Thread: Memorial day observed - Do you approve?

Is that a joke? Iran has absolutely no power at all to do that. There is no way in hell they could take over the world. I really don't want to insult anyone, but anyone who believes Iran is in a position to take over the world, with or without a nuke, is a moron.

Besides I wasn't talking about Iran anyway. I was talking about Iraq, which believe or not is even less of a threat than Iran.

Seriously they are not even a threat to mexico. How on earth can they possibly take our freedom?

You know....

....it's going on year 7, after 9/11....

...I've been listening to the news...the talk of the "attack on our Freedom" and have retained a slight bit of skepticism to the official story of why (assuming there isn't a deeper conspiracy) we were attacked.
It was only now, after becoming intrigued with this conversation between Alric and O-naught, that I actually decided to do some digging.

I was on Wikipedia for about 2 hours last night. (And I really don't want to hear anything about "sometimes Wikipedia is wrong," from anybody. References are listed so, if the info is wrong, explain why) I started with the entry for "Al Qaeda" and went through nearly all of their highlighted keywords, cross-referencing dates such as how the current war's origin can be traced back to the Iraq-Kuwait war and how Bin Laden's movement began as nonmilitary (mostly economic) actions against Iraq and other areas. It was not until the US decided to get involved in that war, because of Kuwait being an U.S. "interest" and sending "infidel" soldiers to the holy lands of Mecca and Medina that Bin Laden and sympathetic factions decided to take up arms against us.

Going through the web of a timeline (It's really all much more than I can put down, right now, being that its 6:30am, and I have to get ready for work) I'm still a little floored that there is absolutely nothing....absolutely nothing within that text that states this current conflict has anything to do with the hatred of our "freedom."

.....This is the culmination of a conflict that's been going on for decades. Bin Laden's (according to what I've read...I hope someone decides to do the same and double-check my understanding) desire to end the Westerner's occupation of that land by U.S. forces and he taughts the killing of Muslim civilians during earlier conflicts as the prime reason for retaliation against U.S. civilians.

None of this....None of this, has been told to us by our government or media (that I've heard) in the last 7 years, "opposition to our freedom" being the main reasoning given behind the attack.

Seriously...I'm pretty much bowled over by the blatant misdirection and propaganda I've just realized we are being subjected to....

Let me just clarify that the attack on freedom isn't a direct "I hate freedom" movement. What I mean is that they strongly, very strongly, oppose the freedom to be "not-Muslim". From their standpoint it's a religious war; the so-called 'Jihad' distorted from it's true sense of 'personal' Jihad.

Their goals are totally irrelevant. They can dislike us or our freedoms as much as they like, to be an actual threat to us they need a realistic way of taking them, which they do not have. The fact is they have so many of their own problems if we just totally left the area, they would be to busy in their own world to even think about us.

Just look at a map. Count how many counties are around them, look at where they are position. Now look at the US. Do you really think they care at all what we do way over here? Well maybe a little but thats because we keep provoking everyone. Really none of the stuff happening over there is any of our business.

Originally Posted by Alric

Just look at a map.

Just look at the terrorist movement, which is being bred by them.

Do you really think they care at all what we do way over here? Well maybe a little but thats because we keep provoking everyone. Really none of the stuff happening over there is any of our business.

Again, look at the terrorist movement, which is bred by them. Now, look at the fact that their terrorists attacks have occurred in countries all over the world - in their region and elsewhere. What has China done to provoke them? What has England done to provoke them? What has...

Now, look at what Mahmoud Ahmedenijad tells - not the rest of the world but - his own people to get them riled up and to stoke the fires of hatred. Look at the targets of their terrorist attacks, which are bred by them. Who are the victims? Average, innocent citizens. Now tell me that their motives are that of peace, rainbows and cotton candy.

Originally Posted by Howie

You are implying that things done indirectly not for you do not have an impact on you. If you believe that then I understand the ignorance form which your statement came.

I do realise indirect things do have an impact on me, but because the soldiers in WW2 did not do it for me in partipicular - and could not have done so, since I wasn't born - I see no need to be grateful about it.

If a group of soldiers came to my house and rescued me from some other soldiers trying to kill me, then I would be grateful because they directly helped me. But I see no point being grateful about something someone else did not do for oneself in the first place.

Yea because we are messing around in their countries. And even then terrorists attacks are very rare against us. If we just left them alone, there would be none.

See your so caught up in the hate mongering that you fail to see that its really not our problem. If we didn't sit aircraft carries miles off their coast, and we didn't fly planes around their borders, they wouldn't care about us at all. Not even remotely. The fact is they would probably threaten their neighbors or perhapes isreal, which could kick their butts anyway. So really there is no issue except for the one our country is trying to make.

Now if you wanted to say, we should protect the other counties in the area, or they we have a duty to keep the peace. That is fine. You have the right to that opinion. Of course that has nothing to do with our freedom, and its wrong to act like it does.

Originally Posted by Alric

Yea because we are messing around in their countries. And even then terrorists attacks are very rare against us. If we just left them alone, there would be none.

I wish I could join your bask in blissful ignorance but, I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to disagree in this issue.

See your so caught up in the hate mongering that you fail to see that its really not our problem.

You're wrong about me. But that's OK. If you want to call me hateful then I'm done with you. You're welcome to talk to me anytime but, on this issue, I resign. Good day to you.

Good because I havn't seen you once even attempt to explain how any of this has to do with freedom. All I see is you saying you think the group is scum. Heck I would probably agree with that, except we are not the trashmen of the world. Let them clean up their own mess.

Originally Posted by Alric

Good because I havn't seen you once even attempt to explain how any of this has to do with freedom.

As I said, I'm not getting into it. It's very involved and I've been through it all too many times already. It can't be explained in only a few paragraphs. And, by the way, yes I did give clues to how it fits in. I'm not going over it again.

All I see is you saying you think the group is scum.

I really wish you'd quit putting words into my mouth.

What do you mean you gave clues? Are you so uncertian in your postion that you can't debate it openly? I don't have time to play games with people who can't just say what they mean.

Originally Posted by Alric

What do you mean you gave clues? Are you so uncertian in your postion that you can't debate it openly? I don't have time to play games with people who can't just say what they mean.

May I present exhibit A?

Exhibit A

Bailiff, exhibit B, please:

Exhibit B

We're ready for the next exhibit, please:

Exhibit c

Any more motions? Good. The court requests that the prosecution more thoroughly familiarize itself with the case and closely examine the evidence.

Court adjourned

Um how does reposting the same thing advance your arguement in anyway at all? I mean, if they had nothing to do with it the first time, why would they now?

Originally Posted by Alric

Is that a joke? Iran has absolutely no power at all to do that. There is no way in hell they could take over the world. I really don't want to insult anyone, but anyone who believes Iran is in a position to take over the world, with or without a nuke, is a moron.

Besides I wasn't talking about Iran anyway. I was talking about Iraq, which believe or not is even less of a threat than Iran.

Seriously they are not even a threat to mexico. How on earth can they possibly take our freedom?

Iran will never have the power to wipe out the entire "infidel" world, but the stance Ahmadenijad expresses is indicative that if he ever does get nukes, which he is trying to do, he will use them for terrorist purposes. That is a very big deal.

As for Iraq, I don't think Hussein could have single handedly turned the United States into a totalitarian state. However, five governments, our CIA, our Senate (Democrates included), and our Bill Clinton Administration all reported that the Hussein regime, which has in fact used WMD's for terrorist purposes and were in fact developing WMD's in the years before the current war, had stockpiles of WMD's. We were his biggest enemy. That was very sufficient cause for alarm. That is why I think the attack on the regime, which was not preemptive and was instead a continuation of Gulf War I because the Hussein regime violated the contingent ceasefire, was justified. I say he could not have single handedly taken away our freedom because we would have never let it happen. However, if we were completely passive, he would have walked right in and taken our freedom. What would have stopped him otherwise? Therefore, our military and its willingness to fight are what protect our freedom from dictators like Saddam Hussein.

If we all roasted marshmallows and refused to fight, we would not be free. Also, if we allowed all of our enemy dictators to do as they please, they would have nukes. If all of them had lots and lots of nukes and used them to make it rain nukes here, we would be completely over as a country. We would lose our freedom. So standing up to dictators who threaten us does protect our freedom. Anybody who feels safe that we are not going to lose our freedom feels that way because of trust in our military to not let such a thing happen.

Originally Posted by Alric

Really none of the stuff happening over there is any of our business.

I totally disagree. I think mass oppression of the innocent anywhere in the world is the whole rest of the world's business. Genocide is the whole world's business, and totalitarianism is the whole world's business, just like famine and disease.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

This is the culmination of a conflict that's been going on for decades. Bin Laden's (according to what I've read...I hope someone decides to do the same and double-check my understanding) desire to end the Westerner's occupation of that land by U.S. forces and he taughts the killing of Muslim civilians during earlier conflicts as the prime reason for retaliation against U.S. civilians.

None of this....None of this, has been told to us by our government or media (that I've heard) in the last 7 years, "opposition to our freedom" being the main reasoning given behind the attack.

Seriously...I'm pretty much bowled over by the blatant misdirection and propaganda I've just realized we are being subjected to....

This is Bin Laden's letter to the United States. You can find a great deal in it about how he detests our freedom.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/print...110490,00.html

He brings up two questions Americans were asking about what his problem is. The first question is of why they are fighting and opposing us. The second question is about what they want from us. In regard to "Q1", he talks about our occupation of the Middle East and our attacks on Muslim groups and lands. In regard to "Q2", he says more of that but also goes into great detail about our supposed immorality and how our government allows it. Specifically, he mentions homosexuality and fornication. He even speaks against us for not punishing Bill Clinton for his sexual encounters with Monica Lewinsky. He says he hates our way of life and our government's allowance of it and demands that we accept Islam and live by the Koran. What he does not tell us is that he doesn't care how we live as long as we stay out of the Middle East. That is not his position.

However, it does seem a bit ambiguous. He gives a reason for why they started fighting us, and it is completely about how we have attacked and occupied the Middle East. It gets confusing when you look at the second question. He says what he wants from us. Ending our allowance of supposed immorality is part of it. So does that mean they will stop wanting to attack us if we leave the Middle East? I don't think so. If that were the case, why would he add the part about what they want from us? Why would we give a damn about that if they stopped fighting us? It seems he is saying that our military activity in the Middle East is what got us into conflict with them, but that it will not end until we go all the way with what they want. That is how most wars work. For example, the United States went to war with Japan because of Pearl Harbor, but our ceasing of conflict involved demands concerning the way they run their government. That is one example of a great many. So even though our military activity in the Middle East is apparently what got them (Bin Laden, Al Qaeda) fighting us in the first place, they now demand more from us than for us to leave the Middle East. They demand that we end our freedom and live by the Koran in addition.

Them like any of country in the world, including the US, likes to talk big but they rarely back it up. Realistically all that stuff you listed is more of a threat to our allies in the area than to our actual freedoms.

I am all for helping out the people in the area except there are two very important things which need to be factored in. One we have our own problems here in the US. Really we shouldn't be sending troops over seas if we cant even defend our own borders. And two, we simply do not have the money.

We should secure our own freedoms over here before trying to help people over there.

Originally Posted by Alric

Them like any of country in the world, including the US, likes to talk big but they rarely back it up. Realistically all that stuff you listed is more of a threat to our allies in the area than to our actual freedoms.

I am all for helping out the people in the area except there are two very important things which need to be factored in. One we have our own problems here in the US. Really we shouldn't be sending troops over seas if we cant even defend our own borders. And two, we simply do not have the money.

We should secure our own freedoms over here before trying to help people over there.

I see your point, but I think we need to work on all of those things at the same time. I would like to see Iraq get off the ground as a free country, but I would also like to see the end of our war on drugs and other instances of increased freedom here.

Hussein probably was more of a threat to his neighbors than he was to us, but he was still a threat.

I am a capitalist at heart. I would have rather screwed over Iraq using our influance on trade, instead of using bombs. Because quite frankly, it saves us a ton of money, it saves a ton of lives, and it doesn't make nearly as many people mad.

Originally Posted by Oneironaught

I don't know what "undisclosed location" you reside in but if you can't appreciate that fighting for freedom is done for the advantage of the entire "free world" then you really should reconsider what you have in life. Whether you're American or not, freedom is where it's at. You'd be pretty f'd if it weren't for those who valued freedom enough to fight for it. I don't care who you are or where you live, freedom fighters do what they do for EVERYONE and we are ALL in their debt.

The preceding message is to everyone here, not you in particular.

.
By stating what I did, was stating a fact. Because it is not A good one, it is easy to assume I am at one point or another. If you would have read the entire post, you would see that my respect for my freedoms and our troops is paramount.

I feel so many members should practice engaging in an entire discussion. Instead of reading ten posts and replying to all of them, read one! Read it well.

Universal Mind, thank you. I've explained it ad nauseum elsewhere and really don't care to get wrapped up in it here. You provided a good summation of where I'm coming from.

Originally Posted by Alric

We should secure our own freedoms over here before trying to help people over there.

Which is exactly the intended outcome.

Originally Posted by Howie

.
By stating what I did, was stating a fact. Because it is not A good one, it is easy to assume I am at one point or another. If you would have read the entire post, you would see that my respect for my freedoms and our troops is paramount.

I feel so many members should practice engaging in an entire discussion. Instead of reading ten posts and replying to all of them, read one! Read it well.

Howie, I actually did understand your position. I didn't mean to make it sound as though I thought you "don't appreciate" the situation. When I pointed out that:

Originally Posted by me

The preceding message is to everyone here, not you in particular.

...I was trying to say that I was using your points as a spring-board for my own rant and points. I wasn't necessarily responding directly to your statements. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression.

Originally Posted by Oneironaught

Howie, I actually did understand your position. I didn't mean to make it sound as though I thought you "don't appreciate" the situation. When I pointed out that:

...I was trying to say that I was using your points as a spring-board for my own rant and points. I wasn't necessarily responding directly to your statements. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression.

No problem. I thought I was being singled out becasue of the "undisclosed location" statement.
In either case, I like your point. I am gald you got it out.

Originally Posted by Howie

No problem. I thought I was being singled out becasue of the "undisclosed location" statement.
In either case, I like your point. I am gald you got it out.

No, no, no, absolutely not. I only commented on that to illustrate that I was unsure if my comments even applied to you.

I'll admit, I'm definitely not the most diplomatic speaker and I sometimes come off as more harsh and forceful than I intend to. Anyway, peace

Originally Posted by Alric

I am a capitalist at heart. I would have rather screwed over Iraq using our influance on trade, instead of using bombs. Because quite frankly, it saves us a ton of money, it saves a ton of lives, and it doesn't make nearly as many people mad.

We didn't want to screw over Iraq. We wanted to make Iraq better, and hopefully the results of that will show more and more as history unfolds. It was the leadership we wanted to take down.

Originally Posted by Oneironaught

Universal Mind, thank you. I've explained it ad nauseum elsewhere and really don't care to get wrapped up in it here. You provided a good summation of where I'm coming from.

Thanks. I'm glad you're here to help me argue this stuff. It's very rare that I find people on this site who agree with my foreign policy beliefs. For a while, I was a total solo artist at arguing this stuff here, and I had a whole storm of opposition. There seems to be a high correlation between lucid dreaming fascination and disagreement with American foreign policy. It would be interesting to understand why.

Its all about fear. Fear of what you don't know, fear of what might happen, and trying to control everything to prevent fear. Someone might set off a bomb in your house, someone might set off a chemical weapon, people might start firing nukes all around the world. The fact of the matter is your infinitely more likely to die in a car crash or from a heart attack than from a terrorist attack. You think your in control when your driving though, you think you can't have a heart attack because your not in "that bad of shape", and so you don't worry about that.

So you go along with the wars. Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, lets invade. Iran wants a nuke, we have to bring the fight to them. North Korea has missiles they must be stopped! One war after another, in an endless cycle of fear we have to destroy every possible enemy untill we bankrupt our country, sell off our military and left totally defenseless.

Am I wrong? Everyday there seems to be more enemies showing up, more threats. People don't feel safer. The media and the government hype up the danager of the unknown, only making people fear it even more. All the while the government uses that to their advantage, the terrorists are already here. We need to spy on our citizens, we need to know their every move.

More people die in the world each year from cancer than from terrorists attacks. A ligitment threat or not its only a minor threat. You need to accept that not everything can be controlled. Fighting the wars like we are, hurt us far more than they protect us. Its just not worth it. More americans died in the Iraq than in 9/11. 40 times more people were injured in iraq than died during 9/11. 40 times! And for what? The short lived illusion that we are protected. Of course we know it didn't do anything, the real threat is Iran. Of course after we invade Iran we will find the real threat is someone else. And each time there will be a new target. Because there is no real threat, its just fear, and as long as we are killing people in another country we can pretend like we are doing something.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Thanks. I'm glad you're here to help me argue this stuff. It's very rare that I find people on this site who agree with my foreign policy beliefs. For a while, I was a total solo artist at arguing this stuff here, and I had a whole storm of opposition. There seems to be a high correlation between lucid dreaming fascination and disagreement with American foreign policy. It would be interesting to understand why.

Know that I feel you, man. But also know that I intend to stay out of this kind of discussion here in the future. I was in your very same position at another site (which I officially completely resigned from today, as a matter of fact) and I don't want to get into here as well. Politics - as we all know - is one of those things that can tear friends apart. I consider each and every member of Dreamviews my friend and I'm not willing to compromise that over arguments regarding religion, politics or immigration, as those are three subjects I have very solid, strong opinions on. I don't base my opinions on whims. I've been actively observing this stuff for a very long time and I know exactly where I stand on each, and why.

Yes, I am on your side and I think that it's very important for people to understand that there is far more to the issue than is apparent on the surface. But, for me, this is not the place. As you can see, I've already got people calling me a hate-monger over this crap. It ends here and now.

Originally Posted by Alric

The media and the government hype up the danager of the unknown, only making people fear it even more.

But, I must first point out that the opposite is actually the truth. The media goes out of its way to downplay the danger and to sweep the true face of evil under the rug. That's the Liberal mindset these days. They figure that if we aren't told (through the mainstream media) what's really going on then we'll be more willing to sit passively on the side lines, making no waves. Well, let me tell you. That's the quickest possible way to defeat. We've turned into a nation of crybaby defeatists and I, for one, don't like it one bit. It's absolutely not in our best interest. Nor is it in the best interest of the world community.

I advise everyone here to check out Glenn Beck and LISTEN to what he has to say...