Boot it out!!!

[dragonoverlord]

Kick Israeli Apartheid Out of Football - Fair Play for the Palestinians Kick Israeli Apartheid Out of Football Fair Play for the Palestinians We the undersigned urge the Football Association (FA), the Union of European Football Association (UEFA) and the International Federation of Association Football (FIFA) to take appropriate measures to ban the national Israeli football team from all international fixtures until the state of Israel entirely complies with International Law and relevant United Nations resolutions to end Israeli occupation. For the past 60 years, Israel has been destroying Palestinian lives, livelihoods and homes daily, is refusing to stop the building of illegal settlements and the apartheid wall on stolen land. Palestinians love football but both amateur and professional players and the Palestinian Football Association are unable to function fully because of the occupation. Children have been killed and injured by the Israeli army while playing football. International and national football organizations must take action to support the Palestinians right and ability to participate at every level of the game. We believe that, like the sporting boycott against Apartheid South Africa, only international pressure can make Israel end its violations of international Law and human rights towards the Palestinian people to bring about a just and lasting peace to the Middle-East. (This petition will be brought to the attention of the FA, UEFA and FIFA ahead of the England - Israel Euro qualifier on 8th September 2007). sign here --> http://www.palestinecampaign.org/pet...p?PetitionID=4

[A Humble Sinner]

Kick Israeli Apartheid Out of Football - Fair Play for the Palestinians Kick Israeli Apartheid Out of Football Fair Play for the Palestinians We the undersigned urge the Football Association (FA), the Union of European Football Association (UEFA) and the International Federation of Association Football (FIFA) to take appropriate measures to ban the national Israeli football team from all international fixtures until the state of Israel entirely complies with International Law and relevant United Nations resolutions to end Israeli occupation. For the past 60 years, Israel has been destroying Palestinian lives, livelihoods and homes daily, is refusing to stop the building of illegal settlements and the apartheid wall on stolen land. Palestinians love football but both amateur and professional players and the Palestinian Football Association are unable to function fully because of the occupation. Children have been killed and injured by the Israeli army while playing football. International and national football organizations must take action to support the Palestinians right and ability to participate at every level of the game. We believe that, like the sporting boycott against Apartheid South Africa, only international pressure can make Israel end its violations of international Law and human rights towards the Palestinian people to bring about a just and lasting peace to the Middle-East. (This petition will be brought to the attention of the FA, UEFA and FIFA ahead of the England - Israel Euro qualifier on 8th September 2007). sign here --> http://www.palestinecampaign.org/pet...p?PetitionID=4 That is one of the most biased, ignorant things I've heard in quite a while. "For the past 60 years, Israel has been destroying Palestinian lives, livelihoods and homes daily, is refusing to stop the building of illegal settlements and the apartheid wall on stolen land." The Palestinians have been trying to destroy the state of Israel since it was created. They have waged war on the Israelis again and again while the Israelis have made countless efforts for peace, with the Palestinians and with other Arab states. Israel is not the attacker, and has never been the attacker. In 1967, Israel didn't just wake up and decide, "Hey, let's bash the Arabs!", they got themselves out of bed to protect themselves and retaliate to the war that the Arabs wanted and that the Arabs started. The Israelis have always strived for peace and have always made a point of trying to kill terrorists and suicide bombers, the people who defend their actions in vain, protesting that it was right and holy to shoot Kassam rockets into Israel and blow up school buses. Israel always acts agains these terrorists and doesn't make it's intention to harm or kill innocent Palestinian civillians in brutal acts of terrorism that Hamas are commiting (and the PLO commited before them)*. It's worth mentioning that, as well as trying not to harm innocent people, when there is violence in or near Israel and Arabs are hurt (Lebanese, Palestinan) the Israeli hospitals give them the best of treatment and offer their services to anyone and treat everyone fairly, though sometimes they are rewarded with curses and hurled gobs of spit. This has always been their policy. An Israeli asking for treatment at a Palestinian hospital might well be lynched for his trouble. If you want some more information on the way Israel treats this issue, you might consider viewing the real-life story of this lady, paticularily the bit concerning hospitals - http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...igitte+Gabriel. She explains it much better than I can. "Palestinians love football but both amateur and professional players and the Palestinian Football Association are unable to function fully because of the occupation. Children have been killed and injured by the Israeli army while playing football. International and national football organizations must take action to support the Palestinians right and ability to participate at every level of the game." Your comment about children being hurt makes it sound as if that was the objective of the Israeli Army, and if you have even a shred of evidence supporting that, or that children were hurt at all, please bring it up before caullouslly throwing that in to gain a little sympathy. Not only is it irrelevant, we can't argue the point properly because you have no references to it whatsoever. Personaly, I think it would be a tragedy if a child was hurt, but I have to point out it wasn't the aim of the Israelis Army to hurt it, yet it is the aim of the Palestinian government to blow Israeli children into smithereens. I think you can see the difference of mentality here. By the way, I do think the Palestinians have the right to enjoy football - They have the same rights as me - but tell me why is it you think Israel is not allowed to participate in football and Palestine is? You say this will continue until "until the state of Israel entirely complies with International Law and relevant United Nations resolutions to end Israeli occupation." In the same logic, Palestine shouldn't be allowed to have a football team, because they have also not complied with International Law. Their government is at present a terrorist government that condones terrorism thatdoes not comply with International Law. All this is recognized by the UN. Basically, your argument makes no sense. By the way, the only way there is going to be a just, note just peace in the Middle East is if you give Israelis the same rights you want to give the Palestinians, and when the MIddle East stops asking for the destruction of Israel. A just and lasting peace is not going to happen if the Arabs don't stop trying to kill all Israelis. It's also not going to happen if people like you don't wake up and start to realise that the nasty Israelis are living in terror and are being just as oppressed as the Palestinians. *It's an interesting fact that the PLO, the "sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people" - as regarded by the Arab League since 1974 - whose main goal is to, as stressed in their original charter, to further the destruction of the state of Israel and to annihalate it completely, was founded on June 26, 1964. One of there main goals has always been (apparently that's why they want to bulldoze the Israelis) to return the Palestinian people to the land Israel claimed in the 1967 war.

[Half/Dreaming]

Here is a children's show, on Al Qasa TV, sponsored by Hamas. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lv3dv...elated&search= My favorite part is the "We will anhialate the Jews" part said by the little girl. They say that fanatical Islam is the basis for all civilization, and say they will run the world under Islamic leadership. This is Al Qasa, a Palestinian TV network, of the country you love so much. Here is the main Mickey Mouse character being killed by a Jew, then children saying they will expell the Jews from the land. http://youtube.com/watch?v=z9lL81QhiR8

[Dallian]

A Humble Sinner, thank you. Now I don't have to say it.

[dragonoverlord]

Ya i know there is hypocracy in that statemanet that i copied and pasted. I was just tyring to get a petition sighned. Israel has been treated like the "bad guy" unjustly alot. Though several arab countries have established "normal releations" there is still alot of dislike there.... I cant understand for the life of me why Hamas sends Qassam rockets into israel even though they are bloddily un accurate and same goes with hezbollah and Kayusha. I think in palestine there should be a rule that no policial party should have an armed wing so what happend between fatah and hamas in gaza doenst hapeen again. I think the most important issue right now is Israel and palestine one ie pre 1967 borders. There is a famous saying that everyone cares about palestine but not the palestinians.

[A Humble Sinner]

Ya i know there is hypocracy in that statemanet that i copied and pasted. I was just tyring to get a petition sighned. Israel has been treated like the "bad guy" unjustly alot. Though several arab countries have established "normal releations" there is still alot of dislike there.... I cant understand for the life of me why Hamas sends Qassam rockets into israel even though they are bloddily un accurate and same goes with hezbollah and Kayusha. I think in palestine there should be a rule that no policial party should have an armed wing so what happend between fatah and hamas in gaza doenst hapeen again. I think the most important issue right now is Israel and palestine one ie pre 1967 borders. There is a famous saying that everyone cares about palestine but not the palestinians. No, I definitely think that here, in this topic, the famous saying so far is everybody cares about palestinians, but not the Israelis. Yes Israel has been trated like the bad guy a lot. A LOT. Next point: Though several Arab countries have established "normal relations" there is still a lot of dislike... No kidding! Of course there is still a lot of dislike! "I cant understand for the life of me why Hamas sends Qassam rockets into israel even though they are bloddily un accurate and same goes with hezbollah and Kayusha." Look, I don't think you understand. Hamas are TERRORISTS. They send rockets into the general direction of a town in Israel and the rockets hit someone. They don't care who exactly it is they kill. Same with Hizbollah (TERRORISTS), etc. They get most of their weapons from Israel's friendly neighbours. "I think in palestine there should be a rule that no policial party should have an armed wing so what happend between fatah and hamas in gaza doenst hapeen again." I'm really, really trying not to be nasty here. This is not sarcasm. That is never going to happen. Hamas aren't nice kiddies. They are TERRORISTS. They are bad, bad people who KILL innocent Israeli men, women and children without discrimination because they are opposed to the state of Israel. They do not accept negotiation or diplomacy but just KILL people, use their own children as bloody shaheeds to blow themselves up in Israel. This should give you some sort of idea what they're like! Look at what Half/Dreaming said, the video about Mickey Mouse/Suicide Bombs. It should give you some idea what these people are like. They send their own children to do murder for them (this is why Israel have your condemmed aparthied wall) and brainwash them on TV that all Jews and Israeli's are evil. Please, watch the videos. These people kill innocent people and all the while tell themselves that it is god's work. Wake up! Try to understand even a tiny little bit about what's happening there before talking about it or promoting a petition about it.

[dragonoverlord]

I'm really, really trying not to be nasty here. This is not sarcasm. That is never going to happen. Hamas aren't nice kiddies. They are TERRORISTS. They are bad, bad people who KILL innocent Israeli men, women and children without discrimination because they are opposed to the state of Israel. They do not accept negotiation or diplomacy but just KILL people So what do you propose be done with them?

[A Humble Sinner]

So what do you propose be done with them? People who don't have a clue about them should wisen up, first of all. Ignarance is a huge barrier to any progress and everything you see eggs it on. Seeing as they are a terrorist organisation, they should be dealt as one. I wasn't proposing a solution in my earlier post, I just said that the things you said to do weren't plausible at all because Hamas aren't that big on the whole "friends" thing.. On a side note: Please don't start talking about international law and using it as a point anymore. You clearly know too little about it. You act as if everyone apart from Israel play by the rules, but the people you love so much don't - for instance every time there are efforts for peace with any of Israel's neighbours, such as a prisoner exchange, Lebanon and Palestine somehow forget about their end of the bargain, ignore all law and UN efforts, and everyone forgets about it. All I ask is that you stop seeing things in such black and white terms. Had a look at the video's yet?

[bro]

Holy Fucking poop, thank you A humble sinner, you know your stuff, and prevented me from dropping dead right here, from both laughter and anger at DragonOverLord's Ignorance.

[Indecent Exposure]

humble sinner your blatantly biased, as most palestinans are. I knew you were Israeli before I even looked at your location. Stop being so close minded and research both sides of the argument.

[A Humble Sinner]

humble sinner your blatantly biased, as most palestinans are. I knew you were Israeli before I even looked at your location. Stop being so close minded and research both sides of the argument. ALL of your statments - no, they weren't statements, they were just assumptions - in that post were completley and utterly false, were blindly made, and had no foundations in fact whatsoever. I have researched both sides of the argument, for your informaion. I am most definitley not close minded. I am not biased, and I don't see how i was. How exactly was I biased? Before you call me that please give me an example so I can discuss it in depth. Oh by the way, it's kind of an oxymoron to say "oh, narf, narf, I knew you were Israeli because, hmm, I dislike your opinion, so you must be an Israeli, because only an Israeli would think like that." That may or may not be your opinion (that's what it sounded like), but it's funny to see that right next to "you are biased". Also, who's to say I'm Israeli? I live in Israel. So? I could easily be a Palestinian or I could be Lebanese. Etc. That just goes to show that you are biased against Israelis, because you think only an Israeli could possibly have these (and my) views.

[dodobird]

but but but we are trying to end the occupation. It is the Hamas Islamofascists that do everything they can to prevent peace between Israel and Palestine, including killing their own people.

[Indecent Exposure]

Neither side of the border is doing great things, and niether is the international community Lets be honest.

[Neruo]

Here is a children's show, on Al Qasa TV, sponsored by Hamas. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lv3dv...elated&search= My favorite part is the "We will anhialate the Jews" part said by the little girl. They say that fanatical Islam is the basis for all civilization, and say they will run the world under Islamic leadership. This is Al Qasa, a Palestinian TV network, of the country you love so much. Here is the main Mickey Mouse character being killed by a Jew, then children saying they will expell the Jews from the land. http://youtube.com/watch?v=z9lL81QhiR8 Haha. You're so simple. Because a small portion of Palestine is FUCKING crazy, that means it is okay to give the entire country unequal rights and such? Fact of the matter is, a small portion of Palestine people, and a small portion of Israelis, are fucking assholes. Some Palestinian assholes would beat up an innocent Israeli, and some asshole Israeli soldiers don't lose sleep over shooting Palestine children. Just because both countries have a few Huge assholes in them, shouldn't most the majority of innocent people should suffer. And I am quite sure more innocent people live shit lives in Palestine than innocent people live a shit life in Israel, and That is what matters.

[Half/Dreaming]

Haha. You're so simple. Because a small portion of Palestine is FUCKING crazy, that means it is okay to give the entire country unequal rights and such? Fact of the matter is, a small portion of Palestine people, and a small portion of Israelis, are fucking assholes. Some Palestinian assholes would beat up an innocent Israeli, and some asshole Israeli soldiers don't lose sleep over shooting Palestine children. Just because both countries have a few Huge assholes in them, shouldn't most the majority of innocent people should suffer. And I am quite sure more innocent people live shit lives in Palestine than innocent people live a shit life in Israel, and That is what matters. No, because Palestine is run by those people. Because Palestinian TV networks promote that show. Its the government I'm worried about, not the average citizen.

[arby]

Here is a children's show, on Al Qasa TV, sponsored by Hamas. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lv3dv...elated&search= My favorite part is the "We will anhialate the Jews" part said by the little girl. They say that fanatical Islam is the basis for all civilization, and say they will run the world under Islamic leadership. This is Al Qasa, a Palestinian TV network, of the country you love so much. Here is the main Mickey Mouse character being killed by a Jew, then children saying they will expell the Jews from the land. http://youtube.com/watch?v=z9lL81QhiR8 And Christian fundamentalist shows arn't the same? Abeit, saying/doing different things to the non-believers?

[A Humble Sinner]

Haha. You're so simple. Because a small portion of Palestine is FUCKING crazy, that means it is okay to give the entire country unequal rights and such? Fact of the matter is, a small portion of Palestine people, and a small portion of Israelis, are fucking assholes. Some Palestinian assholes would beat up an innocent Israeli, and some asshole Israeli soldiers don't lose sleep over shooting Palestine children. Just because both countries have a few Huge assholes in them, shouldn't most the majority of innocent people should suffer. And I am quite sure , and That is what matters. When an Israeli soldier kills an Israeli Palestinian kid, he is dealt with as a MURDERER. When a terrorist carries out cold blooded, systematical butchery he is praised by Allah and is seen as a hero. The next comment is completely ridiculous. What makes you so sure that "more innocent people live shit lives in Palestine than innocent people live a shit life in Israel"? Innocent? Yes, I'm glad you realised that they are innocent. But that's not my point. My point is that the people in Israel are being terrorized and the people in Palestine aren't having suicide bombs dropped on them and Kassam rockets shot onto them. Israel is striving for peace, and unlike Palestine or many of it's orginizations, hah, they aren't continually commiting acts of terrorism against Palestinians. So yes, I think Isreali's are having a pretty shit time. But they are spared one thing: A terrorist govenment that, as Imran so eloquently pointed out in one of his other threads, the Palestinian people have voted for. Oh, and Neruo, just because a small portion of Israel is FUCKING crazy, that means it is okay to give the entire country unequal rights and inflict mass murder on them every day?

[Universal Mind]

I think Israel should be a democracy where Jews and Muslims are allowed to live together without a government run by a religion. Since there are two Israelis posting in this thread, please tell me to what extent that describes how Israel already is. I have a relative who lives in Israel, and she is the only Israeli I have ever talked to about the situation, so I wanted to get some more perspectives.

[dodobird]

I think Israel should be a democracy where Jews and Muslims are allowed to live together without a government run by a religion. Since there are two Israelis posting in this thread, please tell me to what extent that describes how Israel already is. I have a relative who lives in Israel, and she is the only Israeli I have ever talked to about the situation, so I wanted to get some more perspectives. I will try to answer to the best of my ability. There are several issues here. One is the issue of the occupation of the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip. These areas are occupied by Israel, and they are not officially part of the State of Israel, and because of that the Palestinians that live there are not Israeli citizens, and do not have many of the rights that Israelis have such as the right to vote to the Israeli parliament. This is a bad thing of course, but Israel has agreed to let the Palestinians have their own independent state in these areas, and when this happen it will solve this inequality. Now lets talk about the Israeli citizens: the Jew, Muslim, Christians and Druze that live inside the official State of Israel. These people have equal rights, with a few exceptions: Because of the problematic state of security of Israel, most Arab Israelis are excluded from some sensitive jobs, such as the Intelligence Agencies. The Druze Arabs are an exception to this because they are traditionally loyal to the state, and so they are trusted more then the Muslim and Christian Arabs; for example there are high Druze officers in the Israeli army. Unfortunately in Israel there is no clear devision of state and religion. There are a few Jewish religious laws, though they can be usually worked around; for example, work on Saturday is forbidden, Jews must be married, divorced and buried by the religious authorities, and a few other laws. But like I said this is not a major problem because these laws can be worked around. For example in the secular cities such as Tel-Aviv an Haifa many busynesses are open on Saturday without a problem; the responsibility to enforce this law is left to the municipal authorities, and they simply choose not enforce this law, other wise the mayor will be thrown out on the next municipal elections. In any case, Israel is a secular democracy except for these issues, which are annoying but quite minor. Israel is an exceptional country in that it was created a Home of the Jews. That means that all Jews can come and live in it. Any Jew can go to Israel and immediately become a citizen, and even get major support from the government for the first year or so. But what about non-Jew immigrants? The doors for them are closed unless they go through loads of bureaucracy and problems. It is very difficult for non Jew immigrants to get citizenship. Is that right? No, it's pretty fucked up, but you do have to take into consideration the purpose of the state of Israel, to be a haven for the Jews that have been persecuted for 2000 years. Well, I hope I managed to sum up these complex issues, but I feel this mostly skims the surface - there are hundreds of books and essays written on each one of them.

[A Humble Sinner]

I think Israel should be a democracy where Jews and Muslims are allowed to live together without a government run by a religion. Since there are two Israelis posting in this thread, please tell me to what extent that describes how Israel already is. I have a relative who lives in Israel, and she is the only Israeli I have ever talked to about the situation, so I wanted to get some more perspectives. Israel is a democracy. A lot of the time it is described as the only democracy in the Middle East (though some others have made progress), and it has good or in some cases better statistics on free speech, gay rights and womens rights, etc. than America. Any muslims who wish to live in Israel can do so, and Israeli citizenship is granted to any Muslims or Arabs (with some obvious exemptions that are present everywhere, of course). As a result, a lot of Arabs and Muslims are co-existing peacfully and happily in Israel. It's their choice. That's what I know at least, though Dodo's points about how hard it is is probably correct. They're allowed, at least, though if Dodo is right I think it should become a lot easier for them. The government in Israel isn't exactly "run by a religion" it is run like any other but it is, yes, a Jewish government because this is a Jewish state, just like Iran is Shi'a Islam state. But as Dodo said, it hardly interferes. I'm guessing when you said "I think Israel should be a democracy where Jews and Muslims are allowed to live together without a government run by a religion" you meant having a joint Muslim-Jewish government. I believe this was suggested early on when the decision of where to create The State of Israel was being made. A joint Palestinian-Israeli state was suggested, by the Israeli's even though this would seriously detract from the notion of a Jewish state that. Splitting Israel basically in half was also suggested, and this would have left the tiny Israeli half stranded right in the middle of all it's friendly neighbours. Again, not so great. Also rejected, by the Palestinians. I think that there should be a Jewish state. The jews definitley deserve a state of there own to live in. Just like There are a lot of Muslim states for Muslims. I think that any Palestinian who wants to should live there. But why can't Israel be a Jewish state, which they deserve, and allow anyone to live there (which they do) and Palestine be a Muslim state? I just think Israel should be allowed as a Jewish state and as a homeland for a race that has been prosecuted for 2000 years. The Jews should have a haven. Edit: Oh yeah, here you go. Quote from Wikipedia: "The population of Israel today is over seven million, with a large Jewish majority. While Israel is home to both Jews and Arabs, as well as a large number of Christian and other minority groups, it is the world's only Jewish state. Jerusalem is the capital, seat of government, and largest city. Due to its broad array of political rights and civil liberties, Israel is considered the only liberal democracy in the Middle East. Despite Israel's political problems and the vast sums it spends on military defense, Israel is an active competitor in the global market and is considered the most progressive in the region in terms of freedom of the press, business regulations, economic competition, and overall human development." You should read the article, it's quite good.

[Neruo]

When an Israeli soldier kills an Israeli Palestinian kid, he is dealt with as a MURDERER. When a terrorist carries out cold blooded, systematical butchery he is praised by Allah and is seen as a hero. That doesn't make one or the other right. Actually, luckily, I have the impression most 'terrorists' (palastine asshats) blow themselves up, so they sort themselves out. Still, what does it have to do with anything? The next comment is completely ridiculous. What makes you so sure that "more innocent people live shit lives in Palestine than innocent people live a shit life in Israel"? Innocent? Yes, I'm glad you realised that they are innocent. But that's not my point. Because just about Every Palestinian lives in the big open-aired prison they call their country. That includes innocents. Most Israelis live a (relatively) far more peaceful, wealthy life. You can't deny life in Palestine is shit-poor, fucked up, way less safe and free than Israel. Israel pushing their will, army and borders on Palestine doesn't help. As does idiots bombing Israel does make life very bad for some Israelis. My point is that the people in Israel are being terrorized and the people in Palestine aren't having suicide bombs dropped on them and Kassam rockets shot onto them. Israel is striving for peace, and unlike Palestine or many of it's orginizations, hah, they aren't continually commiting acts of terrorism against Palestinians. So yes, I think Isreali's are having a pretty shit time. But they are spared one thing: A terrorist govenment that, as Imran so eloquently pointed out in one of his other threads, the Palestinian people have voted for. Yeah. And when Germany felt like they were fucked in the ass in the past, they happily let their saviour, Hitler, 'make things better'. Do I think every German citizen was bad just for getting swept away by nation-wide retardation? No. Nor do I blame every single person in Palestine for voting on some retard that gave them the impressing he would right the wrongs. There are quite a lot of wrongs in Palestine. I couldn't really think of a worse country to live in, execpt for north-korea perhaps. Hell, I would rather live in America than in Palestine (). The point is, that bombing back the idiots that fuck up Palestine just makes the shit-poor, intellectually-derived, religiously-brainwashed more prone to get pissed at you more. As the Far more wealthy and powerful nation, Israel is acting pretty stupid. They should act Way more defensively, and bomb Palestine with food instead of with bombs, because in the end, that will cause less overall bloodshed. Oh, and Neruo, just because a small portion of Israel is FUCKING crazy, that means it is okay to give the entire country unequal rights and inflict mass murder on them every day? Did I say that? All I said was, that I believe no person deverses to be born and to live in a country as fucked up as Palestine. Hell, I could see everyone I know, including myself, to be turned into a terrorists, if they grew up in a fucked out country like Palestine, being brainwashed and having people you know get bombed. Acting all " 'they' are bombing us, so we bomb 'em back" really seems like fucking up humanity even more, to me.

[A Humble Sinner]

I think that yes, people in Palestine have a shit life. But the way you said it made me think that you were ignoring the suffering on the other side. I do not blame people for voting for Hamas, but it is a problem and it is ruining their country. At the moment, Israel can't "bomb them with food" because they are being urged on by Hamas closer and closer to complete Islamofascism and blinding them, making it impossible for any kind of peace (like Half/Dreaming's videos). Before any kind of peace happens they need to put Hamas out of the picture. The thing is, by now, it seems like the Palestinians want these people. And it seems they agree with Hamas. Which patently means that Palestine, as a state democratically run by terrorists, is the aggressor, and that Israel, as a non-terrorist state that doesn't butcher people in the name of God and is actually trying to make peace, is not the aggressor. Which also brings us back to the first point in this thread: Kick the Israeli's out of football because they are butchering the Palestinians unconditionally. And that we can see now, is false.

[dodobird]

Oh, go ahead and boot us out of football, but let us play socker

[Universal Mind]

Dodobird and A Humble Sinner, thank you for those very thorough explanations. That clears up a whole lot for me. When I left that post yesterday, there was originally a very long paragraphy about my opinion of the conflict, but I decided to delete it and get your take on what Israel is all about before I said anything more. I think I'm ready to say more now. I have a lot more interest in the situation now than I used to because I can see more clearly how the conflict is affecting the entire world. The long war between Jews and Muslims over the land where Israel is just might be the biggest problem in the world right now, and it is at the root of why so many Islamofascists want to make Americans as well as Israelis extinct because we are Israel's biggest ally. I even have a significant fear that the conflict might be what ends up resulting in a nuclear war that wipes out a huge percentage of the human race. Because of that and because war and terrorism suck period, I want to form a conclusion on what can be done about the situation. I know that it is incredibly complicated, but I think I'm significantly closer to having a strong opinion now. Now that you have explained the Israeli side, please tell me your understanding of why Muslims, particularly Palestinians, have such a problem with the current situation in Israel. If they are allowed to live there and have pretty much equal rights, which would probably become even closer to equal if not all the way if the terrorism would stop, then what exactly is their deal? Why are they so pissed? Why are so many of them are in favor of suicide bombings against Israelis? I know they want a "Palestinian state" there, but what exactly would be so different about that? Also, both of you said you think Israel should be a "Jewish state". You talked about how religion does not have that much to do with the way the government is run, but you still said you believe in having a Jewish state. Based on what I know so far, it seems that that idea might be a big part of the problem. Islamofascists suck and are the lowest creatures in the solar system and have no excuses for what they do, but I think there might be some better ways to deal with their irrationality. That very term "Jewish state" is of course going to seem incredibly sacrilegious to them and seem like ultimate blasphemy when you are talking about what they consider their "holy land". They want a "Muslim state", and as long as both sides keep their perspectives, the war will continue. That is why I think Israel should just be a "state" where Jews and Arabs live together equally and where religion has nothing to do with the government. It seems that that is the only solution. But I know that both of you know worlds more about the situation than I do, so please tell me how much sense you think that idea makes.

[Half/Dreaming]

Very interesting theory about nuclear war, Universal Mind. Its almost biblical, if you know the Armageddon story according to Revelations. As to your question why the Muslims want that piece of land, hate. I don't believe the land holds any real value to them. They just hate the Jews. As to your co-existence proposal, I'm not too sure. I mean Shi'as and Sunni Muslims kill eachother, so I'm not too sure Arabs and Jews could live nextdoor to eachother. The conflict between the two has been ongoing for over a millenium and a half. Healing that relationship just doesn't seem plausible.