Thread: The conscious perception of aniamls

Originally Posted by Howie

They know not what they do on any conscious level.

That's the part we don't agree on.

The rest of it is just philosophical.

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

That's the part we don't agree on.

The rest of it is just philosophical.

Philisophical, yaa, I guess.
Even though animals do not have the smae brain functionality we do. Better worded the same physical brain we do.
So nothing of what I had just posted holds NO weight to it, in your mind?

I am not trying to strip people's relationship with their pets. I love animals to death <-- wrong choice for deer ) I really do.

So let me ask another question.
(Add in whatever animal you have)
Do you think that if you went away for two days. Then I walked in your home (shreeek!) that, If I showed affection to your pet and fed it and pet it. Then I was then there on a consistent basis, that the animal would then be happy or not happy?

I foresee these counter arguments:
▫ The animal, your animal or pet, being mean to strangers.
Is this not a conditioned response? Is the animal also mean to uncle bob? -Familiarity is what I am pointing to here. That and training if applicable.

▫ They show animals mourn and are sad when alone and owners are away during work.
Me too! Another conditioned response. Do I feel they enjoy company, yes? Yours yes, anybodies, yes - in time. It is to make THEM feel better.
Do you think they consciously perceive and use foresight to make the decisions they make? (I am lying here next to my master to make THEM feel better)

Us humans are the same way. We just have a much longer emotional curve to hurdle.

Originally Posted by Howie

Then I walked in your home (shreeek!)

You got that right!

JK, you can come over if you want to.

Originally Posted by Howie

that, If I showed affection to your pet and fed it and pet it. Then I was then there on a consistent basis, that the animal would then be happy or not happy?

Well, some of my pets would like you right away, some would take more time to get to know you...? I don't get the point.

Originally Posted by Howie

I foresee these counter arguments:
▫ The animal, your animal or pet, being mean to strangers.

None of my animals are mean. My dogs are useless as watch-dogs, unless you wanted to be alerted to every squirrel and chipmunk, and have all strangers licked to death.

Originally Posted by Howie

▫ They show animals mourn and are sad when alone and owners are away during work.
Me too! Another conditioned response. Do I feel they enjoy company, yes? Yours yes, anybodies, yes - in time. It is to make THEM feel better.
Do you think they consciously perceive and use foresight to make the decisions they make? (I am lying here next to my master to make THEM feel better)

All I'm saying is that you could make the same
Us humans are the same way. We just have a much longer emotional curve to hurdle.

I don't get your point really. I think everything you are saying could be applied to humans as well, regarding doing things that make you feel good; and at the end you seem to agree with that too.

If you are saying that animals don't feel emotions, I think you are wrong, that's all.

Emotional responses come from a primitive part of the brain.

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

You got that right!
JK, you can come over if you want to.

OK, What time. Swanson for dinner?

Well, some of my pets would like you right away, some would take more time to get to know you...? I don't get the point.

My point is, would they miss YOU?
▼

None of my animals are mean. My dogs are useless as watch-dogs, unless you wanted to be alerted to every squirrel and chipmunk, and have all strangers licked to death.

I don't get your point really. I think everything you are saying could be applied to humans as well, regarding doing things that make you feel good; and at the end you seem to agree with that too.

If you are saying that animals don't feel emotions, I think you are wrong, that's all.

Emotional responses come from a primitive part of the brain.

No that is not at all what I am saying. I used "emotional attachment." I also have compared consciousness to that of us humans.
Sure they have emotions.
All I can do is reiterate or restructure my same questions. Maybe if you realize where I am going with the entire scope of my thoughts, then they may make more sense. Not from a lack of your understanding, more so my wording.

Howie, I agree with Moonbeam. All your examples can be applied the same way to people. So by your logic, kids are not capable of emotional attachment either? They are attached to us only because we feed and house them and that is all? Think about what you are saying...

Originally Posted by Howie

Do you think they consciously perceive and use foresight to make the decisions they make?

YES, they most certainly do. What about dogs used in police or guard work? Dogs are definitely capable of assessing a situation, predicting the outcome of certain actions, and making decisions on how to act in such a situation. Yes, these animals are specially trained, but this proves that they are definitely capable of this type of thought. If by their species they weren't capable, no amount of training in the world could make them do it. Some dogs even go above and beyond what they were trained to do, and do things a human would never think a dog had the foresight or perception to do.

I'm sad that you haven't had the type of relationship with an animal enough to prove to you that they feel the emotional attachment of love and companionship. But I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they do. You can't do what I do for a living and not KNOW that animals desire companionship or love their owners, and not only because they feed them.

Originally Posted by Burns

YES, they most certainly do. What about dogs used in police or guard work? Dogs are definitely capable of assessing a situation, predicting the outcome of certain actions, and making decisions on how to act in such a situation. Yes, these animals are specially trained, but this proves that they are definitely capable of this type of thought. If by their species they weren't capable, no amount of training in the world could make them do it. Some dogs even go above and beyond what they were trained to do, and do things a human would never think a dog had the foresight or perception to do.

Could you elaborate on how police or guard dogs "conciously percieve and use foresight to make the desicions"?

Police dogs run for the scent.. They sniff for people and drugs and bark if they find them.. Where is the concious foresight here?


Equally Guard Dogs literally just bark loudly and attack anyone they don't recognise.. I fail to see the concious foresight.


I'm quite sure you could programme a computer to fulfill these jobs fine.. just as you would train a dog.

Originally Posted by Carôusoul

Could you elaborate on how police or guard dogs "predict the outcome of certain actions" and "Make decisions on how to act in the situation"?

Well obviously I don't have a specific example, but these dogs can assess a dangerous situation and predict what the "bad guy" may do, and therefore act accordingly. Like I said in my post above, there have been stories about dogs acting in such a way in an emergency-type situation that they weren't trained to do, which can mean they truly do understand what is going on in the situation and has the consciousness to act accordingly, without being trained to do so.

Originally Posted by Burns

Well obviously I don't have a specific example, but these dogs can assess a dangerous situation and predict what the "bad guy" may do, and therefore act accordingly. Like I said in my post above, there have been stories about dogs acting in such a way in an emergency-type situation that they weren't trained to do, which can mean they truly do understand what is going on in the situation and has the consciousness to act accordingly, without being trained to do so.

Ok.. I sort of understand this.. however examples really are key to working it out..

They will act minorly different to how they have been trained, but i guarantee it is essentially always an act of protecting themselves or someone else, this is hardwired into their instincts. It doesn't require conscious foresight, although it would be nice to think it did.

Originally Posted by Carôusoul

protecting someone else is hardwired into their instincts

How?

Originally Posted by Carôusoul

Ok.. I sort of understand this.. however examples really are key to working it out..

ok, here are some examples - these are all pit bull stories, but you get the idea:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdY9Z5ub9xw

Originally Posted by Burns

Howie, I agree with Moonbeam. All your examples can be applied the same way to people. So by your logic, kids are not capable of emotional attachment either? They are attached to us only because we feed and house them and that is all? Think about what you are saying...


YES, they most certainly do. What about dogs used in police or guard work? Dogs are definitely capable of assessing a situation, predicting the outcome of certain actions, and making decisions on how to act in such a situation. Yes, these animals are specially trained, but this proves that they are definitely capable of this type of thought. If by their species they weren't capable, no amount of training in the world could make them do it.

I'm sad that you haven't had the type of relationship with an animal enough to prove to you that they feel the emotional attachment of love and companionship. But I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they do. You can't do what I do for a living and not KNOW that animals desire companionship or love their owners, and not only because they feed them.

I have put a lot of thought inot this Burnsy.
Actually, it began with the thoughts and thread about of our own beings with relation to altruism.
True philanthropy and unconditional love. *Not to say that those can't exist.

With that said, no, I don't think newborns think beyond what necessitates their survival for a short time.
You acknowledge, but do not give enough credit to "training." Training consists of repetition, which you mistake as preemptive thought processes.

I am sure you have, but have you seen the rigorous training that those animals you speak of go through, repetition, conditioning.
Irrelevant, why? Take them out of that environment, the context to that situation they were trained, then you begin to see and realize how their experience becomes irrelevant.
You can't let a "smart" breed cloud judgment IMHO.

oops, we were typing at the same time.

Originally Posted by Howie

Take them out of that environment, the context to that situation they were trained, then you begin to see and realize how their experience becomes irrelevant.
You can't let a "smart" breed cloud judgment IMHO.

I reiterate what I said above:

There have been stories about dogs acting in such a way in an emergency-type situation that they weren't trained to do, which can mean they truly do understand what is going on in the situation and has the consciousness to act accordingly, without being trained to do so. Pure breed or not, these dogs have proved heroic in a variety of dire situations due to their problem-solving ability and the conscious understanding of what needs to be done.

Originally Posted by Burns

There have been stories about dogs acting in such a way in an emergency-type situation that they weren't trained to do, which can mean they truly do understand what is going on in the situation and has the consciousness to act accordingly, without being trained to do so. Pure breed or not, these dogs have proved heroic in a variety of dire situations due to their problem-solving ability and the conscious understanding of what needs to be done.

We live in a family situation that is difficult to explain. Without going into that, let me share a little story about that dog there in the avatar.

A family member who is not welcome in our home decided to pay a little visit just a few months after we got our dog. Lucky had no knowledge of this person, and up to this time had been a quiet, frightened, skittish rescue case. She was also incredibly affectionate and friendly with everybody she met, and the few exceptions brought out fear in her, usually due to misunderstandings.

This person walked into our back door unannounced, out of the blue. She got about five steps inside when all hell broke loose. Lucky, with her hair standing on end, fangs bared and growling like she was possessed, backed this person right out of our house. We ended up restraining her and then letting this person in.

All the while she was here, (which wasn't long at all,) Lucky was straining to attack. One thing for damn sure - that person will never set foot in this house uninvited again, so long as this dog is here.

I'll also remind you of the story I told last year about Lucky's habit of raiding the pantry and, without EVER eating anything herself, hiding treats under our pillows when she is left here alone.

This dog routinely blows my mind, Howie. She's conscious. She dreams. She often seems to read our minds. And she really seems to understand people - better than we do, quite often.

You can explain it all away, I'm sure... but we know what we experience with this dog day in and day out. She is an amazing creature - an amazing being.