Thread: Boot it out!!!

Originally Posted by Neruo

Haha. You're so simple. Because a small portion of Palestine is FUCKING crazy, that means it is okay to give the entire country unequal rights and such?

Fact of the matter is, a small portion of Palestine people, and a small portion of Israelis, are fucking assholes. Some Palestinian assholes would beat up an innocent Israeli, and some asshole Israeli soldiers don't lose sleep over shooting Palestine children.

Just because both countries have a few Huge assholes in them, shouldn't most the majority of innocent people should suffer. And I am quite sure , and That is what matters.

When an Israeli soldier kills an Israeli Palestinian kid, he is dealt with as a MURDERER. When a terrorist carries out cold blooded, systematical butchery he is praised by Allah and is seen as a hero.

The next comment is completely ridiculous. What makes you so sure that "more innocent people live shit lives in Palestine than innocent people live a shit life in Israel"? Innocent? Yes, I'm glad you realised that they are innocent. But that's not my point.

My point is that the people in Israel are being terrorized and the people in Palestine aren't having suicide bombs dropped on them and Kassam rockets shot onto them. Israel is striving for peace, and unlike Palestine or many of it's orginizations, hah, they aren't continually commiting acts of terrorism against Palestinians. So yes, I think Isreali's are having a pretty shit time. But they are spared one thing: A terrorist govenment that, as Imran so eloquently pointed out in one of his other threads, the Palestinian people have voted for.

Oh, and Neruo, just because a small portion of Israel is FUCKING crazy, that means it is okay to give the entire country unequal rights and inflict mass murder on them every day?

I think Israel should be a democracy where Jews and Muslims are allowed to live together without a government run by a religion. Since there are two Israelis posting in this thread, please tell me to what extent that describes how Israel already is. I have a relative who lives in Israel, and she is the only Israeli I have ever talked to about the situation, so I wanted to get some more perspectives.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I think Israel should be a democracy where Jews and Muslims are allowed to live together without a government run by a religion. Since there are two Israelis posting in this thread, please tell me to what extent that describes how Israel already is. I have a relative who lives in Israel, and she is the only Israeli I have ever talked to about the situation, so I wanted to get some more perspectives.

I will try to answer to the best of my ability.
There are several issues here. One is the issue of the occupation of the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip. These areas are occupied by Israel, and they are not officially part of the State of Israel, and because of that the Palestinians that live there are not Israeli citizens, and do not have many of the rights that Israelis have such as the right to vote to the Israeli parliament. This is a bad thing of course, but Israel has agreed to let the Palestinians have their own independent state in these areas, and when this happen it will solve this inequality.

Now lets talk about the Israeli citizens: the Jew, Muslim, Christians and Druze that live inside the official State of Israel. These people have equal rights, with a few exceptions: Because of the problematic state of security of Israel, most Arab Israelis are excluded from some sensitive jobs, such as the Intelligence Agencies. The Druze Arabs are an exception to this because they are traditionally loyal to the state, and so they are trusted more then the Muslim and Christian Arabs; for example there are high Druze officers in the Israeli army.

Unfortunately in Israel there is no clear devision of state and religion. There are a few Jewish religious laws, though they can be usually worked around; for example, work on Saturday is forbidden, Jews must be married, divorced and buried by the religious authorities, and a few other laws. But like I said this is not a major problem because these laws can be worked around. For example in the secular cities such as Tel-Aviv an Haifa many busynesses are open on Saturday without a problem; the responsibility to enforce this law is left to the municipal authorities, and they simply choose not enforce this law, other wise the mayor will be thrown out on the next municipal elections.
In any case, Israel is a secular democracy except for these issues, which are annoying but quite minor.

Israel is an exceptional country in that it was created a Home of the Jews. That means that all Jews can come and live in it. Any Jew can go to Israel and immediately become a citizen, and even get major support from the government for the first year or so. But what about non-Jew immigrants? The doors for them are closed unless they go through loads of bureaucracy and problems. It is very difficult for non Jew immigrants to get citizenship. Is that right? No, it's pretty fucked up, but you do have to take into consideration the purpose of the state of Israel, to be a haven for the Jews that have been persecuted for 2000 years.

Well, I hope I managed to sum up these complex issues, but I feel this mostly skims the surface - there are hundreds of books and essays written on each one of them.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I think Israel should be a democracy where Jews and Muslims are allowed to live together without a government run by a religion. Since there are two Israelis posting in this thread, please tell me to what extent that describes how Israel already is. I have a relative who lives in Israel, and she is the only Israeli I have ever talked to about the situation, so I wanted to get some more perspectives.

Israel is a democracy. A lot of the time it is described as the only democracy in the Middle East (though some others have made progress), and it has good or in some cases better statistics on free speech, gay rights and womens rights, etc. than America.

Any muslims who wish to live in Israel can do so, and Israeli citizenship is granted to any Muslims or Arabs (with some obvious exemptions that are present everywhere, of course). As a result, a lot of Arabs and Muslims are co-existing peacfully and happily in Israel. It's their choice. That's what I know at least, though Dodo's points about how hard it is is probably correct. They're allowed, at least, though if Dodo is right I think it should become a lot easier for them.

The government in Israel isn't exactly "run by a religion" it is run like any other but it is, yes, a Jewish government because this is a Jewish state, just like Iran is Shi'a Islam state. But as Dodo said, it hardly interferes.

I'm guessing when you said "I think Israel should be a democracy where Jews and Muslims are allowed to live together without a government run by a religion" you meant having a joint Muslim-Jewish government. I believe this was suggested early on when the decision of where to create The State of Israel was being made. A joint Palestinian-Israeli state was suggested, by the Israeli's even though this would seriously detract from the notion of a Jewish state that. Splitting Israel basically in half was also suggested, and this would have left the tiny Israeli half stranded right in the middle of all it's friendly neighbours. Again, not so great. Also rejected, by the Palestinians.

I think that there should be a Jewish state. The jews definitley deserve a state of there own to live in. Just like There are a lot of Muslim states for Muslims. I think that any Palestinian who wants to should live there. But why can't Israel be a Jewish state, which they deserve, and allow anyone to live there (which they do) and Palestine be a Muslim state?

I just think Israel should be allowed as a Jewish state and as a homeland for a race that has been prosecuted for 2000 years. The Jews should have a haven.

Edit: Oh yeah, here you go. Quote from Wikipedia: "The population of Israel today is over seven million, with a large Jewish majority. While Israel is home to both Jews and Arabs, as well as a large number of Christian and other minority groups, it is the world's only Jewish state. Jerusalem is the capital, seat of government, and largest city. Due to its broad array of political rights and civil liberties, Israel is considered the only liberal democracy in the Middle East. Despite Israel's political problems and the vast sums it spends on military defense, Israel is an active competitor in the global market and is considered the most progressive in the region in terms of freedom of the press, business regulations, economic competition, and overall human development."

You should read the article, it's quite good.

Originally Posted by A Humble Sinner

When an Israeli soldier kills an Israeli Palestinian kid, he is dealt with as a MURDERER. When a terrorist carries out cold blooded, systematical butchery he is praised by Allah and is seen as a hero.

That doesn't make one or the other right. Actually, luckily, I have the impression most 'terrorists' (palastine asshats) blow themselves up, so they sort themselves out.

Still, what does it have to do with anything?

The next comment is completely ridiculous. What makes you so sure that "more innocent people live shit lives in Palestine than innocent people live a shit life in Israel"? Innocent? Yes, I'm glad you realised that they are innocent. But that's not my point.

Because just about Every Palestinian lives in the big open-aired prison they call their country. That includes innocents. Most Israelis live a (relatively) far more peaceful, wealthy life. You can't deny life in Palestine is shit-poor, fucked up, way less safe and free than Israel. Israel pushing their will, army and borders on Palestine doesn't help.

As does idiots bombing Israel does make life very bad for some Israelis.

My point is that the people in Israel are being terrorized and the people in Palestine aren't having suicide bombs dropped on them and Kassam rockets shot onto them. Israel is striving for peace, and unlike Palestine or many of it's orginizations, hah, they aren't continually commiting acts of terrorism against Palestinians. So yes, I think Isreali's are having a pretty shit time. But they are spared one thing: A terrorist govenment that, as Imran so eloquently pointed out in one of his other threads, the Palestinian people have voted for.

Yeah. And when Germany felt like they were fucked in the ass in the past, they happily let their saviour, Hitler, 'make things better'. Do I think every German citizen was bad just for getting swept away by nation-wide retardation? No. Nor do I blame every single person in Palestine for voting on some retard that gave them the impressing he would right the wrongs.

There are quite a lot of wrongs in Palestine. I couldn't really think of a worse country to live in, execpt for north-korea perhaps. Hell, I would rather live in America than in Palestine ().

The point is, that bombing back the idiots that fuck up Palestine just makes the shit-poor, intellectually-derived, religiously-brainwashed more prone to get pissed at you more.

As the Far more wealthy and powerful nation, Israel is acting pretty stupid. They should act Way more defensively, and bomb Palestine with food instead of with bombs, because in the end, that will cause less overall bloodshed.

Oh, and Neruo, just because a small portion of Israel is FUCKING crazy, that means it is okay to give the entire country unequal rights and inflict mass murder on them every day?

Did I say that?

All I said was, that I believe no person deverses to be born and to live in a country as fucked up as Palestine. Hell, I could see everyone I know, including myself, to be turned into a terrorists, if they grew up in a fucked out country like Palestine, being brainwashed and having people you know get bombed.

Acting all " 'they' are bombing us, so we bomb 'em back" really seems like fucking up humanity even more, to me.

I think that yes, people in Palestine have a shit life. But the way you said it made me think that you were ignoring the suffering on the other side.

I do not blame people for voting for Hamas, but it is a problem and it is ruining their country. At the moment, Israel can't "bomb them with food" because they are being urged on by Hamas closer and closer to complete Islamofascism and blinding them, making it impossible for any kind of peace (like Half/Dreaming's videos). Before any kind of peace happens they need to put Hamas out of the picture.

The thing is, by now, it seems like the Palestinians want these people. And it seems they agree with Hamas. Which patently means that Palestine, as a state democratically run by terrorists, is the aggressor, and that Israel, as a non-terrorist state that doesn't butcher people in the name of God and is actually trying to make peace, is not the aggressor.

Which also brings us back to the first point in this thread: Kick the Israeli's out of football because they are butchering the Palestinians unconditionally. And that we can see now, is false.

Oh, go ahead and boot us out of football, but let us play socker

Dodobird and A Humble Sinner, thank you for those very thorough explanations. That clears up a whole lot for me. When I left that post yesterday, there was originally a very long paragraphy about my opinion of the conflict, but I decided to delete it and get your take on what Israel is all about before I said anything more. I think I'm ready to say more now.

I have a lot more interest in the situation now than I used to because I can see more clearly how the conflict is affecting the entire world. The long war between Jews and Muslims over the land where Israel is just might be the biggest problem in the world right now, and it is at the root of why so many Islamofascists want to make Americans as well as Israelis extinct because we are Israel's biggest ally. I even have a significant fear that the conflict might be what ends up resulting in a nuclear war that wipes out a huge percentage of the human race. Because of that and because war and terrorism suck period, I want to form a conclusion on what can be done about the situation. I know that it is incredibly complicated, but I think I'm significantly closer to having a strong opinion now.

Now that you have explained the Israeli side, please tell me your understanding of why Muslims, particularly Palestinians, have such a problem with the current situation in Israel. If they are allowed to live there and have pretty much equal rights, which would probably become even closer to equal if not all the way if the terrorism would stop, then what exactly is their deal? Why are they so pissed? Why are so many of them are in favor of suicide bombings against Israelis? I know they want a "Palestinian state" there, but what exactly would be so different about that?

Also, both of you said you think Israel should be a "Jewish state". You talked about how religion does not have that much to do with the way the government is run, but you still said you believe in having a Jewish state. Based on what I know so far, it seems that that idea might be a big part of the problem. Islamofascists suck and are the lowest creatures in the solar system and have no excuses for what they do, but I think there might be some better ways to deal with their irrationality. That very term "Jewish state" is of course going to seem incredibly sacrilegious to them and seem like ultimate blasphemy when you are talking about what they consider their "holy land". They want a "Muslim state", and as long as both sides keep their perspectives, the war will continue. That is why I think Israel should just be a "state" where Jews and Arabs live together equally and where religion has nothing to do with the government. It seems that that is the only solution. But I know that both of you know worlds more about the situation than I do, so please tell me how much sense you think that idea makes.

Very interesting theory about nuclear war, Universal Mind. Its almost biblical, if you know the Armageddon story according to Revelations.

As to your question why the Muslims want that piece of land, hate. I don't believe the land holds any real value to them. They just hate the Jews.

As to your co-existence proposal, I'm not too sure. I mean Shi'as and Sunni Muslims kill eachother, so I'm not too sure Arabs and Jews could live nextdoor to eachother. The conflict between the two has been ongoing for over a millenium and a half. Healing that relationship just doesn't seem plausible.

As to your co-existence proposal, I'm not too sure. I mean Shi'as and Sunni Muslims kill eachother, so I'm not too sure Arabs and Jews could live nextdoor to eachother. The conflict between the two has been ongoing for over a millenium and a half. Healing that relationship just doesn't seem plausible.

Sunni's and Shia's are killing each other in Iraq because there was to much of disproportion amount of power given to the minority group and when thing's shifted there was retrubution.

Much like in Rwanad when the Belgian's left they gave power to the more "elegant" Tutsi's and left the Hutu's in the dust.

We'll the Hutus wheren't happy about that so they did what humans do...................
Now the situation is like that in a way the area of Israel/Palestine.

The Israeli's are a minority surrounded by Arab's who outnumber them greatly.
Now the way things happen there may be a "shift of power" in which the Arabs get the upper hand and then Israel's nuclear weapons come into play. (israel is estimated to be the 5th or 4th largest nuclear power)

And in that case there will be "Nuclear War" and that scenario which i presented could very well happen if history serves me right in the cases of Iraq and Rwanda.

Just because the term "Jewish State" doesn't intrude much on daily life doesn't mean it doesn't matter.

Israel was created as a haven for Jews. So they have a country of their own, which is important. Every race should have homeland, or at least a base. Without it they would be international nomads.

Because it was created for Jews to live in that means you live in the comfort of your religion. You have a culture - your own festivals, the state language is the Jewish language, names, Jewish memorials, generally Jewish funerals wddings and stuff like that, a history, Jewish organizations a flag...all these things stand for so much. It's just the concept of your place, basically. Having a country! Every culture needs a place to call it's own or it's culture stands for nothing and it's people are a lot of eanderers.

It's important for any race to have (even just one!) country to call it's own. It's a place to solidify your beliefs and culture. I'm sorry, I don't really know how to explain the need for a country to you.

I hope you can understand that every race needs a country to live in. That's what Israel is to Jews: a Jewish State. A State, in fact, for Jews. It's not just a word.


The State of Israel. I think you would agree they need it.

Edit: Half/Dreaming is right. I think the Muslims just hate the Jews. Actually, it's fine to hate Jews if you are a Muslim, you know - It brings you closer to god.

Though I think Israel might just, in time manage to have something vaugley resembling peace. It's officially made peace with a lot of it's Arabs neighbours, though sometimes it seems like it doesn't matter at all - They still backstab, cheat and bomb the place...

Originally Posted by A Humble Sinner

Just because the term "Jewish State" doesn't intrude much on daily life doesn't mean it doesn't matter.

Israel was created as a haven for Jews. So they have a country of their own, which is important. Every race should have homeland, or at least a base. Without it they would be international nomads.

Because it was created for Jews to live in that means you live in the comfort of your religion. You have a culture - your own festivals, the state language is the Jewish language, names, Jewish memorials, generally Jewish funerals wddings and stuff like that, a history, Jewish organizations a flag...all these things stand for so much. It's just the concept of your place, basically. Having a country! Every culture needs a place to call it's own or it's culture stands for nothing and it's people are a lot of eanderers.

I see what you are saying, but I don't think it has to evelope the entire country. If the connection you feel to other people of your particular culture is very important to you, I don't see a problem with that alone. But I don't agree that an entire country has to exist for that purpose. You could live in the United States, Canada, Europe, Australia, and lots of other countries and be around people of your culture and have festivals, parties, parades, and whatever you like without having to have an entire country about that. I don't have a religion, but there are definitely subcultures where I feel much more connected and fitted in than others. I don't feel the need to have a country where people like me call it an anything state. I am a major believer in democracies of equality. I think Israel should be one. It can be a place for tons of Jews to live and have cultural celebrations and communities, but I think Muslims should be able to have the same rights and on an equal level.

You and Half/Dreaming are probably right that Islamofascists hate Jews because Islamofascists are so hateful that they need an enemy and need somebody to rival to impress God. That's probably true. But it's probably not the entire reason. What I was asking earlier was what the Palestinian side of the argument is. I think that side of the argument probably does have tons of them pissing fire. All I know is that they want a "Palestinian state". As long as Jews demand a "Jewish state" and Muslims demand a "Palestinian state", the war will continue until humans no longer live on Earth. Neither side will ever EVER go along with what the other side is demanding. It has a 0% chance of ever happening. The only solution is to call the "holy land" a "state" and let everybody live there equally. Until that happens, the nightmare will continue, and it will have a drastically terrible effect on the entire world.

Even if an entire Jewish state is necessary, which I don't believe it is, I really don't think the "holy land" is the place for it. That is guaranteed to stir up tremendous trouble. If you must have a Jewish state, it needs to be anywhere but the spot of land in the world that has been at the root of more killing than any other. That is the last place a religious state should exist. Even just having the government call it a Jewish state is going to have entire armies of terrorists going out for blood, not that they are the least bit justified in handling things that way. They don't have my support on any level whatsoever when they mindlessly target the innocent just to spew hate and supposedly impress God. But there is another major world religion that thinks they are entitled to the land for their state. The land needs to be shared. That is the only solution. I'm not saying the Palestinians would necessarily ever agree to that, but if the Jews would start pushing for it, you would come out clearly looking like the good guys and getting much more support in the world, and it would have a considerable chance of leading to such a state. The stalemate that exists right now and has for many ages is looking more and more like it could result in drastically terrible events on a global scale, and it has to stop.

OK, UM I agree with what you said pretty much. I agree that the key to solving the Islamic terror is peace between Israel and Palestine. I believe that after this peace will be made, the Islamic terrorism will gradually fade away (not right away of course, but gradually over a few decades )

Let me try to explain where the origin of the hatred started.
I will extremely briefly narrate the historical background, because I think it's essential to understand this dispute:
About 2000 years ago the Jews were booted out of the land of Israel by the Romans.

They were persecuted, and by the 19th century they decided they had enough of it, and the European Jews decided to go were they can be masters of their own fate, so they started to come back to this land, that was called by this time Palestine.

Palestine was not empty, parts of it was populated by Palestinian Arabs. The Jews bought land from them and built villages.

During the first quarter of the 20th century the persecution in Europe gotten worse, and lots of Jews started to immigrate to Palestine. Some Palestinian Arabs nationalists felt that the land was being overtaken gradually by the Jews, and started to do some terror attacks. The Jews defended themselves from such attacks with their own militia.

When the Nazis rose, many more Jews escaped to Palestine. There was more aggression by Arabs, fueled by the Arabic nations surrounding Israel, that started to fantasize on taking over after the British leave. ( By that time the value of the land was high, because of the rapid development done by the Jews, and the British )

It was clear by this time that the Jews are determined to built their home in the land, and that the Arab Palestinians and the Arabic nations wouldn't let them do it without full scale war. The UN suggested to divide the land into 2 states, one for the Arab and one for the Jews (The Devision Plan). The Jews agreed even though their area was very small. The Arabs didn't agree to this plan, and it was suspended.

After WW2, the world was shocked by the discovery of the horrors of the holocaust, and the UN agreed on giving the Jews their independent state according to the Devision Plan, even though the Arabs were against it.

The minute the state of Israel was founded on 1948, the Arabic nations, aided by some of the Palestinian Arabs invaded, wanting to wipe this new state. They failed, Israel won, and occupied a lot more land then the Devision plan had given it. Also many Palestinian Arabs, who were afraid of the war and of the retaliation of the Jews, fled from their homes, and out of the areas occupied by Israel. These are the Palestinian Refugees.

Israel was still at risk of getting wiped out as it was surrounded by enemies: Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Irak.
so Israel decided to stay in these new borders, and not let the refugees come back.

On 1967 the same thing happened, the Arabic nations Egypt, Jordan, and Syria tried to fight Israel, but Israel won the war, and this time took much more land: The west Bank from Jordan, Gaza Strip and Sinai from Egypt, and the Golan Heights from Syria.

This time Israel occupied land populated my many Palestinians, many of them are refugees from the 1948 war, who still want to come back to their old homes, and hate Israel for that.

The PLO was founded to fight for the right of the Palestinians for their own state, making terror attacks against Israel.

Eventually Israel decided to agree to give up the areas occupied on 1967, and the peace process between Israel and the PLO began.

But the peace process was slow. It was slow for several reasons:
The Israeli people was still suspicious of the Palestinians, because of a century of hostility, and it agreed only on slow and gradual advancement of the peace process.
The Palestinian extremists such as Hamas, did not agree on any peace, and continued to make terror attacks against Israel even during the peace talks. This gave support to the Israeli nationalist parties, that wanted to slow down the peace process further.
Also the Palestinian leader Yasser Araffat had a problem signing a peace treaty fearing that he will give up on a few of the Palestinian demands. He decided to start the Second Intifada, in hope of applying pressure on Israel to give up more on the final treaty. This Second Intifada, was much worse than the first, because by then the Palestinians had thousands of guns, given to them by Israel during the first part of the peace process. They turned these guns on Israel, with devastating results to both sides.

Israel suspended the peace talks until this terror will stop.

While this was going on, Israel tightened it's rule over the Palestinians, to try to stop the terror attacks of both Hamas and Fatah ( PLO ). This increased more and more the hatred of the Palestinians towards Israel.

When Arafat died, the Second Intifada was over, in the Fatah stopped attacking Israel. But by then the hatred of the Palestinians towards the Israelis was so bad, that Hamas won the elections of the parliament of Palestine. Hamas is dedicated to the destruction of Israel, and does not want peace, so the peace talks were suspended to this day.

This year there is a breach between Hamas and Fatah, after Hamas took over Gaza, killing all the Fatah officials there.
So now Israel has began to continue the peace process with Fatah, which controls the West Bank, while the Gaza strip and Hamas are ignored for now.

Wow, that took a long time to write...

So you see the hatred of the Palestinians towards Israel was created by a gradual process, involving the mass immigration of Jews into the country and buying the land of the Arabs, the intervention of the Arabic countries with their own agenda's, the cold war- that I didn't mention - as the Soviets supported the Arabs, and the US supported Israel, (as it is a free-market democracy), the fear and paranoia of the Jews because of 2000 years of persecution, the clash between religions ( For example The Muslim 3rd most sacred place is located on top of the Jewish 1st most sacred place ),
And hate give power to the extremists on both sides, which cause further hate etc etc.

In retrospect my personal opinion is that it was a mistake to built the home of the Jews in Palestine. But if I lived 100 years ago I probably would have thought otherwise...

How to untangle this mess? Actually it's possible, all that it takes is that the sane people from both sides keep striving for peace, and that the international community help by influencing both sides to support the parties that strive for peace and to give no support to the extremists.

THANK YOU dodbird! Well, I was goiing to say pretty much exactly what dodo saiod, but he does it better.

I was doing a lot of historical research on the subject. There was one thing that caught my eye. This is mentioned in Wikipedia, in the part of it's "Israel" article that is about the Jewish kingdoms in the early Iron Age:

"The term "Palestine" derives from the word Philistine, the word in Hebrew is פְּלְשְׁתִּים Pelishtim, this word is derived from the word פְּלִישָׁה Pelisha, meaning invasion or incursion.

The name was given to the non-Semitic ethnic group, originating from Southern Greece, closely related to early Mycenaean civilization. Inhabiting a smaller area on the southern coast called Philistia, whose borders approximate the modern Gaza Strip, Philistia comprised a confederation of five city states: Gaza, Ashkelon, Ashdod on the coast and Ekron, and Gath inland.

Egyptian texts of the temple at Medinet Habu, record a people called the P-r-s-t (conventionally Peleset), one of the Sea Peoples who invaded Egypt in Ramesses III's reign. This is considered very likely to be a reference to the Philistines. The Hebrew name Peleshet (Hebrew: פלשת‎ Pəléshseth), usually translated as Philistia in English, is used in the Bible to denote their southern coastal region"

Edit: I just want to say something to Imran.

I don't know what your problem with Israel is, but in any of your posts that see, you use some kind of petty excuse to make blind, idiotic, random assumptions and wild accusations about Israel, usually with nothing to back it up except a lot of hate and it's really starting to piss me off. It's just mindless shit. Now, it's unbelievable tiring to see morons like you make such stupid statements regularly as clockwork, so I would be more than happy to debate this with you in a new thread you and show that you are an ignorant fool, but you will probably reject that offer. But if you ever get any balls, please consider it.

I'll be back in about 2 weeks.

Originally Posted by dodobird

Let me try to explain where the origin of the hatred started.
I will extremely briefly narrate the historical background, because I think it's essential to understand this dispute:
About 2000 years ago the Jews were booted out of the land of Israel by the Romans.

They were persecuted, and by the 19th century they decided they had enough of it, and the European Jews decided to go were they can be masters of their own fate, so they started to come back to this land, that was called by this time Palestine.

Palestine was not empty, parts of it was populated by Palestinian Arabs. The Jews bought land from them and built villages.

During the first quarter of the 20th century the persecution in Europe gotten worse, and lots of Jews started to immigrate to Palestine. Some Palestinian Arabs nationalists felt that the land was being overtaken gradually by the Jews, and started to do some terror attacks. The Jews defended themselves from such attacks with their own militia.

When the Nazis rose, many more Jews escaped to Palestine. There was more aggression by Arabs, fueled by the Arabic nations surrounding Israel, that started to fantasize on taking over after the British leave. ( By that time the value of the land was high, because of the rapid development done by the Jews, and the British )

It was clear by this time that the Jews are determined to built their home in the land, and that the Arab Palestinians and the Arabic nations wouldn't let them do it without full scale war. The UN suggested to divide the land into 2 states, one for the Arab and one for the Jews (The Devision Plan). The Jews agreed even though their area was very small. The Arabs didn't agree to this plan, and it was suspended.

After WW2, the world was shocked by the discovery of the horrors of the holocaust, and the UN agreed on giving the Jews their independent state according to the Devision Plan, even though the Arabs were against it.

The minute the state of Israel was founded on 1948, the Arabic nations, aided by some of the Palestinian Arabs invaded, wanting to wipe this new state. They failed, Israel won, and occupied a lot more land then the Devision plan had given it. Also many Palestinian Arabs, who were afraid of the war and of the retaliation of the Jews, fled from their homes, and out of the areas occupied by Israel. These are the Palestinian Refugees.

Israel was still at risk of getting wiped out as it was surrounded by enemies: Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Irak.
so Israel decided to stay in these new borders, and not let the refugees come back.

On 1967 the same thing happened, the Arabic nations Egypt, Jordan, and Syria tried to fight Israel, but Israel won the war, and this time took much more land: The west Bank from Jordan, Gaza Strip and Sinai from Egypt, and the Golan Heights from Syria.

This time Israel occupied land populated my many Palestinians, many of them are refugees from the 1948 war, who still want to come back to their old homes, and hate Israel for that.

The PLO was founded to fight for the right of the Palestinians for their own state, making terror attacks against Israel.

Eventually Israel decided to agree to give up the areas occupied on 1967, and the peace process between Israel and the PLO began.

But the peace process was slow. It was slow for several reasons:
The Israeli people was still suspicious of the Palestinians, because of a century of hostility, and it agreed only on slow and gradual advancement of the peace process.
The Palestinian extremists such as Hamas, did not agree on any peace, and continued to make terror attacks against Israel even during the peace talks. This gave support to the Israeli nationalist parties, that wanted to slow down the peace process further.
Also the Palestinian leader Yasser Araffat had a problem signing a peace treaty fearing that he will give up on a few of the Palestinian demands. He decided to start the Second Intifada, in hope of applying pressure on Israel to give up more on the final treaty. This Second Intifada, was much worse than the first, because by then the Palestinians had thousands of guns, given to them by Israel during the first part of the peace process. They turned these guns on Israel, with devastating results to both sides.

Israel suspended the peace talks until this terror will stop.

While this was going on, Israel tightened it's rule over the Palestinians, to try to stop the terror attacks of both Hamas and Fatah ( PLO ). This increased more and more the hatred of the Palestinians towards Israel.

When Arafat died, the Second Intifada was over, in the Fatah stopped attacking Israel. But by then the hatred of the Palestinians towards the Israelis was so bad, that Hamas won the elections of the parliament of Palestine. Hamas is dedicated to the destruction of Israel, and does not want peace, so the peace talks were suspended to this day.

This year there is a breach between Hamas and Fatah, after Hamas took over Gaza, killing all the Fatah officials there.
So now Israel has began to continue the peace process with Fatah, which controls the West Bank, while the Gaza strip and Hamas are ignored for now.

Wow, that took a long time to write...

So you see the hatred of the Palestinians towards Israel was created by a gradual process, involving the mass immigration of Jews into the country and buying the land of the Arabs, the intervention of the Arabic countries with their own agenda's, the cold war- that I didn't mention - as the Soviets supported the Arabs, and the US supported Israel, (as it is a free-market democracy), the fear and paranoia of the Jews because of 2000 years of persecution, the clash between religions ( For example The Muslim 3rd most sacred place is located on top of the Jewish 1st most sacred place ),
And hate give power to the extremists on both sides, which cause further hate etc etc.

In retrospect my personal opinion is that it was a mistake to built the home of the Jews in Palestine. But if I lived 100 years ago I probably would have thought otherwise...

How to untangle this mess? Actually it's possible, all that it takes is that the sane people from both sides keep striving for peace, and that the international community help by influencing both sides to support the parties that strive for peace and to give no support to the extremists.

First let me admit that my knowledge on this topic is far lesser than yours as I have no firsthand expeirence, however, I do bleieve that some of this can be expanded on.

For instance, when the waves of immgration began, it was not so much a problem, Jews were migrating to the land of there forefathers in small numbers. However, the later waves of immigration brought many more Jews, this time secular rich jews, not orthodox religoous Jews, these Jews brought land and refused to lett it out to the arabs. This is the beggining of political Zionism and in my eyes a form of subtle racism. Jews would only lett land to Jews, thus they took land bit by bit.
Of coruse the Arabs hated it, we all would if it was happeneing to our country, so they organised riots and yes they attacked Jews. The Zionists created there own miltias to fight the Palestinians. At this point the British mandate was issued and restrictions were place on how many people, mainly Jews, could migrate into Palestine.
Due to the Nazi movement, the mandate did not do much, Jews fled to Palestine in great numbers. I think, during the holocaust most countries refused to accpet dsipalced Jews, so they fled to Palestine. In 1947 Britain withdrew the mandate.

The part where you mentioned the partition plan confused me, because the partion plan was suggested by the General Assemply, suggestion from the Assembly are not binding. They are merely that, suggestions. So anyway, the ISraelis were in favour of said partion plan, Im sure they were given about half the land. The arabs rejected it, oviously, as any of us would.
It just seems to me that it was European Jewry and Westerners calling out for a Jewish State maybe it should of been created somewhere in Germany as punishment for the Holocaust, or somewhere else in the West.

So yeah, the State of Israel was formed even though the Arabs rejected it, britain had left. Then came all the attacks on th enewly formed state of israel. During the hotislites many Arabs fled Israel, but not only ddi they flee but they were also persecuted by the miltas we spoke of earlier. At this point I get kind of lost, but its my udnerstanding that many Jews were persectued in Arab lands also causing an exodus. In the end the Jews won the war and occupied further terrorities, leaving many Arabs dsipalcd.

Now the biggest injsutice to me, is the LAw of entry, these arab cannot return but any Jew in the world can go to ISrael. Is that hoenslty right?

From then on there ahve been inredibly amounts of hositsilty on both sides, and suspicion.
Peace has never worked because of the very vocal radical portions of both the Jews and the Arabs.
Some Jews reject the idea of Arabs returning to ISrael as this would create an Arab majority, which would mean the State of ISrael would no longer be a Jewish State. Some Arabs refuse the JEwish States legitmiacy.

I left large gaps, but its my udnerstanding of the crisis.

Imran