Thread: In god we trust

Originally Posted by CymekSniper

I honestly don't see why anybody cares at all. Simply saying in god we trust doesn't hurt a damn person. There are bigger issues at hand.

Exactly. I may be Atheist, but as for money? I don't give a fuck either way, really. But if they started writing other things on it, I might consider some kind of opposition to it.

Originally Posted by Seismosaur

But if they started writing other things on it, I might consider some kind of opposition to it.

Yeah, like "kill the jews" or something. Now that is what I call controversy.

Originally Posted by NeAvO

I'm behind you 100%

No, you have to go first.

Originally Posted by Matt5678

a little off topic but on the Christmas thing....

alot of people who are not Christians celebrate Christmas. Christmas has really become less of a Christian Holiday and more of an American Tradition. What do you think the government shouldn’t do?....i mean, its not like their putting a crucifix on the white house lawn or anything

It is on topic because it is a good analogy.

Christmas is CHRIST... MASS. It was ripped off of other religions, but it is a Christian holiday celebrating Jesus' fictitious birthday. That is why Christian manger scenes, Christian hymnals, and three wise men style gift giving are involved. Even if Christianity were all about paganism, it would still be about religious endorsement. The government should stay the Hell out of it, and any time the government promotes a religion or engages as an entity in a religious ritual it is just like putting a crucifix on the White House lawn or the top of the U.S. capitol building. They should never be given a millimeter in that direction.

Originally Posted by Mes Tarrant

Muslims aren't going to be putting Allah anything on paper currency because if they are ever the majority, by that time paper currency will have vanished.

Even if that is true, my hypothetical still illustrates the unfair nature of government endorsement of religion. That was the point of my logic.

Originally Posted by Mes Tarrant

*third attempt to introduce logic into this thread*

I'll take your word for it, but an explanation for the fairness of government preferentially endorsed religion would be much closer to sufficiently convincing.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Even if Christianity were all about paganism, it would still be about religious endorsement. The government should stay the Hell out of it, and any time the government promotes a religion or engages as an entity in a religious ritual it is just like putting a crucifix on the White House lawn or the top of the U.S. capitol building. They should never be given a millimeter in that direction.

Yes, you're right about that, but do you think it should be a holiday (like government workers having the day off, etc)? I think it would be harder to get rid of that than to get the god-words off the money.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I'll take your word for it, but an explanation for the fairness of government preferentially endorsed religion would be much closer to sufficiently convincing.

Sorry, what?

My argument is this: fair or unfair, it's not worth our time because it's fading away on its own...

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

Yes, you're right about that, but do you think it should be a holiday (like government workers having the day off, etc)? I think it would be harder to get rid of that than to get the god-words off the money.

There should be a holiday because of the tradition of getting the day off, but the government's endorsement of it should be completely separate from religious elements. The government should not label it "Christmas Holiday". It should be "Winter Holiday" or something like that. Also, the government should keep crosses and manger images and other such things off their buildings and other property. I think the government should get every spec of religion off itself to the point of being spotless.

Originally Posted by Mes Tarrant

Sorry, what?

My argument is this: fair or unfair, it's not worth our time because it's fading away on its own...

You also said you were attempting to "introduce" logic into this discussion, which would mean nobody else has used any. The fairness of government endorsed religion has been a relevant and major part of the discussion, and I have made points about it and so have others. So if you do not think our arguments have been logical, I request an explanation.

Passing a bill to discontinue government endorsement of religious notions would not be expensive or time consuming if the government did what it should do. However, I think it is something that will never happen and that would involve a major fight and possibly a civil war before it actually did happen, but it is still something the government should do in theory. I am talking from a moral standpoint and not from a standpoint of believing that the masses should go to the mat and die for it. I also think the entire world should be democratized, but that does not mean I think my government should go out and single handedly liberate the entire world. I am talking about morality and ideal scenarios.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Christmas is CHRIST... MASS. It was ripped off of other religions, but it is a Christian holiday celebrating Jesus' fictitious birthday. That is why Christian manger scenes, Christian hymnals, and three wise men style gift giving are involved. Even if Christianity were all about paganism, it would still be about religious endorsement. The government should stay the Hell out of it, and any time the government promotes a religion or engages as an entity in a religious ritual it is just like putting a crucifix on the White House lawn or the top of the U.S. capitol building. They should never be given a millimeter in that direction.

Are you saying that putting a Christmas tree in the white house is the same as putting a giant crucifix on top of the capital building? Would it be better if it was called a “holiday tree”?
Just because an old tradition has pagan and Christian influences does that mean that the government cant turn it into a holiday symbol that relates to everyone? Take Easter for example, the earliest colored eggs were pagan rituals, and as Christianity came about, it became a Christian ritual too. so does this mean the white house should cancel its annual Easter egg festivities? Now of course this is different than placing a manger scene in front of the treasury building. We shouldn’t have any obvious religious symbols in government decorations. But these are just harmless traditions that almost everyone loves and looks forward to.

i dont mean to sound condescending and I respect your views

Originally Posted by Matt5678

Are you saying that putting a Christmas tree in the white house is the same as putting a giant crucifix on top of the capital building? Would it be better if it was called a “holiday tree”?
Just because an old tradition has pagan and Christian influences does that mean that the government cant turn it into a holiday symbol that relates to everyone? Take Easter for example, the earliest colored eggs were pagan rituals, and as Christianity came about it became a Christian ritual too. so does this mean the white house should cancel its annual Easter egg festivities? Now of course this is different than placing a manger scene in front of the treasury building. We shouldn’t have any obvious religious symbols in government decorations. But these are just harmless traditions that almost everyone loves and looks forward to.

i dont mean to sound condescending and I respect your views

I don't have a problem with just a tree, but I think the government should call it a "holiday tree" or something similar. I'm a left wing fanatic like that. (not that you suggesed that )

I do not complain about religious holidays, really. Like it or not, religion is part of a country's culture and directly influences society. To me, Christmas is just like Halloween: a thematic occasion, but not something that has religious meaning or anything.

But, as I said, if "God doesn't exist" was written on the bills instead of "In god we trust", it would also be considered unfair and disregarding to people's beliefs (which is of course true). But how is "In god we trust" any better than "God doesn't exist"? People just care about their beliefs and don't stop to think about the ones that disagree with those beliefs.

The main problem that created all this was the influence the church used to have on the government throughout history. We cannot change history, but we can change dollar bills. Brazilian money also has references to god ("Deus seja louvado" which translates to "God be praised") and it is something I completely disagree with. On this mindset, next thing the governement will do will be to outlaw atheist or polytheist because they are minorities. Need I not to say how minorities always lack dueful respect and concern - yet again I'm talking about homosexuality. As of now, preaching against homosexuals, calling them blind and ignorant is not only completely ok, but happens all the time and promotes prejudice.

Democracy is based on the vote, and through that, public opinion becomes majority's opinion. Democracy does not work.

People deserve the right to be able to 'free thought' (although that is a discussion on its own), althought the bill does state in god we trust it could be argued that your view on this is dependant upon your definition of the word god.
But regardess of your view on religion you surely must beleif in the right to beleive in whatever god you desire and the right to intellectual freedom.

And thus 'we' (as humans, as I am not american myself) should be able to reach into our wallets without being constantly being presented with a statement that has no personal significance to many of us.

The bill has no real value of its own, it merely is a physical reference of money itself, a form of currency should be free from religious views.

But on the subject of holidays, I'm one to beleive that holidays should also be free from religious propoganda, the celebration on the 25th of july existed before christ and thus should after him. All biblical references should be rightfully removed, christians can stil celebrate their holidays their way, but we should be able to celebrate 'ours' our way.

I doubt I've added much to this convo but have decided to post anyway.
Happy dreaming, Ducky.

I think "In God we trust." Is more of a wish than anything. Maybe a prayer that some how the money will keep its value even though the government prints more and more dollars nonstop.

Originally Posted by NeAvO

I'm behind you 100%

You should know what the penalty for regicide is >_>...

I believe "In God we Trust" was placed on U.S. currency during the cold war to show that we as americans are very religious as "competition" against the Soviet Union. Hmm, as a matter..it's a fact.

did the soviets add "in god we do not trust" to their bills?