Thread: Twelve Step Heretic - carried forward from a Help topic

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Originally Posted by Oneironaught

What I discovered is that those organisations are a cult of sorts. The mechanism they use to keep "members" is the brainwashing and implantation of the idea that you can never, and never will, truly quit the habit. And, indeed, they don't: not really, that is. Because they end up surrounding themselves with it. They never break free from the bond.

There are people who haven't done drugs or drank alcohol in YEARS - I'm talking 10, 20, 30, 35 years - that attend the meetings like it's their church. And, in many ways, it now is.

I decided to get sober when I turned 21, after spending my teen years first immersed in drugs and the drug culture, then briefly cleaning up before diving headlong into alcohol. The end result was me using alcohol like any other drug I had my life enveloped in, and my descent into alcoholism was rapid.

I would not have sobered up if not for AA. The Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions are many things, and the depth of each of them is such that they can be revisited again and again to continue finding profound new meaning and implication. The year I finally got sober, 1982, I had just drank myself out of a job in which I was making more money already at 21 years old than my father had ever made in his life. I was unemployed at a time that the economy was terrible, which made for a great time to immerse myself in Alcoholics Anonymous.

And immerse myself I did. I attended two and three meetings a day, and then hung out at an Alano Club, which was essentially a dry bar, much of the rest of the time. Sobriety stuck, and I made a lot of friends. Soon I found myself going on "12th Step Calls," which are essentially interventions when somebody calls AA and asks for help. I remained on the call list for several years.

It became my life for a time. Even my romantic interests were from this circle. After breaking off a second relationship, I realized that the whole lifestyle had become a replacement for the drugs and alcohol - which had served its purpose, indeed, but was no longer healthy or resulting in getting on with my life.

Before I go on, I need to say that if sober people don't attend meetings, they won't be much good. AA and other twelve-step groups absolutely depend on the interaction between people wandering in wondering whether they have any hope at all with people who are proof that the program works. The program DOES work. Some of us humans are just so prone to addictive behavior that the program itself becomes an unhealthy addiction. I am one of those.

So I quit AA. Twenty plus years later, I'm still clean and sober and happy, and life is better than I ever imagined it could be. I still choose not to drink or use mind altering substances, but I'm not afraid of alcohol. Over the years I've tasted wines, and I use alcohol copiously in my cooking. No cravings result from it. I could probably drink if I wanted to - but I like it way too much and would very likely return to my old destructive ways. Sober is better. That's my choice of lifestyle.

I have experienced a certain resentment from "program people" when they find out that I successfully quit AA. It is a sort of heresy. You aren't supposed to be able to do it. All I can say in response to that is that AA did what it needed to do for me, and I certainly returned the favor many times over. It was time to move on. I don't need AA to work the program. Being in AA is actually an unhealthy opportunity to allow pride and status issues to come to the forefront, two things that were part and parcel of my addictive behavior.

Regarding the church-like aspect of the Twelve Steps; of course it becomes a church for people! The path to sobriety is entirely a spiritual journey. The steps lead us along a path of cleaning up the dishonesty in our lives and then maintaining that state of simple purity. Like churches, AA meetings are prone to the same confusions and abuses as any other spiritually-bound group of humans. You won't find a perfect church, and you won't find a perfect AA meeting or group. It is an individual path, taken with the help and support of others until we can do it on our own.

Sobriety - true sobriety - is not replacing one unhealthy behavior with another. It is the complete reconstruction of a person's life, in humility and recognition of the incredible mess that was made of it the first go. The Twelve Steps are amazingly powerful tools in the path to achieving that goal, so long as they don't become the end in themselves.

First of all, I commend you on your success. 12-step programs can and do work, if you work the program.

Originally Posted by pj

It became my life for a time. Even my romantic interests were from this circle. After breaking off a second relationship, I realized that the whole lifestyle had become a replacement for the drugs and alcohol - which had served its purpose, indeed, but was no longer healthy or resulting in getting on with my life.

And that was my point with the post you quoted. There's a time when the recoveree must be able to step away from the program because it can only do so much. Beyond that point, goers are simply substituting one drug obsession with another.

So I quit AA. Twenty plus years later, I'm still clean and sober and happy, and life is better than I ever imagined it could be. I still choose not to drink or use mind altering substances, but I'm not afraid of alcohol. Over the years I've tasted wines, and I use alcohol copiously in my cooking. No cravings result from it. I could probably drink if I wanted to - but I like it way too much and would very likely return to my old destructive ways. Sober is better. That's my choice of lifestyle.

I always manage to find new levels of respect for you, pj. And attitudes like this are the very reason why.

It was time to move on.

People like you are why the programs work. They do their part and stick around for awhile to help others. Many members, however (as has been said) choose to never leave because they are fed the notion that without constant active participation in NOT using their vice they can never break free of said vice. To me, that's so backwards. The only way to break free is to reach a point where you simply break free and move on with your life.

Sobriety - true sobriety - is not replacing one unhealthy behavior with another. It is the complete reconstruction of a person's life, in humility and recognition of the incredible mess that was made of it the first go. The Twelve Steps are amazingly powerful tools in the path to achieving that goal, so long as they don't become the end in themselves.

Amen, brother

You know, when I went it wasn't because of an alcohol or drug problem. It was purely a legal problem. But, if I were to say that I got nothing out of going I'd be lying. I actually found some pretty deep spirituality in those meetings. There was a real bond going on there. Unfortunately, that's also what sucks some people in so deep, even long after they've supposedly moved on from their issues.

I say: Take and use the tools. Then apply them to the real world with real friends and healthy environments. Dwelling for years about how you're a hopeless addict isn't going to move you past that. Especially when you've been sober for years. If you don't do drugs then you're not an addict (any longer). And if you haven't done drugs for years then you're not "recovering", you are recovered.

"Recovering" implies ongoing dependence. "Recovered", yeah, that's empowering! That's victory. Don't let anyone take away your pride and sense of accomplishment.

I believe that the whole philosophy of the twelve step system is inherently flawed.

If you look at even the first step, you will see what I'm referring to - it essentially convinces the addictees that they are powerless over their own lives, and that only a 'greater power' can help them. To me, that is entirely wrong. The moment one 'admits' that they are powerless over their own decisions, it becomes true. This is the very reason people stay in AA groups for such periods of time - they've been brainwashed into thinking that they are incapable of staying sober on their own, and that they NEED some outside source of strength to overcome their addiction. AA becomes that source.

It seems to me that pj was able to leave because he didn't become completely convinced at step one. The system obviously helped him, but in the end he retained his control over his life, and that enabled him to carry on the sobriety on his own.

Despite clearly having positive effects on many addicts, twelve-step programs seem to weaken most of them, instead of making them emotionally strong enough to resist temptation. The people who stay in these groups long after their goal is attained are essentially broken. Their self-confidence, and their belief in their power over their lives, is systematically destroyed by the very first step.

I just think there has to be a more constructive method of action.

On another note, do they really send you to twelve-step programs for legal reasons? That seems a bit odd to me, considering that they are largely dependent on 'God'. I know they try to get out of this problem by saying 'God as we see him', but what happens if you're a militant atheist who sees no God at all?

[quote]If you look at even the first step, you will see what I'm referring to - it essentially convinces the addictees that they are powerless over their own lives, and that only a 'greater power' can help them. To me, that is entirely wrong. The moment one 'admits' that they are powerless over their own decisions, it becomes true. This is the very reason people stay in AA groups for such periods of time - they've been brainwashed into thinking that they are incapable of staying sober on their own, and that they NEED some outside source of strength to overcome their addiction. AA becomes that source.[quote]

Absolutely true. I agree. I think that AA doesn't want their members to leave because they don't believe in them, and that is just not right. How can you expect people to overcome their addictions, and how can they expect to if they have an organization that doesn't truly believe that they can eventually go off on their own?

I watched my uncle go through AA. It was really bad for a really long time. He was always a wreck. Rushing off to AA meetings at night, but he never really believed he could do it. The 12 steps did get him through a lot of his problems, and he did end up sober, but only after he left was he truly sober.

On another note, do they really send you to twelve-step programs for legal reasons? That seems a bit odd to me, considering that they are largely dependent on 'God'. I know they try to get out of this problem by saying 'God as we see him', but what happens if you're a militant atheist who sees no God at all?

Then you're screwed I guess

Originally Posted by thegnome54

If you look at even the first step, you will see what I'm referring to - it essentially convinces the addictees that they are powerless over their own lives, and that only a 'greater power' can help them. To me, that is entirely wrong. The moment one 'admits' that they are powerless over their own decisions, it becomes true.

...and that they NEED some outside source of strength to overcome their addiction. AA becomes that source.

I completely agree.

It seems to me that pj was able to leave because he didn't become completely convinced at step one. The system obviously helped him, but in the end he retained his control over his life, and that enabled him to carry on the sobriety on his own.

That's right, the program should be a source for coping skills, not a permanent crutch.

On another note, do they really send you to twelve-step programs for legal reasons?

Yes, but it was an option. Either jump through their hoops, go and get my paper signed or have a record for being arrested for having a tiny bit of pot in my house. My roommate had gotten a friendly visit from the police one day and they smelled his pot that he was smoking in the living room. Next thing I know there was f*cking cops in our home and one is at my bedroom door asking if they can search. It was all downhill from there.

Long story short, an accident on some one else's part landed me in jail for some hours. The resolution was either standard probation or this new program that only first-time misdemeanor offenders could take advantage of. It involved monthly consultations with a case worker, 8 meetings a month (NA/AA), filling out paperwork for each meeting, paying money each month, taking piss tests twice a week, and other hoops through which to jump. The advantage is that it was shorter than standard probation and it keep the offense from being logged on my record.

Proudly, I can say that I was a poster child for the program. I mean, I had every 'i' dotted and every 't' crossed. I impressed my case worker so much and got along with her so well that she ended up letting me out of the program early. They all loved me and, honestly, I didn't hate having to do it. Well, at first I did but, the way every one related to me was rather surreal. I sometimes have that effect on people. In real life, people love me for some reason. Honesty and sincerity go a long way in life. Plus, I was able to maintain an amazingly positive attitude about the whole situation, which eased the road immensely.

My case worker actually cried when I gave her a "goodbye" card on the last day I saw her. On my way out of the courtroom, she ran up to me and gave me a huge bear hug with tears in her eyes

I know they try to get out of this problem by saying 'God as we see him', but what happens if you're a militant atheist who sees no God at all?

And by referring to "a Higher Power".

Originally Posted by thegnome54

If you look at even the first step, you will see what I'm referring to - it essentially convinces the addictees that they are powerless over their own lives, and that only a 'greater power' can help them. To me, that is entirely wrong. The moment one 'admits' that they are powerless over their own decisions, it becomes true.

I'm afraid I must disagree with you all.

Believing we have control over the situation is insanity. If we had control, we wouldn't have become addicted. By the time we get to the point of being willing to try a 12 step program, you can bet EVERY other option has failed, and that we have left behind a trail of disaster, damage and profound hurt.

No - we are there because we COULDN'T fix it ourselves. Admitting we have failed, that we are powerless, is the absolutely essential first step in starting to tear down the lifestyle that got us where we were so that we can start building again.

The only way to accept powerlessness and failure without falling into complete hopeless despair is to recognize that there is something beyond us capable of restoring us to sanity. If not, then admitting defeat is tantamount to suicide. Sadly, for most addicts and alcoholics, NOT admitting defeat is equally suicidal.

Nope... admitting powerlessness is essential. There's a reason it is the first step.

This is a very interesting and important thread. I have had my own problems with drugs over the years. I will give my background on it before I talk about AA and such. (If you want to skip to that, go to the second paragraph.) I have a problem with binge drinking, but I don't have a problem of wanting to drink every day. I don't drink that often. It's just that once in a while I have a strong urge to do it, and it's when I do it that there is often a problem. Once I start drinking, I sometimes just keep going and going until I black out and have to learn the next morning what I did, and what I did is often pretty insane. That problem really started slowing down for me when I woke up in the emergency room three years ago after getting sent there by some cops who found me somewhere about to fall over dead. Sadly, it took a few more blackouts for me to really get a better handle on the situation. I still drink sometimes, but it has been a while since I really went overboard. I probably need to quit completely. Also, I have a pot addiction. But that is a psychological one like gambling, and I sometimes go weeks and even months without pot when I really try. Pot very noticably fogs up my head, makes me much lazier, and makes me feel significantly sickly when I get on a tear with it. I feel all of those effects even weeks after the phase ends. I have come close to overdosing on cocaine and meth a few times each, but I know I will never use meth again and that if I were to ever do cocaine again, I would keep a major limit on how much I did. I have a much stronger grip on meth than cocaine for some reason. But hopefully I will never do cocaine again either. I went through a shoot up pain killers phase. It lasted four months. I ended up quitting on my own, without going to any meetings. That is very unusual, but it might not have been so easy if I had continued the habit much longer. Psychedelic drugs like salvia divinorum and LSD are non-addictive and non-lethal, so I am not totally sure how they work into things. Sometimes it seems that leaving their door open leaves the door open to all drugs. Maybe so. I still have not completely shut the door on them, but I'm thinking I might have to.

So that is my background with drugs. I still do them sometimes, but I have gotten much better. I am leaning toward cutting them out completely, and sometimes I go weeks and months without doing any at all, with 100% belief that I have quit for life. So I have a drug problem, but not one that I think would be helped by AA. I went to an AA meeting one time, and it was not for me at all. I was in a room full of people who love to get blitzed out of their minds and who talked for an hour straight about how they love to get blitzed out of their minds. Some of them cried while they did it, and that was very depressing for me. They kept talking about getting messed up. That situation of being in a room full of drug lovers talking about drugs and how they love to do them made me want to get blasted out of my mind. But we all just walked out and didn't get messed up. But I wanted to get lit way more when I walked out of there than I did when I walked in. So I think those meetings are apparently good for people who are hoplessly obsessed with getting messed up all day every day, but sometimes not for people who still have some room to quit on their own.

A high percentage of my best friends from my college years and the years following college are either dead or hopelessly hooked on stuff that has them where they are just the walking dead. Their lives are essentially over, unless something very drastic happens. I am talking about people who have to wake up and do their drugs and then maintain their effects all day, even if that means robbing their parents' houses, which is something they would have never dreamed of doing 15 years ago. Many of them have been to rehab so many times that they no longer think it's worth attending. They have zero control over their problems, and I know that facing that is a necessar first step. Those people have faced it and need to continue down the right road. I think they definitely need to get into a program and stay in it for life. And I have seen where those programs help keep people sober. Copac is one of the best rehabs in the U.S., and it's in Jackson, where I live. A lot of celebrities come here to attend it. I used to live around a bunch of Copac people, and I know that it saved their lives and has kept them sober for years and years. All of them were all day every day users of very hard and addictive drugs, and Copac helped them save themselves. Now they are still part of Copac's program and also attend AA meetings every single day. It is like a religion to them, it has them in a state that would qualify as "brainwashed", and in regular conversations they will recite Copac and AA teachings in the same manner extremely religious Christians recite Bible verses. But I think that's a great thing. Because drugs were such an obsession for them, that obsession needed to be replaced with another one. It was their only hope. You can't go from being an all day ever day heroin or meth addict to being somebody completely without an obsession in a short time. I very much believe that something like Copac or AA is necessary.

With that said, I have thought for a long time that maybe after a long, long time, some major addicts could get the benefits they need form the program and then leave the program when the time comes so they can stop wrapping their lives up in drug issues. When you talk and think about not doing drugs all day every day, the drugs are still with you, but you are defending yourself against them. It seems like maybe some people need to reach a point where the drugs have nothing to do with their lives. That might not be the case for everybody, but I think it is for some people. I now know that PJ is an example of one of them. For me personally, AA and such would have me craving drugs every day. They probably produce cravings for everybody, but for some people that craving level is a reduction, while for some people it is an increase. I do my best when drugs have nothing to do with my life, so maybe that should be the long term goal for many people.

Something that makes me mad about AA/NA is how the members are treated as victims. I don't understand the logic behind alcoholism being teated as a "disease". However, it is good for the mental health of addicts to feel like it's not their fault. But, the mentality that "its not my fault" just seems to create relapses.

Originally Posted by pj

Believing we have control over the situation is insanity. If we had control, we wouldn't have become addicted.

But if you don't have control, how can you realize you have a problem and choose to go to AA meetings, devoting several hours a day to trying to fix the problem? That is a form of control. I never said that it's easy to just *stop* drinking - there are complex physiological causes for addiction, and just wanting to stop is often not enough to go through with it. However, to assert that you have NO control over your own actions is bound to make you mentally weak - make you give up on yourself, believing that there's nothing you can do anyways.

Originally Posted by thegnome54

But if you don't have control, how can you realize you have a problem and choose to go to AA meetings, devoting several hours a day to trying to fix the problem? That is a form of control.

The step is "We admitted we were powerless over (fill in the blank), and that our lives had become unmanageable."

That "fill in the blank" bit is what you are missing. We do not convince ourselves we are in some nebulous state of infantile helplessness - but we recognize that we have lost control over alcohol or drugs or whatever else it may be that we have become addicted to, and that we are unable to fix it ourselves.

I really dislike the "disease" thing as well. It is bullshit, as far as I'm concerned - especially when that "disease" can get you into a class of people receiving special treatment for a "disability." My family's life has been deeply impacted by an alcoholic who has embraced this notion, and by other family members who refuse to hold her responsible for her actions as a result.

Genetic propensity or not, we make the choices - right up to the point where we lose control. We choose ourselves to that point. We choose to stick that needle in our arm or take those pills or snort or smoke or drink or whatever. There are consequences to choices... and one of the consequences to certain choices happens to be addiction. It doesn't just fall out of the sky and hit you.