is very little loss of energy in the process it may make desalination far cheaper in the future.

Clean water for everyone is in my opinion an even better goal that cheap car gas.

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It amazes me the potential of this invention, yet at the same time it almost makes me sick to my stomach that no one is taking inventions like this seriously, and we're still dealing with oil. What gives?

Alternative energy opportunities are clearly out there, yet why must we take a one-ticket ride to hell in a hand basket?

Nobody takes it seriously Deery because, unfortunately, it's crackpot science; naturally with the exception of news channels whose science reporters increasingly seem to have literally no understanding of the subject they report on.

This 'invention' has been invented time and time again by amateur technicians for more than a century. However, all you need to know to understand why it can't possibly work is the First Law of Thermodynamics which is possibly one of the most basic and simple principles in the whole of science... it's literally one of the first things you ever learn as a kid.

The first law says that you can't get something for free; you can't create energy.

What this device does is electrolyses water into oxygen and hydrogen, and then burns the hydrogen (bearing in mind that burning is just reacting with oxygen), turning it back into water.

Just consider what would happen if you kept doing this over and over; you'd have an infinite source of free energy, which is impossible.

What actually happens here is that the amount of electrical energy you have to put into the water during electrolysis will be equal to the amount of heat energy you get back out of it; and, as no process is anywhere near 100% efficient, if you were to repeat this what would actually happen is that you would very quickly lose energy.

All this process does is store electrical energy in the form of hydrogen, and then release it. In other words, it is no more a source of energy than a battery is; that is to say, not at all.

Oil on the other hand is not something we have to put energy into; the energy is already there. That's why oil is a fuel.

What this technology is useful for is that it provides a good way (there are others) of turning electrical energy into a store of energy that can be used for transport. As Mario says though, at the moment most of our electrical energy comes from non-renewable sources in the first place, so the problem is not averted at all. Only when all of our electricity is generated by clean sources, and we have a hydrogen infrastructure in place, will this be of any use.

Originally Posted by Xei

Nobody takes it seriously Deery because, unfortunately, it's crackpot science; naturally with the exception of news channels whose science reporters increasingly seem to have literally no understanding of the subject they report on.

This 'invention' has been invented time and time again by amateur technicians for more than a century. However, all you need to know to understand why it can't possibly work is the First Law of Thermodynamics which is possibly one of the most basic and simple principles in the whole of science... it's literally one of the first things you ever learn as a kid.

The first law says that you can't get something for free; you can't create energy.

What this device does is electrolyses water into oxygen and hydrogen, and then burns the hydrogen (bearing in mind that burning is just reacting with oxygen), turning it back into water.

Just consider what would happen if you kept doing this over and over; you'd have an infinite source of free energy, which is impossible.

What actually happens here is that the amount of electrical energy you have to put into the water during electrolysis will be equal to the amount of heat energy you get back out of it; and, as no process is anywhere near 100% efficient, if you were to repeat this what would actually happen is that you would very quickly lose energy.

All this process does is store electrical energy in the form of hydrogen, and then release it. In other words, it is no more a source of energy than a battery is; that is to say, not at all.

Oil on the other hand is not something we have to put energy into; the energy is already there. That's why oil is a fuel.

What this technology is useful for is that it provides a good way (there are others) of turning electrical energy into a store of energy that can be used for transport. As Mario says though, at the moment most of our electrical energy comes from non-renewable sources in the first place, so the problem is not averted at all. Only when all of our electricity is generated by clean sources, and we have a hydrogen infrastructure in place, will this be of any use.

This is all true, though I still wonder why it has to be saltwater. I guess if he had said ordinary water, it wouldn't sound as convincing or revolutionary.

Khh, the salt in saltwater is natrium chloride, not sodium chloride. I might be mistaken, but I don't think they produce the same flame colour.

Originally Posted by Lucidness

I think the goverment want problems in the world just to say there doing something.

The laws of thermodynamics are lies! Fuck the government!

This is possible, if they are breaking down salt and that releases energy. Though the more I look into it, it doesn't appear as if they are doing anything to the salt at all.

Originally Posted by Marvo

This is all true, though I still wonder why it has to be saltwater. I guess if he had said ordinary water, it wouldn't sound as convincing or revolutionary.

Saltwater is a better conductor and electrolyzes faster. From my days of making hydrogen and blowing shit up >_>...

Edit: In fact, completely pure water doesn't conduct electricity at all.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Saltwater is a better conductor and electrolyzes faster. From my days of making hydrogen and blowing shit up >_>...

Edit: In fact, completely pure water doesn't conduct electricity at all.

I suppose that is true, though it's difficult to get a hold of water that doesn't conduct electricity.

Edit: In fact, completely pure water doesn't conduct electricity at all.

Really? Why not?

Originally Posted by Xei

Really? Why not?

I think it has to do with ions in the water. Most water usually has some sort of ion in it...calcium, sodium chloride, nitrates, whatever. The ions conduct the electricity. The water only serves as a medium into which the ions are dissolved. Pure distilled water makes a shitty conductor.

Salt water seems a bit...cumbersome for any extended period. The salt will build up and coat nearly any surface. An acid will conduct electricity just as well as salt.

This invention doesn't work by electrolysing the salt (I don't think so, anyway), it works by electrolysing the water into hydrogen and oxygen... a process in which the water effectively conducts electricity. I don't see any reason other ions need to be included to allow this to happen...

Pure water actually has a small ionic component; there's an equilibrium between the water molecules and hydroxide and hydrogen ions.

Originally Posted by Xei

This invention doesn't work by electrolysing the salt (I don't think so, anyway), it works by electrolysing the water into hydrogen and oxygen... a process in which the water effectively conducts electricity. I don't see any reason other ions need to be included to allow this to happen...

Pure water actually has a small ionic component; there's an equilibrium between the water molecules and hydroxide and hydrogen ions.

You are correct that it elecrolyzes the water, not the salt. The salt ions, however, help to conduct the electricity. Think of an electric fence. The wire conducts the electricity, but anything that touches the wire is also affected.

Originally Posted by Xei

This invention doesn't work by electrolysing the salt (I don't think so, anyway), it works by electrolysing the water into hydrogen and oxygen... a process in which the water effectively conducts electricity. I don't see any reason other ions need to be included to allow this to happen...

Pure water actually has a small ionic component; there's an equilibrium between the water molecules and hydroxide and hydrogen ions.

Xei, H2O practically can't conduct electricity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_conductivity

Look at the conductivity of water, compared to drinking water. Extremely low.

Yes I know all that. This isn't really related to Spartiate's assertion though that water alone can't be electrolysed.

Ah, I'm actually not sure about that. I asked my brother, he said no, but I'm not sure.

Apologies Marvo, I was responding to Mario and didn't realise you posted.

In response to what you said; there's not really such a thing as 'practically impossible' in science... lots of zeros may make a number look small but all this means is that you need to increase various variables which typically allow for huge variation; for example, in this circumstance there's no practical reason you can't just increase the voltage a thousandfold with a transformer.

If it was 'practically impossible' for pure water to conduct electricity, then how do we get hydrogen from electrolysing water; something which is most definitely possible?

Salt water conducts a lot easier because it just electrolyses the salt ions instead of the hydroxide and hydrogen ions, which are much more abundant in the solution.

Originally Posted by Xei

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in addition: why would anybody in the oil industry ever want there to be access to a (purported) energy source like this? a lack of innovation can be profitable, unfortunately.

I'm not sure what you mean by that... what's the relation of desalination to this?

Originally Posted by Xei

Apologies Marvo, I was responding to Mario and didn't realise you posted.

In response to what you said; there's not really such a thing as 'practically impossible' in science... lots of zeros may make a number look small but all this means is that you need to increase various variables which typically allow for huge variation; for example, in this circumstance there's no practical reason you can't just increase the voltage a thousandfold with a transformer.

If it was 'practically impossible' for pure water to conduct electricity, then how do we get hydrogen from electrolysing water; something which is most definitely possible?

Salt water conducts a lot easier because it just electrolyses the salt ions instead of the hydroxide and hydrogen ions, which are much more abundant in the solution.

Heh, I don't know enough about physics and chemistry to really answer any of this. I'm not even sure if the effectivity/speed of the electrolysing process is any quicker if the water is highly conductive or not.

The reason for practically not being able to increase the voltage a thousand fold is that such a transformer wouldn't be practical

Originally Posted by Marvo

Heh, I don't know enough about physics and chemistry to really answer any of this. I'm not even sure if the effectivity/speed of the electrolysing process is any quicker if the water is highly conductive or not.

We did an experiment in class to this effect once. We found that there was a very distinct difference between distilled water and water with ions in it. Ions do, in fact, improve the rate of electrolyzation, and significantly at that.