British National Party / What is 'British?'

[Xei]

The British National Party are racist idiots and you're either completely ignorant or you're a racist idiot too. Mod Note: discussion moved from Voters Dilemma thread -Taosaur Xei's note: I didn't create this thread, and although I do consider the BNP to be a pack of at best ill-informed and at worst outright racist people, it's not a preoccupation of mine, and I will only bring it up when somebody makes an objectionable statement which I feel inclined to correct.

[Thatperson]

The British National Party are racist idiots and you're either completely ignorant or you're a racist idiot too. Well can you please define "racist idiot" so that I can tell you if I am one or not. Seeing as I agree with 95%+ of BNP policy then I assume I am under your definition a "racist idiot"

[dajo]

I just read up on them a little. Jeez, dangerous stuff. Surreal.

[Alric]

I don't know much about them, but I did a quick google check and looked on wiki and it does sound pretty racists. Basically they are opposed to anyone not white(specifically people originally from Britain, so they don't even like some whites). It sounds like they started out with a lot of bad people some even out right criminals. Though they seem to be getting more moderate. As in they are not violent but they are still racist.

[ArcanumNoctis]

Well can you please define "racist idiot" so that I can tell you if I am one or not. Seeing as I agree with 95%+ of BNP policy then I assume I am under your definition a "racist idiot" A racist is an idiot, which a racist idiot would be an idiot idiot or maybe an idiot racist. I don't know anything about BNP and could care less. Speaking of which, name calling is usually used because the name caller cannot maintain an intellectually valid discussion or debate(?). Essentially, it is belittling, which is a lame weak tactic. Furthermore, government is influenced by society. Why do people think the government screws everyone over? It is reflective of society, which there is decay.

[Maria92]

Speaking of which, name calling is usually used because the name caller cannot maintain an intellectually valid discussion or debate(?). Essentially, it is belittling, which is a lame weak tactic. Normally true, but if the name-calling is actually valid... And thatperson, if you aren't a racist, you certainly are doing a damn poor job of showing it. Your party affiliation and attitude toward muslims and (I think) gay people certainly seem to indicate that you are a bigot and a racist. And paranoid on top of that. lrn2coexist.

[ArcanumNoctis]

Normally true, but if the name-calling is actually valid... And thatperson, if you aren't a racist, you certainly are doing a damn poor job of showing it. Your party affiliation and attitude toward muslims and (I think) gay people certainly seem to indicate that you are a bigot and a racist. And paranoid on top of that. lrn2coexist. What I'm saying is people like me don't know why said individual is a racist idiot, therefore we should be educated.

[Maria92]

What I'm saying is people like me don't know why said individual is a racist idiot, therefore we should be educated. http://www.dreamviews.com/f36/islami...-europe-98577/ for a start.

[Thatperson]

could you also define bigot, My party affiliation does not make me racist, my attitude towards muslims/islam would probably warrant islamophobic but even after reading up I don't think I'm fully islamophobic, either way, not racist. I assume you're calling me a bigot for not support gay marriage. Which would make almost half of the UK bigots and a majority of americans bigots.

[Xei]

Nick Griffin says that there's no such thing as a non-white British person. Do you agree with this?

[Thatperson]

Well how would you define british? if for example a person has been born in india to indian parents has never been to britian once, marries a british citizen for the sole purpose of getting a british passport then gets one, are they british? perhaps in your eyes but in my eyes certainly not. I know there are some non-white people who are so integrated into society that they are basically british, bar their ethnicity. But where do you draw the line? The most clear cut way is to define britishness by being ethnically british. So while some people are basically for all real purposes british, you can not be fully british unless you are ehtnically british (and therefore white).

[dajo]

waste of time...

[Xei]

Well how would you define british? if for example a person has been born in india to indian parents has never been to britian once, marries a british citizen for the sole purpose of getting a british passport then gets one, are they british? perhaps in your eyes but in my eyes certainly not. I know there are some non-white people who are so integrated into society that they are basically british, bar their ethnicity. But where do you draw the line? The most clear cut way is to define britishness by being ethnically british. So while some people are basically for all real purposes british, you can not be fully british unless you are ehtnically british (and therefore white). Clear cut? Everybody in the world is descended from black people. Is that clear cut enough for you? You'd be extremely hard pressed to find a single person who doesn't have recent ancestry from outside of Britain. The whole 'indigenous British' thing makes no scientific sense. It's a product of total ignorance. I don't believe you are genuinely defending the stance that non-white people can't be counted as British people.

[Thatperson]

Clear cut? Everybody in the world is descended from black people. Is that clear cut enough for you? Yes, although everybody in the world is decended from the most common recent ancestor of all life. I'm not sure about you but I wouldn't describe my ancestry as "Part British, part single celled organism" You'd be extremely hard pressed to find a single person who doesn't have recent ancestry from outside of Britain. Ermm.. ok me for one. In 1930 the ethnic minority population was very small, sub 1% So if anyone has all 4 grandparents who are ethnically british, then chances are their entire ancestry is British. Before you ask, I've traced my family history back on all lines to at least 1830 and it's all British. I would say this is quite common. The whole 'indigenous British' thing makes no scientific sense. It's a product of total ignorance. What am I then. I don't believe you are genuinely defending the stance that non-white people can't be counted as British people. Why do people keep thinking I'm a troll, if someone doesn't agree with them then they must be joking

[Xaqaria]

Yes, although everybody in the world is decended from the most common recent ancestor of all life. I'm not sure about you but I wouldn't describe my ancestry as "Part British, part single celled organism" Ermm.. ok me for one. In 1930 the ethnic minority population was very small, sub 1% So if anyone has all 4 grandparents who are ethnically british, then chances are their entire ancestry is British. Before you ask, I've traced my family history back on all lines to at least 1830 and it's all British. I would say this is quite common. What am I then. Why do people keep thinking I'm a troll, if someone doesn't agree with them then they must be joking Unless you are of pure celtic descent, you can not be ethnically or indigenous British. "British" is actually a mix of the invading Germanic, Norse, and Romans.

[Thatperson]

British is an indigenous group, the gene pool indeed did have some romans vikings etc added to it, but no group made up more than 5% and the original inhabitants contrivuted to 85% of the gene pool. That would almost be the equivilent of having just 1 great-grandparent non british. The things is why are you trying to nitpick? You know what I mean when I say british. When I say "Japanese man" what comes into your head A person like http://www.asiaenews.com/wp-content/...st-friends.jpg or a person like http://whatsontv.co.uk/blogs/tvspy/f...6/lost_eko.jpg

[Xei]

What doesn't come into my head is 'that black man can't possibly claim to be Japanese no matter how long he's lived there'. The things is why are you trying to nitpick? You know what I mean when I say british. I honestly don't. Precisely where is the cut-off point? 1/2 white? 3/4? 15/16? 'Cos from where I'm sitting it looks totally arbitrary. Except it happens to include you.

[Thatperson]

What doesn't come into my head is 'that black man can't possibly claim to be Japanese no matter how long he's lived there'. Well gotta hand it to you, at least you don't have double standards like many people do on the issue. I honestly don't. Precisely where is the cut-off point? 1/2 white? 3/4? 15/16? 'Cos from where I'm sitting it looks totally arbitrary. Except it happens to include you. I think a good guidline would be unable to benefit from positive discrimination. When they advertise posts for ethnic minorities only I'm sure they have some standard where you have to be no more than 3/4 British. I think if you can't tell if they appear british then they qualify, as the great man himself once said "You just look, you just know". I think if you are 7/8 british then you qualify. But then again most people are 100% british so they arn't subject to the "where do you draw the line" debate. Talking of where the line is drawn, where would you draw the line? Read my indian guy example a few posts back.

[Maria92]

could you also define bigot, My party affiliation does not make me racist, my attitude towards muslims/islam would probably warrant islamophobic but even after reading up I don't think I'm fully islamophobic, either way, not racist. I assume you're calling me a bigot for not support gay marriage. Which would make almost half of the UK bigots and a majority of americans bigots. Bigot: a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own. Blanket statements like your implication that all immigrating muslims only have a negative impact on your country and your paranoid fear of them solely based on their religion seems a hell of a lot like bigotry to me, especially when you support turning people away at the border based on whether or not they're muslim. And what happens if they say "no" but look like they're from islamic descent? Would you still turn them away? Congratulations, you're now a racist. Well how would you define british? if for example a person has been born in india to indian parents has never been to britian once, marries a british citizen for the sole purpose of getting a british passport then gets one, are they british? perhaps in your eyes but in my eyes certainly not. I know there are some non-white people who are so integrated into society that they are basically british, bar their ethnicity. But where do you draw the line? The most clear cut way is to define britishness by being ethnically british. So while some people are basically for all real purposes british, you can not be fully british unless you are ehtnically british (and therefore white).

[Thatperson]

Bigot: a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own. Blanket statements like your implication that all immigrating muslims only have a negative impact on your country and your paranoid fear of them solely based on their religion seems a hell of a lot like bigotry to me, especially when you support turning people away at the border based on whether or not they're muslim. And what happens if they say "no" but look like they're from islamic descent? Would you still turn them away? Congratulations, you're now a racist. Firstly, you and xei seem to be intolerant of my opinion, making you bigots by your own definition. Secondly, I'd turn everyone away, muslim or not. This doesn't make me racist, it makes me opposed to immigration. Xei is still yet to state where he would draw the "British/Not British" Line

[Maria92]

Firstly, you and xei seem to be intolerant of my opinion, making you bigots by your own definition. I am intolerant of intolerance. You have your opinion, and that is fine...it is a free country after all. And you do realize that calling yourself an islamophobe isn't really a point in your favor, right? Secondly, I'd turn everyone away, muslim or not. This doesn't make me racist, it makes me opposed to immigration. It also makes you a loon. Sealing off the border? What is that going to accomplish? Preserving your all-white pure British gene pool so you can breed a race of perfect humans? I think a crazy dude with a small mustache tried that back in the 1940's. It didn't end well for any involved. By sealing off the border, you may be shutting out some riffraff and preserving your own selfish desires, but you are also shutting out business, refugees, people who are simply looking for a better standard of living, people seeking a better education, doctors, people of science and medicine, inventors, entrepreneurs, and people who can generally improve the country for the better. Xei is still yet to state where he would draw the "British/Not British" Line I can't speak for Xei, but I'll give you my definition of what constitutes a Brit: a person with British citizenship, or else a person who has lived in Britain for some time and is rather devoted to the country. Lineage and descent don't matter a lick. In America, if any person presents proof of citizenship, they are a citizen and an American. Maybe we do things differently than you, but that is good enough for me.

[Scatterbrain]

Thatperson, your position is analogous to saying that a child adopted and raised by Mr. and Mrs. Smith is not a Smith.

[Alric]

To be fair, you are looking at it from an American perspective. America is considered the mixing pot of the world, and has a high degree of diversity. However, many countries around the world have very little diversity. I suspect Britain is like that, because it is an island nation. There are actually a lot of countries like that around the world. And Britain is far from the worse in this regard. While it might sound like a silly argument, its actually a pretty common view around the world, for people to view each other like that. So no he isn't a troll, and his opinion isn't all that shocking to be honest. So while he is wrong, and he is racist, he isn't a jerk. There are two types of racist people in the world. Ones who grew up without much exposure to other races, and so are wary of other races. This is often a cultural thing. And racists who irrationally hate other races, which are really jerks and bad people. Thatperson is clearly of the type who is wary of other races because he hasn't be exposed to them much in life, and not they type that irrationally hates them. He doesn't sound like he hates people of other races at all, and I suspect he would probably open up to them more, if he was exposed to them more often. Yelling at people like that clearly doesn't solve anything. And treating a person like that, the same as you would a hater who actively causes trouble is counter productive.

[Thatperson]

Indeed as america has only existed for 330ish years, americans don't form a single ethnicity. Instead it's more a mixture of various european ancesteries. As people have lived in britain continuously for 12,000 years there does exist a brithish ethnic group. This is where the terms "civicly british" and "ethnically british" come from. If you own a passport, you are civicly british, however if you are ethnically britsh you are just "british", the fact is that I and the 50 millionish others are more british than any black/asian/non british european will ever be. I would take the exact opposite view of mario92, where he says "Lineage and descent don't matter a lick" I would say having a passport doesn't matter a lick. I'd agree with alric that there are two types of "racist" the one who hates people solely due to race for no reason, and my type of 'racist' which I wouldn't even call racist, actually alric, I'd say the opposite is true, those who have no exposure of multi racial societies have nothing to worry about, whereas those living in multi racial societies see the porblems it creates. I think I'm in the middle, my area is sort of multi racial but there are much worse areas in britiain. I suspect he would probably open up to them more, if he was exposed to them more often I have a few non white friends, they know I am a member of the BNP, 1 even votes from them himself. I'm not sure what you mean open up to them, i'm not a racist, and have reasonable exposure to them.

[Xaqaria]

ThatPerson, I think you missed what I said earlier. There is an indigenous british population. They are known as the Celts. Are you Celtic? If not, then you are not indigenous to the British isles.