Thread: Hiroshima And Nagasaki

Originally Posted by Hominus

the part that bothers me the most about this topic is SOME PEOPLE think we should have awarded Japan by allowing them to surrender on their own terms. That is just rediculus. Its war. They started it (with us), so they had to pay. Period.
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Firstly, it's "ridiculous", not "rediculus".

Secondly, why can't you get it into your heads, that the ONLY condition... the ONLY condition that was preventing the negotiation of a surrender was that the Japanese wanted an assurance that the Imperial dynasty would not be dissolved...

Thirdly, the terms of the ACTUAL surrender after the two nuclear atrocities, were not in ANY significant way different from the terms of surrender the Japanese were pushing for prior to the dropping of the bombs.

Fourthly, even if they WERE different, which they WERENT, but even if they had been... America's unwillingness to accept anything less than the totaly humiliation of Japan does NOT fucking justify the murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians!

Maybe I should do some of this 'reading' stuff. I mean it clearly helps, as the blue meany has shown.

And if that all is totally true. America was just as much of a penis as it is now Becouse basicly, japan was willing to talk about surrender, as long as their little tradition stayed intact?

the blue meanie, jesus christ. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were war production cities. The civilian deaths were collateral damage.

An amphibious invasion of Japan would have resulted in MANY more deaths than the bombs did. That is a proven fact. American deaths +japanese deaths would have been double or tripple the bombing deaths easily.

Do some research on the planned invasion of japan and look at the predictions.

AAAAARGH! Jesus tapdancing christ! How many times must I say, I'm not disputing that there would have been high casualties! That's not the POINT!

I'm not SAYING that America should have invaded. It wasn't even on the cards, anyway, Japan was already defeated and willing to surrender, on the terms which were, basically, NO different from the terms of the ACTUAL surrender after ther atrocities of hiroshima and nagasaki.

eh, we had to do it. I dont think they were about to surrender. It doesnt matter what the emperor might say. He has no REAL power. The war counsil was not about to surrender. Even after the first bombing.

I believe they were about to surrender with the help of the sovites.

I agree with The Blue Meanie. His arguments make more sence.

Originally Posted by Hominus

eh, we had to do it. I dont think they were about to surrender.
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"You don't think"???!

Oh, f*%$ing great. Well, see, that's just all the evidence we need. Hominus, you've totally convinced me.



Jesus. You can lead a horse to water...

It seems like you PERSIST in believing that America was justified, and you're going to continue to believe that, even if it means ignoring evidence to the contrary. I mean... it's like I'm repeatedly slamming your head against a wall, but you still persist in believing there's no wall in front of you. Argh!

Originally Posted by The

AAAAARGH! Jesus tapdancing christ! How many times must I say, I'm not disputing that there would have been high casualties! That's not the POINT!

I'm not SAYING that America should have invaded. It wasn't even on the cards, anyway, Japan was already defeated and willing to surrender, on the terms which were, basically, NO different from the terms of the ACTUAL surrender after ther atrocities of hiroshima and nagasaki.
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Again, that is beside the point. Giving into the demands of attackers for the purpose of resolution is out of the question. It invites more attacks from the attackers and others. It is so weak that it is extremely dangerous. But you are not accurately illustrating the situation any way. We allowed the government to remain only because they agreed to reforms that we wanted. Those reforms were in fact NOT part of their war resolution demands. They were our demands.

Will somebody please finally explain why you think the Japanese were about to surrender before the first nuking even though they did not surrender after the first nuking? Nobody has explained that yet.

Originally Posted by Universal

Again, that is beside the point. Giving into the demands of attackers for the purpose of resolution is out of the question. It invites more attacks from the attackers and others. It is so weak that it is extremely dangerous. But you are not accurately illustrating the situation any way. We allowed the government to remain only because they agreed to reforms that we wanted. Those reforms were in fact NOT part of their war resolution demands. They were our demands.
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Argh! Japan didn't MAKE any demands, other than the desire to keep the emperor in power, which was in America's best interests anyway, given the Emperor's leavel-headedness and moderation. Truman basically ignored ALL japanese attempts to initiate diplomatic dialogue, and said "Fuck it, let's just drop a couple of nukes on them, and then we'll let them surrender, on the exact same terms that they are now pushing for anyway".

And EVEN IF Japan HAD made any demands (which they didn't, other than keeping their emperor), Japan's unwillingness to totally and utterly lick America's boot and accept absolutely unconditional surrender does NOT justify the slaying of hundreds of thousands. EVEN IF the Japanese were not prepared to accept a totally unconditional surrender, this does not justify America dropping the bombs, when they could have been fucking REASONABLE and negotiated a conditional surrender.

Originally Posted by Universal

Will somebody please finally explain why you think the Japanese were about to surrender before the first nuking even though they did not surrender after the first nuking? Nobody has explained that yet.
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Hiroshima scared the japanese government shitless. Prior to hiroshima, they had basically trumpeted their willingness to agree to a surrender. Fucking asswipe Truman had not only refused to let them surrender, but her had refused to even LISTEN to their offers. Then, he had proceeded to drop the bomb on Hiroshima. The Japanese administration were in a state of panic and confusion - it seemed to them like truman, given his indicated unwillingness to even LISTEN to their offers of surrender, and his subsequent dropping of the bomb... it seemed to the japanese administration that he was not interested in a surrender, and instead wanted to totally destroy and nuke japan.

Then they would have even more so thought that after the second nuking. But guess what they did. They surrendered.

We allowed the imperial dynasty to remain only because they agreed to let us reform it. That was not included in what they demanded. And again, we don't give into ANY demands of our attackers, no matter what. We don't see that as an option. Countries that do are the wuss countries that we protect. Don't expect France or Holland to stop the Nazis or the Soviets or the Japanese in their tracks.

first of all, WORD

second, remember making Japan surrender on OUR terms doubled as a deterant. If the world sees that we kick ass and dont go easy on enemies, nobody will ever attack us again (see: the taliban). If you go easy on one enemy, other enemies will expect us to go easy on them as well.

i dont feel like rewarding attackers with their own terms. And we still keep this policy today. The taliban attacked us, and we erased them from the planet (for the most part). That's why i feel there will be no major attacks us for a while.

show our enemies that when you fuck with the US, your whole life changes. This will deter more attacks, saving lives

Basicly, you two once again proven that you countries, or at least Your own mentality is a sick twisted one that only glorfies itself.

Your ignorance makes me laugh.

Good night.

Originally Posted by Neruo

Basicly, you two once again proven that you countries, or at least Your own mentality is a sick twisted one that only glorfies itself.

Your ignorance makes me laugh.

Good night.
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That does not qualify as a counter argument. It is the type of thing people say when they have no substance.

Hominus and I keep stating relevant facts regarding U.S. policy and its necessity. You keep reading into it all this crap about "glorifying" our country. Even if we were just glorifying our country, our points are still points of debate which you cannot counter. You keep seeing all of this glorification for the sake of glorification nonsense because you put our country on such a pedestal. You think we are a huge deal. Your obsession with us makes that obvious. Why not get obsessed with your own country instead? Try concentrating on something like the fact that you have nice windmills and wooden shoes.

WINDMILLS AND WOODEN SHOES!!!!!!!! HHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAA.

good god i laughed my ass off

the truth is you and i make valid arguments that they cannot refute, so they attack us personally. It is they only way for them to "get back" at us.

Neuro, so what if i glorify my country? I do it for several reasons

1. patriotism
2. america is THE GREATEST, most powerful nation in the world
3. we influence the world
4. uh.............we kick ass?

for that, i am proud

if you do not glorify your own country then you need to move or something. Hey, what the hell, come to America!!!!!!






...............no. scratch that.

Considering that this thread was created by Hominus, poll attached, for the implicit purpose of proving to himself that he was right, and that myself, and a number of other members who were arguing against him on another thread, were wrong... I find it somewhat amusing that, from the poll results, the majority of people, despite the biased "poll-starting" first post, actually AGREE with me, and others opposed to Hominus, over this issue.

this poll does not determine the actual truth.

Here are the 2 main points

1. The bombs prevented an invasion, which would have cost more lives than the bombs did. BY FAR

2. Japan was not about to surrender. If they were, they would have done so after the first bomb. Instead they waited until Nagasaki. IN FACT, they waited a couple MORE days after Nagasaki. That just proves my point even further.

Who gives a shit what these random articles on wikipedia say? The evidence proves my point. They didnt give up before the bomb, or after the first bomb, PROVING that they were not about to surrender.

To say otherwise is to say that up is down and north is south. It just doesnt make sense. Your "proof" has no logical or factual "proof". Just what some jackass on wikipedia said.


I find it amazing that nobody has answered my question yet. As frustrated as i am, i will say it again.

If Japan was about to surrender, then why didnt they do so after the first bomb? They had 3 DAYS, which was PLENTY of time to relay the surrender to America, so dont pull that bullshit about Japan not having enough time. Would somebody PLEASE answer that question DIRECTLY? No bullshit. No beating around the bush. Just tell me why. Thats all.






.....i predict no one will answer with a reasonable response.

by the way, you "won" by a land slide victory of 3 FUCKING VOTES. Dont flatter yourself.

Originally Posted by Hominus

If Japan was about to surrender, then why didnt they do so after the first bomb? They had 3 DAYS, which was PLENTY of time to relay the surrender to America, so dont pull that bullshit about Japan not having enough time. Would somebody PLEASE answer that question DIRECTLY? No bullshit. No beating around the bush. Just tell me why. Thats all.
.....i predict no one will answer with a reasonable response.
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I already DID answer your question. Check back a few posts.

The Japanese were about to surrender. Give me one proof that they weren't.

What we must understand is that it hasn't been determine nor was it ever clear that an unconditional Japanese surrender was impossible, especially if Russia had entered the war before the bombing. Because Russia officially declared war on Japan on August 8, two days after the destruction of Hiroshima. Turman was afraid that the Soviet's attempt to dominate the postwar Asian order as it had the Eastern European, So Truman basically ordered the bombing to force Japan's surrender before Russia had the chance to enter the fray (and thus earn the right to affect the peace settlement).


Even though most of the survivors, are long gone. The effects, though—the lingering scourge of radiation, the memory of the ghastly civilian casualties, the psychological impact of distruction on that type of level will never be forgotten for generations to come.

I want you all to fest your eyes on the below Statement. Regardless if the bombings saved lives or not the destruction and effects are incomparable to any other form of desctruction in human history including 9/11.

Instantaneous, Indiscriminate Slaughter of the Atomic Bombing
During the Deposition to the ICJ

At 8:15 a.m. on August 6, 1945, the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima exploded 580 meters above the heart of the city.
The bomb used a single kilogram of uranium 235 to produce energy equivalent to 15 kilotons of TNT. A B29, the world's largest bomber in 1945, carried a maximum payload of five tons of TNT in conventional weapons. Thus, the atomic bomb was the equivalent of subjecting Hiroshima to an instantaneous attack by more than 3,000 B29s. An intense flash of light and blast flooded the city center. With the roar that followed, enormous pillars of flame burst toward the skies; a majority of buildings crumbled and many people died or were injured.

The unique characteristic of the atomic bombing was that the enormous destruction was instantaneous and universal. Old, young, male, female, soldier, civilian - the killing was utterly indiscriminate. The entire city was exposed to the compound and devastating effects of thermal rays, shock wave and blast, and radiation.

I will describe first the damage caused by the thermal rays. At the epicenter, the Hiroshima bomb generated heat that reached several million degrees centigrade. The fireball was about 280 meters in diameter; the thermal rays emanating from it are thought to have instantly charred any human being outdoors near the hypocenter. In some documented cases, clothing burst into flames at a distance of two kilometers from the hypocenter. Many fires ignited simultaneously throughout the city. The entire city was reduced to charcoal and ashes.

The shock wave and blast also caused great damage. At the epicenter, the fireball generated a state of super-pressure reaching several hundred thousand atmospheres and an enormously powerful shock wave. This shock wave struck directly, but inflicted even greater damage when it ricocheted off the ground and buildings.
Following the initial shock wave was an extremely powerful blast wind estimated at 440 meters per second (nearly 1,000 mph) at the hypocenter. People were lifted and carried through the air by this blast. All wooden buildings within a radius of about two kilometers collapsed; many well beyond that distance were damaged badly.

The blast and thermal rays combined to totally burn or collapse approximately 70 percent of the 76,327 dwellings in Hiroshima at the time. The rest were partially destroyed, half-burnt or damaged. To say that the entire city was instantly devastated is no exaggeration.

There was also radiation damage. Immediately after the explosion the area was bathed in high levels of initial radiation, that is, gamma and neutron rays. Within a radius of about one kilometer of the hypocenter, nearly everyone who suffered full body exposure to four gray of radiation or more died.
Those who managed to survive initially soon succumbed to the late effects of radiation (also called aftereffects). Even today, thousands of people struggle daily with the curse of illness caused by that radiation. Many not directly exposed to the bomb approached the hypocenter to offer help, and many of those sickened or died due to residual radiation.

On that day, there were approximately 350,000 people in Hiroshima. The city government presently estimates that some 140,000 had died by the end of December 1945. However, in many cases entire families were wiped out.
The local community was in disarray. Records were lost to fire. Nor was any thorough survey done at the time. Thus, even today we have no truly accurate casualty figures.
Among the dead were many Koreans, Chinese, students from throughout Asia, and even a few American prisoners of war.

Takashi Hiraoka, Mayor of Hiroshima

See atomic bombs don't save lives. They do the opposite, if you haven't noticed yet.

did i ever say it was a nice thing to do?

want proof they were not about to surrender?

They didnt after the first bomb. Thats proof enough. All they had to do was get on a radio ONE TIME. They didnt.

But really, who gives a shit what japan was THINKING? We could not READ THEIR THOUGHTS, so it appeared to us that they were still willing to fight. So we took action. It was the Japanese's inability to voice a decision that brought the bomb onto them, not America's lust for power.

To america, it looked as if the Japanese still wanted to fight because they didnt say anything to us. We wanted the war over as fast as possible, so we made it so. WE COULD NOT READ THEIR MINDS.

Still, after all the times i have asked it, nobody has answered the question at hand. NOBODY. Not even you the blue meanie. Tell me DIRECTLY why they didnt give up after the first bomb. No bullshit. Just tell me why.

Originally Posted by Hominus

did i ever say it was a nice thing to do?[/b]

No but if my memory serves me right you created a poll asking "Did the bombs in Heroshima and Nagasaki save lives?" Unless I'm in the wrong Thread. **access cool jump to page feature and opens page 1*** Makes visual confirmation** Yup I'm in the right place.

Originally Posted by Hominus

want proof they were not about to surrender?[/b]

Just gave you proof up there. What! You just look at that cool ass signature and disregard everything else?

Originally Posted by Hominus

They didn’t after the first bomb. That’s proof enough. All they had to do was get on a radio ONE TIME. They didn’t.[/b]

It's impossible to determine whether or not the Japanese was going to surrender but based off the events at play during the first bombings it's pretty clear that Truman wasn't going to wait and see if they were going to surrender that's why is undetermined Truman was trying to expedite a force surrender not because the Japanese didn't seem like they wanted to surrender. As a Matter of fact this tragedy in regards to the bombings was way bigger than Japan this was to show number 1. That the U.S was a force to be reckoned with so we were basically trying to prove a point and number 2. was to put up a deterrent from Soviet forces trying to dominate the Post Asian War. So perhaps the Japanese were going to surrender but Truman didn't give a shit either way.

Originally Posted by Hominus

Still, after all the times i have asked it, nobody has answered the question at hand. NOBODY. Not even you the blue meanie. Tell me DIRECTLY why they didn’t give up after the first bomb. No bullshit. Just tell me why.
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Answered.

Tell me this Hominus, say America had no nukes, yet an important city... oh let's say LA was destroyed by an Iranian nuclear bomb (we're in the realm of fantasy here, so not saying "but it would never happen!!! D, do you think that the USA would just fall on its knees and give the attacking country that did it exactly what they want?

Be honest now.