Thread: Freedom of speec--, Oops.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

How could you possibly miss hypocrisy that is that enormous? Also, stop shutting your mind to the possibility that I want to understand your view. I have been on-point the whole way. You, on the other hand, keep running off on bizarre tangents about your mere assumptions of what I believe. I disagree with my government on a lot of things, and I am annoyed by the Pledge of Allegience and our national anthem. I have also burned a few flags because I think it is hilarious that people want to make it illegal to do that, so go ahead and drop the blind patriotism assumption right away.

Very well, I will take you more seriously, but only if you drop the assumption that I'm some disgruntled misfit that's out to get you or your country.

Alliance is not proof of liking, and the Hussein regime really went bad after that. His killings did climb into the hundreds of thousands, even with the mass graves alone. But that alone would not have been enough for the war. There were many reasons for it. We did not bully any countries to help us. We just highly encouraged them because what we are doing is in the interest of the entire world.

I see your point, my enemy's enemy is my friend, right? Nonetheless, one day you were supporting them, and the next you were calling them evil. The government of Iraq had committed many atrocities while they were still backed by the US. It's a bit hypocritical to suddenly denounce Iraq as evil just because it switched sides, but lets not get to caught up into this, as I said, Iraq was just an example. As for bullying, how about all that controversial pressure you put on countries like Pakistan in the days following 9/11? Or what about that whole "we hate France" phase when they declined to participate in the invasion of Iraq?

You do have enemies. The Islamofascists hate your guts and want you dead as dirt. But the protection I was mainly talking about was the protection against invaders who want to take over countries, which nobody would dare do to Canada now that the United States is so powerful. Look at how the world worked before we existed. Take over happened all the time. I can assure you that if dictators didn't believe we would tear them to shreds, Canada would be called something else right this very second.

A big part of the reason that islamic extremists dislike Canada is because we (mostly) support the US. Nonetheless, the US keeps blaming Canada as an entry point for terrorists, yet we managed to prevent a major homegrown terrorist attack that could have been on par with the London or Madrid bombings (http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/to...lot/index.html), whereas you failed to prevent 9/11. And as for invasions, Canada has never been invaded for the same reason that Australia or Greenland have never been invaded, because of its harsh climate and isolation. There is no country today that could launch and support an invasion of Canada (except the US). Come to think about it, one of the reasons that the US is so powerful is its geographical location in North America.

I have no idea what you are talking about there.

That was my original point. You accuse me of generalizing the situation that happened on the campus into something that applied to the whole country. Yet the States do the same thing all the time with events that happen abroad, I'm just saying that it's a two way street.

The soldiers were thinking about saving the world from the Nazis, not just the United States, and that thought had a lot to do with their morale. The Canada crack was a joke. It concerned the fact that you do a Hell of a lot more thinking about us than we do about you. An American comedian once said that she talked to a Canadian who asked her what Americans think of Canadians, and her response was, "We don't."

OK, well if you're talking about the Second World War, then that brings me back to one of my old arguments, which is that you can't justify your current political actions with past deeds. Everyone did what they could back then to fight for their values. The reason that canadians think so much more about americans than the opposite is that we feel your influence in our everyday lives, a lot. One of our prime ministers compared relations between our countries to "sleeping with an elephant. No matter how friendly and even-tempered is the beast, if I can call it that, one is affected by every twitch and grunt." So when the US goes off and does something stupid, it pisses us off.

I really wish people would keep that stuff to sports, but they don't. The truth is that people do despise my country for our power and wealth, just like they despise schools and individuals for their success. I really wish the entire world would adopt the systems we used to get us where we are. I don't want us to stand out as the most successful. I want everybody to be successful, and everybody can be.

People like those you stated do exist, here and abroad, but I am not one of them. I just mentioned a few reasons I have for being angry at your government, it's the interventionist position on foreign policies that your country takes that bothers me. Also, I have my qualms with America's internal politics, but it is not my place to debate them. However, I don't think that the US should be used as a model for other countries, there's a reason you're going through a recession and that your people are losing faith in their government.

No. I could do that, but I have not done that in this thread.

OK, then let's drop this point.

That shows how cautious we are about something as serious as war, contrary to much public opinion. But I agree that we were way too cautious about entering WWII and should have done it much earlier. I think pretty much all of our current military leaders agree with that.

The fact that you were overly cautious in WW2 doesn't necessarily mean that you aren't a little trigger happy in the 21st century.

I was saying that your earlier comments showed a lack of gratitude and that a few campus cops who probably make a little above minumum wage and would be working in diners if they got fired are not the people to judge the U.S. on. I gave you a better group of people to do that with and mentioned that our history is reason for you to show respect and not act like a calmer version of the guy in the taser video.

When I made those comments, I was thinking about America's present actions which irritated me, not every action it has taken since its inception. When you think of Britain today, do you see an ally or an oppressive enemy?

How many different ways are you going to misinterpret my point? I have listed your offensive comments, which I have argued are false.

Please list them again, just to make sure. Be certain that there is only one possible way to interpret them.

I majorly disagree with you on that. The arms race in the midst of communism was the undoing of the Soviet Union. Ronald Reagan gets the MVP award, not Usama Bin Laden. BL just gets a participation ribbon.

OK, here we have a difference of opinion, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. I believe that the Soviet Afghan War (which was pretty much the Soviet equivalent of the Vietnam War) severely depleted public morale and tolerance for the USSR. It had a major impact on the break-up of the Soviet Union. In any case, do you understand my point about how "saving the world" is subjective?

Oh, you haven't used any insults, so I can't imagine why I would use any. You are so righteous even though you are not. Are you a Baptist preacher by any chance? I am tired of correcting you on your misconceptions about my WWII point, so I am not going to do it again here. You know what it is by now.

OK, for the sake of argument, I'm going to ignore all that unproductive sarcasm. It's not like I hate America and its people, nor am I trying to dictate what is right and what is wrong. I'm a perfectly reasonable guy that is open to other people's point of view, as long as they don't force it on others. If I met you in the streets tomorrow, I would shake your hand and be more than happy to talk with you, not go on some rant about how I dislike America. Your country isn't making too many friends right now, and your foreign politics are pissing off a lot of people. Doesn't it bother you that people around the world have such a negative opinion of americans? Wouldn't your time be better spent trying to fix your public image rather than infuriating people further with your one-sided view of things (referring to your country, not you)? But that's America's problem, it speaks but it doesn't listen, which is pretty much the stereotype for americans, loud and obnoxious. If it's not the american way, it's not the right way.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Very well, I will take you more seriously, but only if you drop the assumption that I'm some disgruntled misfit that's out to get you or your country.

When in the Hell did I say that?

Originally Posted by Spartiate

I see your point, my enemy's enemy is my friend, right? Nonetheless, one day you were supporting them, and the next you were calling them evil. The government of Iraq had committed many atrocities while they were still backed by the US. It's a bit hypocritical to suddenly denounce Iraq as evil just because it switched sides, but lets not get to caught up into this, as I said, Iraq was just an example. As for bullying, how about all that controversial pressure you put on countries like Pakistan in the days following 9/11? Or what about that whole "we hate France" phase when they declined to participate in the invasion of Iraq?

As I illustrated, sometimes we ally with our enemies. That does not mean we believe in how they do things. Of course we put pressure on countries to to the right thing for the world. Bullies put pressure on people to do things for selfish reasons. We had the safety of the entire world, mainly the western hemisphere, in mind. It's like putting pressure on witnesses to testify. It is moral, and it does not qualify as "bullying".

Originally Posted by Spartiate

A big part of the reason that islamic extremists dislike Canada is because we (mostly) support the US. Nonetheless, the US keeps blaming Canada as an entry point for terrorists, yet we managed to prevent a major homegrown terrorist attack that could have been on par with the London or Madrid bombings (http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/to...lot/index.html), whereas you failed to prevent 9/11. And as for invasions, Canada has never been invaded for the same reason that Australia or Greenland have never been invaded, because of its harsh climate and isolation. There is no country today that could launch and support an invasion of Canada (except the US). Come to think about it, one of the reasons that the US is so powerful is its geographical location in North America.

Dictators would not dare invade any of the countries you mentioned mainly because they know we would blow them off the face of the map if they did it. I didn't say there are not other factors involved.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

That was my original point. You accuse me of generalizing the situation that happened on the campus into something that applied to the whole country. Yet the States do the same thing all the time with events that happen abroad, I'm just saying that it's a two way street.

I am completely lost on your point on this.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

OK, well if you're talking about the Second World War, then that brings me back to one of my old arguments, which is that you can't justify your current political actions with past deeds. Everyone did what they could back then to fight for their values. The reason that canadians think so much more about americans than the opposite is that we feel your influence in our everyday lives, a lot. One of our prime ministers compared relations between our countries to "sleeping with an elephant. No matter how friendly and even-tempered is the beast, if I can call it that, one is affected by every twitch and grunt." So when the US goes off and does something stupid, it pisses us off.

How many times do I need to tell you that I was not trying to justify current actions with past deeds? Will twenty more times do the trick?

You might hate us, but you need us. I hope that when Iraq and Afghanistan evolve into the countries they have the potential of being, and the region is no longer such a hopeless Hell hole breeding ground for desparate losers who want to die to kill innocents and the governments are obviously far less dangerous than the old regimes, then Canadians will understand why we did what we did. Until then, I guess you are just going to be pissed off at us and too many of you will never show a spec of gratitude for the trade and protection we offer you or what we have done for you in the past. Bitch all you want, but show some understanding for the insane nightmare we are facing and some respect for what we have done and do for you now.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

People like those you stated do exist, here and abroad, but I am not one of them. I just mentioned a few reasons I have for being angry at your government, it's the interventionist position on foreign policies that your country takes that bothers me. Also, I have my qualms with America's internal politics, but it is not my place to debate them. However, I don't think that the US should be used as a model for other countries, there's a reason you're going through a recession and that your people are losing faith in their government.

Our intervention is necessary, like it has been in the past. We are not in a recession, and one country's recession is another country's paradise period. We are still the wealthiest country in the world. I invite you to join our way of doing things so you can have a wealthy country too. I wish the whole world would.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Please list them again, just to make sure. Be certain that there is only one possible way to interpret them.

You first said my WWII point was meant to justify current actions. Then you later said it was meant to be used as an analogy to current situations. Both interpretations are false. The point was that you showed a disrespect and lack of gratitude concerning my country when you called it a "bully" and later talked about burning flags and other things. Criticism and discussion are fine, but you get a little carried away with your middle finger in the air. I haven't lost any sleep over it, but that stuff really does hurt people who have had their faces blown off so they could protect the world you live in.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

OK, here we have a difference of opinion, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. I believe that the Soviet Afghan War (which was pretty much the Soviet equivalent of the Vietnam War) severely depleted public morale and tolerance for the USSR. It had a major impact on the break-up of the Soviet Union. In any case, do you understand my point about how "saving the world" is subjective?

That of course played some kind of role in the big picture, but it was not as significant as you are making it out to be. Even if it were, the result was inadvertent. The United States had the specific goal of stopping Nazi world conquest, not to merely drive Nazis out of the United States. So your analogy leaves out my issue. People from my country went through Hell to save your planet. That is why I am saying you should show some respect. If you read anything else into my point on that, you are reading incorrectly.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

OK, for the sake of argument, I'm going to ignore all that unproductive sarcasm. It's not like I hate America and its people, nor am I trying to dictate what is right and what is wrong. I'm a perfectly reasonable guy that is open to other people's point of view, as long as they don't force it on others. If I met you in the streets tomorrow, I would shake your hand and be more than happy to talk with you, not go on some rant about how I dislike America. Your country isn't making too many friends right now, and your foreign politics are pissing off a lot of people. Doesn't it bother you that people around the world have such a negative opinion of americans? Wouldn't your time be better spent trying to fix your public image rather than infuriating people further with your one-sided view of things (referring to your country, not you)? But that's America's problem, it speaks but it doesn't listen, which is pretty much the stereotype for americans, loud and obnoxious. If it's not the american way, it's not the right way.

While you are at it, please ignore your own unproductive sarcasm about burning flags and stuff. We are not going to drop doing the right thing just because it is not popular. I am so glad the current administration does not think like that. What needs to be done needs to be done, and it is not about a popularity contest. With Bill Clinton, you would have had much more luck with that. The disrespect we have right now mostly comes from jealousy that is pathetically in the place of gratitude. I have no sympathy or respect for it whatsoever. Most of it is just a junior high mentality assholishness parade that makes people feel self important. It is stupid and pathetic. I am not sure how far into that mentality you are, so I won't make any assumptions beyond what I have said. I will just tell you for future reference that the way you approach the subject of our foreign policy concerning a very complex and freaky nightmare we have on our hands can have the potential of making it look like that is what you are in this for, so stay respectful and discuss the stuff rationally, and we won't feel the need to say things that you might consider patriotic bragging.