Thread: Twelve Step Heretic - carried forward from a Help topic

Originally Posted by pj

Believing we have control over the situation is insanity. If we had control, we wouldn't have become addicted.

But if you don't have control, how can you realize you have a problem and choose to go to AA meetings, devoting several hours a day to trying to fix the problem? That is a form of control. I never said that it's easy to just *stop* drinking - there are complex physiological causes for addiction, and just wanting to stop is often not enough to go through with it. However, to assert that you have NO control over your own actions is bound to make you mentally weak - make you give up on yourself, believing that there's nothing you can do anyways.

Originally Posted by thegnome54

But if you don't have control, how can you realize you have a problem and choose to go to AA meetings, devoting several hours a day to trying to fix the problem? That is a form of control.

The step is "We admitted we were powerless over (fill in the blank), and that our lives had become unmanageable."

That "fill in the blank" bit is what you are missing. We do not convince ourselves we are in some nebulous state of infantile helplessness - but we recognize that we have lost control over alcohol or drugs or whatever else it may be that we have become addicted to, and that we are unable to fix it ourselves.

I really dislike the "disease" thing as well. It is bullshit, as far as I'm concerned - especially when that "disease" can get you into a class of people receiving special treatment for a "disability." My family's life has been deeply impacted by an alcoholic who has embraced this notion, and by other family members who refuse to hold her responsible for her actions as a result.

Genetic propensity or not, we make the choices - right up to the point where we lose control. We choose ourselves to that point. We choose to stick that needle in our arm or take those pills or snort or smoke or drink or whatever. There are consequences to choices... and one of the consequences to certain choices happens to be addiction. It doesn't just fall out of the sky and hit you.

Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

Something that makes me mad about AA/NA is how the members are treated as victims. I don't understand the logic behind alcoholism being teated as a "disease". However, it is good for the mental health of addicts to feel like it's not their fault. But, the mentality that "its not my fault" just seems to create relapses.

Originally Posted by pj

I really dislike the "disease" thing as well. It is bullshit, as far as I'm concerned - especially when that "disease" can get you into a class of people receiving special treatment for a "disability."

I couldn't agree more. It irks me that society has labeled bad behaviour "disease". Every damn thing that goes wrong is a disease. That's the mentality of the victim. You'll never recover if you accept that you have no control over what your future holds.

I'm sorry, drug abusers and alcoholics are not victims: they are willing participants. Sure, they may have reached the point of "no return", so to speak, where they've lost control. But they themselves brought themselves to that point.

To call it a disease is only a cop-out to say that "I have no control" and "This happened TO me". No, it didn't happen TO you - it's something YOU DID.

Like so many things in today's society, we try to pass blame onto things beyond our control. That way we don't have to answer for our actions. That's bullshit, plain and simple. Your kid won't sit his ass still and pay attention in class? Well, damn, he needs medication. After all, he has a "condition". Dammit, his "condition" is being a kid.

The damn drug companies (and Liberalism) have the world so engulfed in finger pointing, passing the buck and subscribing to their BS mentality that every thing is a medical condition. Well, I'm here to say that it's not. Personal responsibility is where it's at.

We all choose our path in life: Choose wisely.

Well said Onieronaught. Liberalism is evasive and ultimately dangerous. It makes every social issue twice as complicated, because "who should we blame?" is more important than the solution. And liberalism will always gain power as long as there are people who are too lazy or incapable of solving their own problems.

Ha! I have to disagree with you guys again.

"Liberalism" has historically been about open-mindedness and liberty - keeping government out of people's lives and business, allowing the maximum freedom for human beings to progress through innovation and creativity nurtured in a non-repressive environment.

I'll grant you that at this point in history that is no longer so, but most people who call themselves "liberal" don't seem to understand that. What they seem to fear (and rightly so, based on track record) in modern "conservatism" is exactly the same thing that is being dished up by "liberals". This is simply because collectivists have co-opted the "liberal" label.

Never forget that Thomas Jefferson was a liberal.

I would take that "liberal" tag out of both of your arguments and replace it with "Cultural Marxism", which accurately reflects the notion of forced sharing of responsibility. Do a search on the term and enjoy some fascinating reading.

Let's not allow this thread to collapse into an argument about this particular point though, even though I do feel it is important. Start another thread on it if you wish.

PJ, the only thing liberalism is doing today is complicating everything. It allows blame to be placed anywhere you want it. Liberalism is a philosophy of whining and finger pointing.

Liberalism brough "Political Correctness" on us. PC is an absolute joke. Everybody is "so offended" these days, and even our sports teams are being attacked for their names.

Liberalism asserts that the right not to be offended is more important than free speech and freedom of religion. It has done some good, but it values and harbors victimization. It is a hippie joke that flew out of control in the hands of smug individuals.

You have given liberalism to the enemy.

I suggest you rethink that strategy.