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    Thread: The Holocaust

    1. #1
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      (I know this is a massive read, but I think it will be worthwhile. We've all heard reasons for why the Holocaust happened, in other words, how humans can be driven to such atrocities. This experiment may reflect a large part of why this has happened.)

      Born in New York City in 1933, Stanley Milgram was educated at Queens College and then received his Ph.D. from Harvard. As a social psychologist, he did research at Yale University where, from 1960 to 1963, he performed one of the most shocked and important experiments ever made on human behavior. His own account of it is reprinted here. His experiments revealed the extent to which ordinary people like you are ready to torture and kill other innocent people simply out of obedience to authority.[/b]
      Here is the experiment laid out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

      The results were very interesting!

      ***

      1. If someone in authority asked you to hurt and perhaps even kill an innocent human being, would you obey? If you are like most people, you probably think you wouldn’t. But if you are like most people, you probably would. Why?

      Whenever we are told by authority to do something to another person, we feel as though the moral consequences of obeying lie in the hands of the commander, not in the one who obeys. Once we have relinquished the weight of morality and accept that obedience is a virtue, we can be driven to commit atrocities.

      2. Milgram is concerned with “the extreme willingness of adults to go to almost any lengths on the command of an authority.” What is his evidence? How do you account for this behavior?

      In Milgram’s experiment, it is disturbing that most people continued to the highest shock level instead of stopping. Even when the victims of the shocks screamed and protested, the “subjects” went on to the last shock level of 450 volts. As I said above, we accept that the authority bears responsibility and the one obeying is just doing what he is told.

      3. What are the “binding factors” that make people obedient?

      Even when the subject is an agent of a destructive process, he or she will continue to administer the shocks. The subject may feel an obligation to the experimenter telling them what to do, so withdrawal from their promise may feel awkward. The subject may also feel the need to retain his relationship with the superior authority. This probably happens often when acting against individuals who are perceived to be “lower” in social status, especially when being told by someone credible or “high up”. Another mechanism is the subject getting so absorbed in the task at hand that they disregard moral conflict. Subjects become immersed and want to put on a good performance without considering the consequences of their actions.

      4. What does Milgram mean by “counteranthropomorphic”?

      Counteranthropomorphism is the tendency to of someone to attribute human qualities to inanimate objects. The experimenter may coerce the subject to go on and the subject will think, “The Experiment must continue.” The victim being shocked is now seen only as a concomitant of the experiment, and if the experiment continues, the victim must continue to be as well.

      5. What does Milgram say is the most fundamental lesson of his study?

      Ordinary citizens with no prior hostility on their part become part of a degenerative process by being told by authority. Even when the destruction is overt, few people have the capacity to override the commands of authority.

      6. Does Milgram think that the problem of obedience is just psychological? What else does he think is involved?


      Milgram thinks the problems also lies in the structure of society. During WWII, even Eichmann was sickened when he saw the concentration camps. All he had to do to commit mass murder was to shuffle papers. The person who actually filled the gas chamber probably felt he was just doing his duties and moral responsibility belonged to whoever was giving him orders. We can see that this break in command can have everyone point their fingers at authority (who do as well) so that horrendous acts of immorality can be committed without being impeded by anyone within.

      7. What light do you think Milgram’s work sheds on the psychological forces at work behind the Nazi Holocaust? The slaughter of Native Americans? War in general?

      The military is based on the chain of command. As we have seen, whenever labor is divided among individuals to achieve some goal, the inexplicitness of moral consequence grows with increasing complexity along with breaks in the chain of command. During the Holocaust, devaluation prior to action against the Jews led people to accept the pogrom even more. This combined with humans’ natural obedience to authority under one man’s idea made the situation almost inevitable.

      8. An American soldier tells why he and his buddies massacred Vietnamese men, women, and children at My Lai: “Because I felt like I was ordered to do it, and…at the time I felt like I was doing the right thing…. They were begging and saying, ‘No, no.’…the mothers…hugging their children…we kept on firing….” (New York Times, November 25, 1969.) How does whose side you’re on affect how you feel and react?

      The American soldiers said they were doing what they were told [by authority], and at the time, it seemed like the right thing to do. If you’re [in a war] on the side that is more dominant than the opposing side, it is probably easier to carry out your authority’s wishes than the walk away which requires willpower. In Milgram’s experiment, all the subjects had to do to obey their authority was to push a button. At the time, the subjects may have felt it was better to simply obey which required less effort than resisting.

      9. If obedience to authority is the problem, what do you suppose is the solution? Without obedience wouldn’t there be chaos, anarchy? How do you know when to obey?

      Aristotle said we should disobey authority if there is a conflict with our morality and conscience. Anarchy is not a good alternative, so we must use our will to disobey, whether the problem is intractable or not.

    2. #2
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      You can see this stuff happening all around you even today in the US.

    3. #3
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      Indeed.

      I want to comment that it's unfair to blame religions for all the things that have happened. As we have seen in this experiment, it takes few people to influence thousands with breaks in the command chain.

    4. #4
      Hatin' on whole wheat ilovefrootloopz's Avatar
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      I'm Jewish and 98% of my European family is dead because of it.

      But I still like German's. I have a bunch of German friends too.
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    5. #5
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      Quote Originally Posted by Alric View Post
      You can see this stuff happening all around you even today in the US.
      [/b]
      lol yeah quite true.

      -

      Anyhow I read about that article too. It's totally true that people can be made to do just about any inhumane thing, as long as the circumstances are right.

      Did you people allso hear about this test where 10 college students were guards and 10 college students were prisoners of this prison they build in the basement of the university. They were closed of from the outside world for like a month. At the end the guard-students were totally harassing and just about torturing the prisoner-students. Even if they were friends (before).

      Allso really shows that
      a) Power corrups all.
      b) everyone can do inhumane things under the right circumstances (like power, or listening to a person they value in a way (like the president))
      “What a peculiar privilege has this little agitation of the brain which we call 'thought'” -Hume

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      You replace jews with muslims and there you go. I am sure everyone has seen an otherwise rational person who have said we need to kill muslims because their bad.

    7. #7
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      Quote Originally Posted by Alric View Post
      You replace jews with muslims and there you go. I am sure everyone has seen an otherwise rational person who have said we need to kill muslims because their bad.
      [/b]
      Yup.

      I really don't think it's too much of a stretch of the imagination to say that the holocaust, given the right political and international conditions, could happen all over again - whether perpetrated by America or another country, against Muslims, or some other ethnic/religious/cultural group. People are sheep... most of them, anyway. To me, the holocaust is very easy to comprehend, and it is quite easy to understand why and how otherwise ordinary people did what they did. Following orders, all of that crap.

      I like to think, however, that I would be one of the minority of people who WOULDN'T fall blindly under the chain of command, and commit the atrocities. In fact, I'm quite sure I wouldn't. I have a quite pronounced disregard for authority... dates right back to my pre-school years. The teachers asked us to make paintings (fingerpaint) of ourselves, like, a self-poirtrait. I refused, and sat in the corner and drew a (crude) picture of a red fox instead. The teachers tried EVERYTHING to get me to do a self-portrait, but man, was I ever a stubnborn, disobedient little shit.

      So... yes. I think I would be one of the disobedient minority, who wouldn't go along with the holocaust system. Disobedient, rebellious minority... like in the matrix.

    8. #8
      SKA
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      Quote Originally Posted by megabenman View Post
      I'm Jewish and 98% of my European family is dead because of it.

      But I still like German's. I have a bunch of German friends too.
      [/b]
      I'm about as jewish as you are. and because of it my grandmother's entire family got wiped out. Cousins, uncles, aunts, even her Father was arrested for being jewish, imprisoned, deported away to Deathcamp Auswitz and killed. She only had her Brother, mother and one cousin left after the war. And people still are so ignorant to denie the holocaust. I've been to the holocaust Museum in Jerusalem, Yad VaShem, and when you see the stone slab with all the names of those who were killed for their jewish background....Just by the SIZE of the monument with all those names you start feeling reeeeaaly uneasy. All those people, all gone, all murdered.

      I do believe that it indeed IS possible to propagate, indoctrinate and enslave people's minds to be SO obediant that they'll do basically ANYTHING if the command is given by authorities.
      Luminous Spacious Dream Masters That Holographically Communicate
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      not to overestimate the Value of our Concrete Knowledge;"Common sense"/Rationality,
      for doing so would make us Blind for the unimaginable, unparalleled Capacity of and Wisdom contained within our Felt Knowledge;Subconscious Intuition.

    9. #9
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      <------ that man right there was a very man

    10. #10
      Hatin' on whole wheat ilovefrootloopz's Avatar
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      Lol Casualtie I love your avatar. Got milch lol..

      @SKA

      Yeah I know what you mean. I&#39;ve been to the memorials in Israel a bunch of times. Half of my family (my Mom&#39;s side) lives in Israel, so I&#39;ve been to Israel 5 times in the 14 times I&#39;ve been alive, around 3 times in the past few years. I&#39;ve even had my Bar Mitzvah there, in August last year.
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    11. #11
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      I like to think I&#39;d be one of those people who wouldn&#39;t hurt/kill anyone because I&#39;m EXTREMELY non-violent and I tend to question authority (I don&#39;t just disobey authority figures right and left, I mean to say that I question any orders I get, at least mentally.)

      I guess you never know, though.

      Quote Originally Posted by megabenman View Post
      Lol Casualtie I love your avatar. Got milch lol..
      [/b]
      I kept seeing that avatar and I didn&#39;t even get it until, like, the fifth time I saw it &#39;cause I kept reading the "ch" as I would in "chair."

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