Thread: Twelve Step Heretic - carried forward from a Help topic

You have given liberalism to the enemy.

I suggest you rethink that strategy.

Liberalism has been stolen by the enemy, not given by me. They took a good idea, and used it to fill peoples heads with self righteousness and victimization. Liberals play on people's emotions and misfortunes to gain power. It pathetic and twisted.

Again, I would love to engage in an in depth exploration of that subject, but not in this thread. If you want to start a new thread, do so and point to it from here.

Do yourself a favor and learn what Cultural Marxism is, where it came from, and how it has (and is being) implemented. You will begin to understand where I am coming from.

A.A. saved and continues to save my father's life, so for those of you who don't agree with it based on something about the wording of the philosophy you that don't happen to like, without any first-hand experience, you are pretty much saying the people whose lives it has saved would be better off dead. The twelve-step philosophy has been a part of my life indirectly for so long (due to hearing about it incessantly for like the last 25 or 30 years), I apply it all the time without even thinking about it. It helps in many situatitions, with many sorts of problems, that's why there is A.A., N.A., O.A., for sex addicts, and gambling addicts, etc. etc.

It doesn't matter if you are an atheist (which I am and my father used to be when he first started going); you just have to realize that there is something in the universe which is greater than yourself. That's not hard for anyone to imagine, especially an addict.

Mental disorders, of which addiction is one, are real diseases. It doesn't matter if they are self-induced or exacerbated by an individual's behavior; this is true of many (most?) physical diseases as well. Blaming addicts for their condition is the same as blaming a person for depression, or obesity, or diabetes, or arthritis, etc. etc.--a lot of the diseases people suffer from are there own "fault", but luckily they can be treated by behavioral changes, if a person is willing, and just as a diabetic needs to learn how to eat differently, an addict can learn changes in thinking patterns which can alleviate their disease. That is how twelve-step programs help.

My father continues to go to A.A. because he says that his recovery depends on helping other people. And just like a diabetic, an addict is never "recovered", because the symptoms of their chronic disease will come back if they don't continue to practice what they have learned. To each their own, if it is working.

I say this knowing that some former abusers, such as pj and myself, can change their ways, in his case after giving up going to meetings, in my case never even starting (but like I said I got a lot of it second-hand). I don't know what that part means, but it doesn't mean that A.A. doesn't serve its purpose for some people. If it's not your thing, don't go, but you shouldn't criticize it, because it has saved a lot of people.

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

If it's not your thing, don't go, but you shouldn't criticize it, because it has saved a lot of people.

I'm not debating that, I just think that if a method was created involving complete personal acceptance of control over the issue, even more people could be completely saved, just as you and pj have been.

Addiction is a very difficult thing to overcome, but no matter how powerful the urge is, it is always possible for an addict to say no. I'm not saying it's easy, by any means, but if you were to lock an addict in a room with no drugs, they would be 'cured' after a long enough period. There are no other diseases like this, which is why many hesitate to consider it a disease - it's more of a state of mind which needs to be broken out of. It's entirely possible for some individuals to break free from such a state through sheer will, and I know some people who have done so. I think that if we try to reinforce the idea of addiction as a state of mind instead of an affliction that the addict has 'no power' over, we may save many more people from despair and relapse.

There may be different roads to the same place, but most addicted people fail no matter which way they go. That is the nature of the disease, and is why you should not criticize something that works for some people--it's more help than some theoretical wonderful program that doesn't exist except as your idea of what would be ideal, because you don't like how the first step sounds. Unless you've developed this method and tested it and it has a higher success rate than programs that are currently operating and actually helping people, you are knocking the one thing that may save an individual addict.

I'm not saying I'm so great or anything, because I don't know my diagnosis exactly, just that I used to use way too many drugs, and now I don't. I think it is much harder for most people than it is for me. And probably because I've had so much twelve-step shoved down my throat for years, but I'm better off for it.

How do you know it is always possible for an addict to say no? Your experience as a former heroin addict? Your success in quitting smoking? You can't cure an addict by "locking them in a room" for a long time, and "sheer will" does not work forever--will power always eventually fails. It takes something else, a spiritual change, as pj said, and that is what twelve-step programs teach. You do not understand, and because you don't understand, you shouldn't knock it. No offense, but it's obvious that you just don't get it. That's OK, most people don't and never will, but for those that do, it is a life-saver.

I guess the resolution to the disagreement here might be that addicts who are at step one really are hopelessly addicted and completely powerless. I very much believe that. However, many steps later, that is not the case any more for a lot of them. That should be recognized. Maybe the counsellors should say, "You were once powerless over your addiction, but now you have a hold on it. It is your responsibility to maintain that hold, and not anybody else's responsibility." How does that sound?

I have seen pain killer addicts who have been sober for more than a year talk about how they have a disease and how relapse is something that often comes with the disease. I think that mentality is self-defeating and sets them up for failure. It provides too much of an excuse. What they should be thinking at that point is, "It's all up to me now."

Originally Posted by thegnome54

It's entirely possible for some individuals to break free from such a state through sheer will, and I know some people who have done so.

A state of mind gets an addict there, but once there it becomes a terrible trap. The trap never happens for some people, while for others it gets you unbelievably quickly. There is a genetic predisposition in some people. I happen to come from a long line of alcoholics on my mother's side. My children know they have alcoholics from both sides, and are going to have to weigh that very carefully when the time comes for them to decide whether they wish to drink.

We have a saying in AA about willpower: the next time you have diarrhea, try willing yourself to stop.

My point in starting this has gotten lost. It was simply that AA itself can become an addiction. Given the choice between being addicted to AA or being addicted to any substance, the choice seems perfectly clear. I would much rather see a person immersed in the AA lifestyle and alive than any of the alternatives - alternatives which include the likelihood of death and insanity.

I mentioned that my life has been tremendously impacted by alcoholics who have ended up going in these other directions. There are some here who know the story of my wife's mother, whose alcoholism ended in her tragic, senseless death that ended up turning our lives inside-out for months. Another close family member, while now possibly sober after repeated rehab stays and a 40 year cycle of addiction and relapse, seems to have gone the insanity route - a situation involving two young children who will continue to bear the weight of their mother's irresponsibility for the rest of their lives.

This shit isn't theoretical. It's real, and it kills. I can just as emphatically state that AA works. In the face of the alternatives, that's a pretty staggering promise to be able to make.

PJ, I am curious to know whether you agree with what I have said. It's pretty much summed up in my last post.