Thread: DO you think there is a patriarchy in the U.S?

Originally Posted by snoop

I'm voting no but that's because everyone already thinks they know they answer, lol. It's an argument with skewed "empirical facts" backing it up, pretty much like any other controversial matter. I'm not saying the facts it uses are therefore useless, but unless I can see many transparent studies backing you guys up I'm going to stick with saying it isn't as much a thing as everyone making it out to be. OP, I think it would have helped if you had not only laid out an accurate, succinct description of patriarchy and then posit whether it is or isn't a good thing. bad things, or at least capable of both. Issues, especially like this aren't cut and dry so I refuse to try it as such except in regards to anything scientifically related to it.

What I said are facts though, 80% of all leadership positions in US government is held by men. Those are totally objective and verifiable numbers. There isn't any doubt in that at all, since we can simply count them.

Originally Posted by Alric

What I said are facts though, 80% of all leadership positions in US government is held by men. Those are totally objective and verifiable numbers. There isn't any doubt in that at all, since we can simply count them.

I'm not seeing how that proves anything. You would also need to demonstrate that women, on average, want to get into politics (and spend the time, money, and effort) at least as much as men. Because if they just don't have political ambitions, then that explains the statistic. Sure, you got your Hillary Clinton, but where are all the women running for governor, mayor, councilor, alderman, etc? Except for the very high-profile positions of power, women are generally not that interested.

Originally Posted by cmind

I'm not seeing how that proves anything. You would also need to demonstrate that women, on average, want to get into politics (and spend the time, money, and effort) at least as much as men. Because if they just don't have political ambitions, then that explains the statistic. Sure, you got your Hillary Clinton, but where are all the women running for governor, mayor, councilor, alderman, etc? Except for the very high-profile positions of power, women are generally not that interested.

That's the issue though, for the most part women aren't interested in politics because it's traditionally a male-dominated field. It wasn't until very recently that we as a society started encouraging women to participate. We've created a culture where women don't typically talk about politics because it isn't really a part of their imagination (in the same way that guys don't typically talk about make-up because it has no place in our imagination). It's not that we intentionally keep women down, our culture has just developed in such a way that women are (in a sense) sent down one conveyor belt while men are sent on another. Our's leads to the top, while there's simply doesn't.

Originally Posted by GavinGill

That's the issue though, for the most part women aren't interested in politics because it's traditionally a male-dominated field. It wasn't until very recently that we as a society started encouraging women to participate. We've created a culture where women don't typically talk about politics because it isn't really a part of their imagination (in the same way that guys don't typically talk about make-up because it has no place in our imagination). It's not that we intentionally keep women down, our culture has just developed in such a way that women are (in a sense) sent down one conveyor belt while men are sent on another. Our's leads to the top, while there's simply doesn't.

Maybe things are different wherever you live, but I went to school up here in Canada. Girls were never discouraged in any way, implicitly or explicitly, from political life. If anything, it was the boys who were discouraged. If you have any evidence of girls being turned away from leadership positions, I'd love to hear it. Because right now it sounds like you're just making stuff up. And once you say "it's cultural!", it becomes unfalsifiable.

Originally Posted by cmind

Maybe things are different wherever you live, but I went to school up here in Canada. Girls were never discouraged in any way, implicitly or explicitly, from political life. If anything, it was the boys who were discouraged. If you have any evidence of girls being turned away from leadership positions, I'd love to hear it. Because right now it sounds like you're just making stuff up. And once you say "it's cultural!", it becomes unfalsifiable.

You misunderstood my post, or rather, I probably could have worded that better.

I didn't mean to say that women are discouraged from participating, just that politics isn't presented as something that's inherently "for women." Discouraging them would be intentional, and we don't live in a society that intentionally undermines women.

Originally Posted by snoop

So wait if we are arguing the fact that there simply aren't women in politics because they don't want to be there, what's the issue?

It's not that women don't want to be involved with politics at all, just that there's a smaller number of women that are interested (or able to, for one reason or another) in participating than there are men. The reasons why the rest don't feel politically inclined are part of the issue.

Originally Posted by snoop

If they feel they are not being properly represented, then that's another story.

That's a given, no? If there are hardly any women in the system, then how is the system going to effectively represent the rest of the female population? It's similar to how city council members who have lived affluently can't advocate for the poorer communities within their city, simply because they have no real understanding of those environments based on real-world experience, just an abstract idea based on what they've read or what they've heard.

Originally Posted by snoop

I have a question now, since, Gavin, you have mostly pointed out that women aren't interested in political domain.

To reiterate, there are less women who have an interest in a political career than there are men, but women in general are impacted by the political decisions made by the executive just as much as the men are. So whether or not they're interested in a political career or even a political debate, they know that decisions that effect them personally are being made by someone who can't fully represent them.

Think of this way: For a time, the Black community in America wasn't politically inclined or politically mature in any conceivable way and, as a result, very few engaged in political affairs. That left the White majority free to pass legislature that was in their best interests, without understanding how it would affect the minority. Politics just wasn't something that the Black community concerned itself with until the Marcus Garvey Movement, the Civil Rights Movement, the Black Power Movement, etc. It wasn't until then, when African-Americans first witnessed leaders from their own communities raise a big hoopla over politics, that they realized the prime importance of their participation. It wasn't until then that the Black community demanded proper representation in positions of power. And it wasn't until then that any meaningful changes were made in society.

Originally Posted by Alric

What I said are facts though, 80% of all leadership positions in US government is held by men. Those are totally objective and verifiable numbers. There isn't any doubt in that at all, since we can simply count them.

You didn't even investigate or explore what patriarchy is. Is it simply leadership positions held by men to you? Do figureheads count? What about indirect government manipulation (either us by them, or them by corporations--especially that last one, not an official office but still holds power--what about women with the pants in the relationship)? What about what cmind is saying? Don't try to make such a ghastly multi-shades-of-grey- controversy into something black and white please. I already mentioned this in my last post.