Thread: Why Terrorism Exists

Originally Posted by R.D.735

Applying the label of 'terrorist organization' to the Hussein regime for its transgressions demands applying it to regimes who are guilty of similar transgressions, which has not been done. Not applying the label equally creates understandable doubt that terrorism is what is being fought.

It should be applied to all of them.

Originally Posted by R.D.735

Several governments did support the assertions of the US, others did not. We can't, however, ignore our intelligence failures because other nations committed the same errors, especially when there were significant economic and political interests involved to distort intelligence. Those who are responsible for those failures should be held accountable.

It was not about simply joining a band wagon. The U.S., five other governments, and the U.N. did their own intelligence gathering and all came to the same conclusion.

Originally Posted by R.D.735

The vast majority of terrorism in Iraq is Iraqis fighting Iraqis. Call them what you will, but they are certainly not a global terror network like Al Qaeda. From the perspective of that terrorist organization, the vacuum in Iraq does accomplish what you have stated, drawing a foreign enemy into death like a moth to a flame. Killing Iraqi terrorists is our aim in Iraq, but sapping the strength of the US is the aim of Al Qaeda. Only in the optimistic projection of a distant democracy is Al Qaeda thwarted, but its goals are currently being met with disturbing regularity, while the only effort necessary is to loudly denounce the US from afar.

Al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations are being sucked into the vacuum. A lot of the other fighting is what happens when an oppressed nation suddenly starts adapting to democracy. Our country is still running relatively just fine even though we are engaged in war.

Originally Posted by R.D.735

If we refuse to see past the vanquished Hussein regime, we may find ourselves blinded to our present quandary. Saddam was evil, certainly, but so is Al Qaeda, as is the Saudi regime, the North Korean regime, and the Iranian regime. Pakistan may soon join them, with nuclear weapons in tow. If we do not adapt to our current quandary, those other evils will continue to strengthen and threaten not only our country but the nation we are trying to build.

The Iraq list of factors was longer than the lists for those other countries. I think some of the ones you named might be getting vistited by us in upcoming years.

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

I still can't believe that you believe that. Like they don't have an unlimited supply to draw on. Terrorists from all over the world, flocking to Iraq, where all the American-killing action is...yea, right.

They are not coming from all over the Islamofascist world? Uh, yeah they are.

There are not an infinite number of people in the world. The stream of idiots willing to go to Iraq and get themselves killed so they can bang virgins cannot keep coming forever.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

They are not coming from all over the Islamofascist world? Uh, yeah they are.

There are not an infinite number of people in the world. The stream of idiots willing to go to Iraq and get themselves killed so they can bang virgins cannot keep coming forever.

So, we've got to keep this vaccuum sucking them up indefinitely? Or at some point will they be all cleaned up and we can quit?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

There are not an infinite number of people in the world. The stream of idiots willing to go to Iraq and get themselves killed so they can bang virgins cannot keep coming forever.

Unfortunately, that's just not true.

...at all. I'd figure you to know better than that, by now, UM.

The "stream of idiots" that you are talking about spans more than a single generation. It is an ideology that we are fighting, not a generation. As long as the teachings of radical Islam can be passed from father/mother to son/daughter, then, yes, that finite stream that you are talking about is, definitely, indefinite.

That has been my main argument against this "military policy toward Islamic extremists", since the beginning. Our military (and obviously many Americans) looks at this as if we are fighting an established military - as if there is an accounted-for number of troops and, once we get them all out of the way, it will be all over.

That's not the reality of this situation.

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

So, we've got to keep this vaccuum sucking them up indefinitely? Or at some point will they be all cleaned up and we can quit?

They will be down to much lower level, and we will cease to fight because all of the other goals of the war will have been met. Remember, the war is not about any one thing.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

Unfortunately, that's just not true.

...at all. I'd figure you to know better than that, by now, UM.

The "stream of idiots" that you are talking about spans more than a single generation. It is an ideology that we are fighting, not a generation. As long as the teachings of radical Islam can be passed from father/mother to son/daughter, then, yes, that finite stream that you are talking about is, definitely, indefinite.

That has been my main argument against this "military policy toward Islamic extremists", since the beginning. Our military (and obviously many Americans) looks at this as if we are fighting an established military - as if there is an accounted-for number of troops and, once we get them all out of the way, it will be all over.

That's not the reality of this situation.

When the mainstream of the remaining generation is in elementary school, we will have accomplished our ultimate goal in our part of the fight. The idea is that Iraq and Afghanistan will be strong democracies by then, and their socioeconomic situations and influences on the surrounding areas will have taken care of a great deal of the problems that breed terrorism. Hopefully, the governments of Iraq and Afghanistan in the future will move in and clean up the surrounding countries that are still garbage so we don't have to. That is how we fight the ideology and the stream of idiots that subscribe to it. So it just is true... at all. I figured you would know that by now.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

So it just is true... at all. I figured you would know that by now.

Ugh. I dunno why I would have expected any more than the "No, You shut up!" response from you.

Anyway. Right. Like racism in America has been "completely stamped out, because the generations have evolved?" You act as though ideologies don't transcend geographical boundaries; as if there aren't radical Islamist cells in many different parts of the world; as if the fight would end after a victory in Iraq. I was going off of your final statement, which I still don't see to be true. I think you give their passion too little credit, in that it couldn't possibly endure passed even a mainstream paradigm shift (assuming such a thing would even happen). The only point that I was arguing was your point that that stream of individuals willing to lay down everything for that cause was finite. I believe that is no more plausible than saying that Christianity could be wiped out by some foreign entity coming in and trying abolish Christianity by military force.

Do you honestly think that Islamic extremism will just stop? That, eventually, these people will either die out (since, to use your words "
There are not an infinite number of people in the world. The stream of idiots willing to go to Iraq and get themselves killed so they can bang virgins cannot keep coming forever"), or they will just decide that they're religion doesn't mean enough to them to keep fighting, and give up? That, even when the mainstream of the next generation is in kindergarten, they will not continue to recruit on a level sufficient enough to keep their revolution alive? That the entire radical Islamist movement is making their way, even now, to Iraq to fight, erasing themselves from the rest of the world? Sorry, despite your rhetoric, I see no evidence that this is true.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

Ugh. I dunno why I would have expected any more than the "No, You shut up!" response from you.

Oh, you must have read my entire post. That short quote was all I said, and you even paraphrased it correctly. Now let's try to have this discussion without insulting each other personally or even talking about each other at all, moderator.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

Anyway. Right. Like racism in America has been "completely stamped out, because the generations have evolved?" You act as though ideologies don't transcend geographical boundaries; as if there aren't radical Islamist cells in many different parts of the world; as if the fight would end after a victory in Iraq. I was going off of your final statement, which I still don't see to be true. I think you give their passion too little credit, in that it couldn't possibly endure passed even a mainstream paradigm shift (assuming such a thing would even happen). The only point that I was arguing was your point that that stream of individuals willing to lay down everything for that cause was finite. I believe that is no more plausible than saying that Christianity could be wiped out by some foreign entity coming in and trying abolish Christianity by military force.

I didn't say it could be completely stamped out. Read again. I said it could be taken down to a much lower level, just like racism in America has been taken down to a level where it does not require that the National Guard escort black people to their college classes, black people are required to sit in the backs of buses, interracial couples are guaranteed to be violently attacked if they hold hands in public, and there are separate bathrooms for blacks. I also said that the idea is that Iraq and Afghanistan will eventually be at a point where they can handle the remaining and much smaller levels themselves. That sort of thing can happen when you are dealing with a finite supply of terrorists and a diminishing terrorist breeding social climate.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Oh, you must have read my entire post. That short quote was all I said, and you even paraphrased it correctly. Now let's try to have this discussion without insulting each other personally or even talking about each other at all, moderator.

Jesus. So personal. Sorry you felt my post to be such an attack on you, UM. The reason I paraphrased what I did was because I felt that little mockery of what I said was really childish, and unwarranted.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I didn't say it could be completely stamped out. Read again. I said it could be taken down to a much lower level, just like racism in America has been taken down to a level where it does not require that the National Guard escort black people to their college classes, black people are required to sit in the backs of buses, interracial couples are guaranteed to be violently attacked if they hold hands in public, and there are separate bathrooms for blacks. I also said that the idea is that Iraq and Afghanistan will eventually be at a point where they can handle the remaining and much smaller levels themselves. That sort of thing can happen when you are dealing with a finite supply of terrorists and a diminishing terrorist breeding social climate.

The major difference is the hatred that these Islamic extremists employ is much deeper than that of the white supremists of the old days. How many suicide murders do you know of that took place in the KKK? How many terrorists are left? How many terrorists are left around the globe? How fast are the Iraqi's stepping up to take control of their region? How well are they doing on their benchmarks? These are all rhetorical questions, of course. If you'd like to answer them, go ahead. But, honestly, I regret getting re-involved because I doubt this conversation will take us anywhere but to where I, personally, would not like to go, judging by the above.

I do wonder, though, how you can look at the number of terrorists as finite, when a great many of the terrorists we shall face, in the future, most likely haven't even been born yet. Aside from that particular point, just forget I even said anything.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

Jesus. So personal. Sorry you felt my post to be such an attack on you, UM. The reason I paraphrased what I did was because I felt that little mockery of what I said was really childish, and unwarranted.

Direct insults concerning my level of knowledge tend to stir up at least a little bit of my sarcasm.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

The major difference is the hatred that these Islamic extremists employ is much deeper than that of the white supremists of the old days. How many suicide murders do you know of that took place in the KKK? How many terrorists are left? How many terrorists are left around the globe? How fast are the Iraqi's stepping up to take control of their region? How well are they doing on their benchmarks? These are all rhetorical questions, of course. If you'd like to answer them, go ahead. But, honestly, I regret getting re-involved because I doubt this conversation will take us anywhere but to where I, personally, would not like to go, judging by the above.

I do wonder, though, how you can look at the number of terrorists as finite, when a great many of the terrorists we shall face, in the future, most likely haven't even been born yet. Aside from that particular point, just forget I even said anything.

No need to get upset. I just tried to steer you toward talking about the issues and not what bothers you about me personally. The latter will only bring out my sarcasm. The peace offering still stands.

The terrorists are far more hateful than the KKK (which shows just how incredibly serious of a situation we are dealing with), but that has a lot to do with the fact that so much of the Middle East now is a much worse Hell hole than Mississippi and Alabama were in the 20th century. The idea is to move toward making the Middle East not such a Hell hole by setting in motion democracies in the direction of being centers of prosperity and education that can become strong enough to reshape the rest of the Middle East. Through that process, the terrorism breeding climate clears up a great deal. In the mean time, we suck terrorist minded nut cases into our vacuum so there will be far fewer than otherwise. How much progress have we made already? The surge seems to have done a lot of good. We recently had a week of no U.S. casualties, and there are many places in Iraq that are far safer than before and where the citizens have done a lot to turn against the terrorists. It looks like good progress at this point. But it will be probably another generation before we start really seeing the kind of progress I am talking about.