Thread: Why are drugs illegal?

Originally Posted by Howie

If you would like to compare, let's compare. You compare your list with that of hard core drugs and then claim how harmless the others are.

I also compaired them with Coffee and Tobacco, 2 drugs that are not quite "hardcore drugs", but still alot more harmfull than all of the hallucinogens I mentioned.

Originally Posted by Howie

You tell us things as evident as what addiction is, how it becomes, but must be inept yourself to recognize the simple truth. The truth is, however slowly any substance can creep up on an individual. Many may find themselves being that menace to society.
How are you confident to decide what a persons "hard needed fix.", is? While mine may be one thing, yours may be another. Go on to tell us that cocaine is so very hardcore and addictive, as it is. But all the while you advocate the legality of a mind altering substance. That is the fact. It alters a mind, which in turn comes the obvious to some, the blurred line of decision making?

How can you judge your friends like that? What gives you the right to decide for them that their ways of decision making are wrong? Maybe it were exactly the right ways of making decision from their point of view. There's no need to assume they are any worse or better, more or less responsible or more or less driven in making decisions than you just because they are all long term Marijuana smokers.

I have always disagreed with how society constantly pushes the individual around demanding it to offer it's time and survice to society to the point of totally intruding into and indoctrinating their lives. I don't think it should me any of your busyness how your fellow men live their lives just as long as they don't exploit/fraud public survices and aren't violent/dominant/intolerant towards others.
Your judgement of your friend's decisionmaking appears to be based on your own conflicted point of view concerning Mind alteration. I guess you assume it blurs them as much as it did you. Have you ever considered that it probably doesn't or they would have probably stopped smoking cannabis when you quit it too? Or of whichever form of consciousness altering you have done in the past.

Also you should not confuse Consciousness altering with Mind Blurring. Like you said: What is for you might not be for me. In my case I am very mentally confused and easily distracted to begin with. If I smoke Marijuana my head calms down so that it actually becomes LESS blurry. Medicine for me.
I do have a perspective of seeing and using your "list". Which prior to me saying so, you must have thought I was straight and narrow.... minded, anti drug poser. I too have altered myself many times in many shapes and forms. I have extracted out of them some experiences that I could not have otherwise. However, when I am out of this fog, I can clearly see a difference between not only me and the impaired, but me and myself, impaired.
I have and still do see the abuse of marijuana in five people on a regular basis. This may seem a shallow number. It may be. But I have had the vantage point of growing up beside all of them. Not one of their quarrels against the ban on marijuana wavers. In that they are consistent.
They not do not steal or rob in the sense that you are speaking of. But they are a menace to society. Their decision making is opaque. It is the same as it was when they began to use marijuana. It is my freind from twelve years ago. This renders them a child in an adult, decision making world. Their behavior is as unwavering as their argument. Flawed.
Although they do claim to know all the answers to the universe.

So docile, so nice. So useless. Their priorities guided by a substance and not themselves, there fore leaving them misguided, affluent only by their own standards.
Leaving the rest of us, dealing with ourselves, good or bad. But still, there to deal with harsh, sobering decisions for a lax high society.


And this is interresting:
Quote:
Here's a Question: If I were to give you a Teabag of Plant Material which will make you feel <-insert desired feeling/mindstate here-> and told you it's less toxic than coffee and non-addictive; Would you strain a Tea out of it and try it?
Ecstasy!??
Yes. Would I make it legal? No![/quote]

I hope you meant you'd like the <insert desired feeling/mindstate here> to be an exstatic one. I didn't mean "E" just to be clear. Just a nonexistant fantasy herb to make for a good example.

What do you mean you WOULD try it but you WOULDN't legalise it?
So if you WOULD try something yourself, knowing it's safe enough not to pose a threat to your health and also be a very pleasurable experience, then why would you denie it to the rest of us and make it illegal?
Sounds backwards to me.

Originally Posted by ClouD

Frued was a kite.

High as.

EDIT: This is my 1,000th post.

SO true. He was an avid cocaine user!

God, i we really need access to the gasses that Anesthesiologists use. THEY ARE AMAZING.

Originally Posted by psychology student

Yes, I see what your saying: such drugs are inept for constant use, hey i don't know drugs too well. That is not hinderance for addiction.
Lets use pornography addiction as an example: initially, an addict will use pornography based on their sex drive: lets say once every few days, for most (perhaps comparable to magic mushrooms and Salvia). But after a while, an addict will become tolerant to the initial dose and the duration between trips will decrease. As the pornography addict will ditch his sex drive routine and use it more frequently, independent to any drives.
Perhaps, often use of some drugs is physiologically impossible as you say but somebody may still be addicted; not necessarily killing and robing for money but a withdrawal from basic life for temporary periods. This is not consistent addiction as you percieve it, but problematic enough to screw someone up: what if ther comes a time when they can't get their supply, they become overly depressed or anxious and are unable to function, they need not kill or rob for addiction to exist. Whenever they become naturally sad due to the lows of life, they run to their addiction.
I am sure that many can use drugs recreationally, addiction affects a small percentage, the problem is that one cannot predict if addiction will occur, and complacency doesn't help.
Nonetheless, you guys are all smart people, debating the subject in a forum, evaluating the risks (the addiction probably applies to merely a few of you), the problem with blanket legalisation is that there are alot of stupid people out there, who don't know the risks and don't really care about them.

And about the banning of alcohol. The governments would love to ban it, its arguably as bad as some illegal drugs. The problem of banning it is that its is so easy to make: yeast and glucose sources (fruit, vegtables). Anyone could make it without detection or suspicion and as a result the would lose their tax cut. So they keep it legal and recieve a tax cut, it is that simple. I don't think that it is anything sinister though!

I have never heard of anybody doing mushrooms, DMT, or salvia divinorum every day, or even every week. Should we really have a war on those things because somebody might be absurd enough to do them every day? Wouldn't it be that person's choice and not the government's IF such a bizarre thing happened?

Alcohol is universes more dangerous than the drugs we are talking about. Mainly, it is LETHAL. It is also extremely addictive. Plus, it makes many of its users very dangerous to others because it makes them suck at driving while thinking they can drive and it makes so many people violent. The difference is astronomical. But you say it should be legal because people can make it on their own? The same is true of the psychedelics. Marijuana and salvia divinorum are plants. Go figure. Psilocybin mushrooms are literally mushrooms, and they grow on cow shit. LSA is in morning glory seeds you can buy at Wal-Mart and gardening stores. People can also grow morning glories (a type of flower), which is why the seeds are sold at Wal-Mart and gardening stores. There is information all over the internet about how to extract smokable DMT, and it can be taken orally simply by mixing ayahuasca vine and the chacruna plant. So your argument about how easy it is for people to make their own alcohol applies to psychedelic drugs also.

I want to add that I am not saying psychedelic drugs are completely harmless or that I encourage everybody to do them. I am just saying that they are not lethal or addictive (Though marijuana is psychologically addictive.) and that they are worlds less harmful than some of the recreational drugs that are lethal. I also think self-destruction is a person's right any way, and we are talking mostly about drugs that are not involved in self-destruction.

The problem of banning it is that its is so easy to make: yeast and glucose sources (fruit, vegtables).

do you know how easy it is to grow hallucinogenic mushrooms? you can order the spores online and it's perfectly legal to do so.

Also many people know Marijuana seeds can be obtained from many birdseed mixtures.

in the US too?

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

It's politics and money, therefore rational arguments are useless.

haha that pretty much sums it up.

btw can you get addicted to aspirin?

btw can you get addicted to aspirin?

i would assume in the same way as other pain killers.

One word:

Taxes.

Originally Posted by Mrs. Jones

haha that pretty much sums it up.

btw can you get addicted to aspirin?

OH yeah. You also build up a tolerance, just like every other drug, and need to take more and more for the same effect...

And that's when the ulcers start to appear in your stomach.

Originally Posted by Pyrofan1

i would assume in the same way as other pain killers.

Not really true.

OTC painkillers (Aspirin, Acetaminophen, Ibuprofin, etc) have a mainly psychologically addictive quality. Let's say you take them for headaches. Then your brain basically tells itself, "I have a headache. I know that (painkiller) will get rid of it. I need to have (painkiller) to get rid of this headache." You'll find that you won't be able to get rid of your headache without taking that drug.

Perscription painkillers are almost all Opiates. Morphine, Codeine, and then the derivatives of other major opioids (oxycodone, oxycontin, etc). These are physically addictive in the same way that Heroin, an opioid, is. That's just one reason they are perscription. They bind to your neurotransmitters and pretty much won't let go.

well i didn't know drugs were so easy to make!
But they still don't touch alcohol on a criminality basis. If you were caught with fruit and yeast, in doesn't necessarily mean your making alcohol, its essentially unprovable. Alcohol can be made by taking a trip to your local store, no fuss, no suspicion. Doing the same for drugs is far harder.
You guys cited birdseed as a source of weed seeds. For bird seed you need a specialist store, surely, and if it was a reliable technique the government and police would soon learn about it and deal with it.
And if your caught with weed seeds, surely it will be very easy to prosecute an individual with conspiracy or an attempt to commit a crime.
Moreover, the knowledge required to ferment alcohol can be found in any science text book. Creating drugs is far harder information to come by for the general public (heck, i didn't know many of these methods until today).

But seriously, making alcohol illegal is an unpoliceable task: the evidence to prosecute a person, would be dubious: he was carrying fruit and yeast! Whereas I cannot say the same for drugs: he was caught carrying drug seeds, or, he had bird feed, and yet has shown no history of a liking for birds, or he made a trip to the forest to pick mushrooms! Come on. Surely, Alcohol is substantially more difficult to prohibit, and punish offenders when compared to drugs. Alcohol is at a whole different level.


And, Universal mind said that people should have a right to harm themselves. Ofcourse, I agree when their acts do not affect others. But the problem here is deciding where to draw the line. In Britain, we have a Public health service, which means people who unecessarily harm themselves cost the taxpayer, maybe this does not apply to America. Yet, aditionally, coming from a socialist point of view, people also owe something to the state, and hence they should try to be the best that they can be, particularly relating to employment. Impairing ones health does not help this end.

We try to allow some open discussion of this topic. It still goes by the way side. Inevitably the where and how to obtain and find specifics on drugs in discussed.

I think that in itself is an argument against rational thinking.

- Accountability for your own actions.

It does effect more than the user.How obtuse can you possibly be?
I have written, thought and deleted four times now. Why? Because it is apparent that no matter how I word it, it will not sink in.

An argument can be brought to the table, but not comprehension.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I have never heard of anybody doing mushrooms, DMT, or salvia divinorum every day, or even every week.

Rumor has it Ozzy Ozbourne did acid every day for two year. It shows.

What? What's wrong with Ozzie!?

It doesn't even work two days in a row. So I think that is just a rumor.

Originally Posted by psychology student

Creating drugs is far harder information to come by for the general public

Actually, it's general knowledge. 9 out of 10 people know that mushrooms grow on cow shit. Plus there's so many guides online to creating drugs-- the internet is a vast source.

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

What? What's wrong with Ozzie!?

It doesn't even work two days in a row. So I think that is just a rumor.

Actually, it does. You just build up a tolerance. You need more for the same effect. And with LSD, if you took it every day for two years, you wouldn't have NO effect; you'd have the usual pupil dilation, vision sharpness, and other things i can't really explain. You just wouldn't trip.

Originally Posted by b12

You just wouldn't trip.

That's what I meant.

"9 of 10 know that mushrooms grow on cow manure". I didn't know that, I also doubt that any of my family know that, i also doubt that many of my friends know that. People who post on this thread are likely to be drug savvy, but I severly doubt that such a large proportion of the general public know such things. Honestly.

Although, I can't argue with the Internet thing.

Howie,

Am I correct that what I percieve as the "layed back, meditate/relax some more, sleep better and don't rush too much in life" additude Marijuana indeed GENERALLY seems to stimulate is the "indecive slacker and thereby being a menace to society" additude you described in your earlier post?

Because I think right there is the fundamental difference that makes you have a view opposite to mine. Because I truely believe that we percieve the same "Marijuana Mentality". From first hand experience and/or from observing friends who are avid cannabis smokers. I still think first hand experience is better to speak from if you want to make a judgement of something that is an experience: such as the Marijuana Mentality and then still: your judgement can only be personal, subjective and may not apply to others.
Therefor you cannot say that YOUR subjective experience, or YOUR subjective, personal analysis&conclusion of percieving people high on Marijuana is common, objective, general truth.

I see that we oppose on this issue and just now I tried to place myself into your point of view and took a few wild guesses as to what your opinion about the "Marijuana Mentality" was and why.

I ask you if you would like to try to shift into my point of view and try to guess, like I did, why I see the Marijuana mentality to be rather something potentially very usefull and beneficial to the social, emotional/spiritual/personal, motivational/productive functionability and developement and the locating and deployment of talents for the individual and so, naturally, good for the productiveness, economy, mental health of the society as a whole.

Can you imagine how the legalisation of Marijuana could very possibly lead to a significant decrease of hard-needed-employees having burn-outs in today's stressfull "Employees are expandable survice-robots and forget they are human beings that also need time for socialising, relaxation, family bonding, Romance and proper sleep"-society. Marijuana is known for it's GENERALLY very efficient stress reduction. It helps significantly relax all muscles of the body. People will not have backs like concrete instead of flesh as much anymore when they smoke.

Marijuana smoking is also a very social, and sometimes very intellectual(depending on the Stoners in question) ceremony. Smoking a joint after having had an intense argument with a loved one has proved to be a very efficient way to cool yourself down, confront your loved one again, and talk things over in a Calm, Waaaay relaxed and civilised tone for me and for many other Marijuana smokers I know.

When stress from homesituations or the pressure of a fulltime job are getting to someone's head in a way that it starts hindering them in being social and functional, sometimes completely neurotic ( drinking coffee doesn't help either) then smoking a Marijuana and/or Hash Joint GENERALLY has the effect to calm the chaotic mind down to a do-able, more clearminded, and more emotionally stable pace.

Another great potential Marijuana has is stimulating Creativity and Daydreams/fantasy.
This can be handy if you're an on-demand-working creative artist who has an "Inspirational dip" for a while and a customer demands him to use his creativity and design him a Logo. If you are a creative person that likes to draw, paint, sculpt, write, compose music, dance..etc you are most likely to know what "an inspirational dip" is.
If you're a professional artist and the Customer demands you to be creative, isn't it beneficial to tune a little bit more into the Creative Mind state, such as those brought on by Marijuana or Magic Mushrooms, and then ponder on the Task you were given by your Customer? It certainly is disastrous for your carreer and passion if a Customer is awaiting his demand and completely NOTHING will come to mind.

Marijuana has so much POTENTIAL in "lubricating" the Individual pinwheels that are part of the big clockwork named Society and thereby making it work much better, smoother and more efficient.

Originally Posted by SKA

And this is interresting:
Quote:
Here's a Question: If I were to give you a Teabag of Plant Material which will make you feel <-insert desired feeling/mindstate here-> and told you it's less toxic than coffee and non-addictive; Would you strain a Tea out of it and try it?

Ecstasy!??
Yes. Would I make it legal? No!

I felt that ecstasy was a great metaphor given the dialect. Let's use Euphoria instead, to eliminate confusion.

Originally Posted by SKA

I hope you meant you'd like the <insert desired feeling/mindstate here> to be an exstatic one. I didn't mean "E" just to be clear. Just a nonexistant fantasy herb to make for a good example.

What do you mean you WOULD try it but you WOULDN't legalise it?
So if you WOULD try something yourself, knowing it's safe enough not to pose a threat to your health and also be a very pleasurable experience, then why would you denie it to the rest of us and make it illegal?
Sounds backwards to me.

Backwards? Think about it.
I meant exactly what I said. That is exactly why it should not be legal.
Surely you do not think so many members of society would be responsible users as so few are, do you?

Yes, SKA, Sorry I did not see your last response.
I do approach this issue from a hard line don't I? I don't mean to sound like a bureaucrat.

I have I really have taken all your points into consideration. Not only from a first person perspective but from that of a friend, employees, co workers and family members.

I have taken these points into consideration more than once, more than this specific thread. The arguments just do not pan out.
I have tired of taking each individual variable and come to the same conclusions. Is it subjective, I guess some will view it as such. I'm not so sure I do anymore. Employees have failed me on many occasions, In return Me and all the other tax payers get to fit the bill for so many trickle down effects of drug use.

I have explored myself and being an artist I have seen a creative side. Much like steroids, I would like to take credit for my own work and not say a drug influenced my creativity.
I would like to think that people in their own homes could safely use, experiment, and enjoy some mind altering substances without ill effects on society, but I do not see it that way. To the contrary, I have seen it the other way...literally.

I will go on paying my dues to Government foundations that support these lifestyles. Becasue I have to by law. In at least our country, we all are required to. This giving rise why people should open their eyes and realize it requires so much more of themselves and NOT just the health and lifestyle of one individual.
I will go on paying, not monetarily as I see many of my acquaintances lul through life in their fog. Meanwhile attacking other drugs, alcohol, cigarettes.... along with the "Big Brother" stomping out your freedoms approach to validate their own vulnerability.

Are their exceptions?
There always are!

Art made from the inspiration gotten while under the influence of a Psychedelic is not like the psychedelic drug GAVE you that. Like actually the drug should be credited.
Psychedelic literally means Mind manifest. Psychedelics are "Keys" that "Open doors" that allow you to experience your own Mind in a sense-percetional way. All visions, ideas, inspirations and insights gained in psychedelic experiences are all your own, stirred up out of the deep and manifested emotionally, intellectually/cognitively, visually, auditory and sometimes oflactory and tactile.

And if you hate paying taxes; The many trickle down effects of drug use you describe as so costy are all a direct effect of the prohibiton. Why do you think it is that here in Holland, Criminality around Marijuana & Hash production are so low, almost non-existant? Maybe, keeping the effect of drug-use costs on your tax-costs in account, next time vote for a Politician planning to Legalise Marijuana. And with all of that said I sure hope you are no supporter of the War in Iraq and Afghanistan. That's easily the mayority of where American tax money goes today and both those Endeavors sure kill a lot more people than Marijuana..which never killed anyone.

Originally Posted by Howie

Ecstasy!??

Backwards? Think about it.
I meant exactly what I said. That is exactly why it should not be legal.
Surely you do not think so many members of society would be responsible users as so few are, do you?

Agreed, but I am confident that with Proper drug education people would become responsible if they weren't before. except for a select, hopeless few who are also addicted to coffee, gambling and pornography.
Right now drug education is so Scarce and Full of lies and misleading, tampered with quasi-"scientific" reports about drugs, that the Authority's warnings of drugs have by now gotten 0 credibility.

The people that now are wreckless and irresponsible with their drug use, or are the kind of people with such personalities that they're more vurnerable to start using drugs irresponsibly would, for the vast mayority, defenitely NOT be as irresponsible and wreckless as they are now, if because of PROPER drug education they were aware of the facts. I'm sure the vast mayority of irresponsible users are irresponsible because they are not aware of the facts, and because "Drugs" is such a taboo issue, the overseeable, listed facts of the various, commonly used or abused drugs circulating society are not complete, conclusive and scattered over the net and contradictive. Irresponsible drug use is most likely for 88&#37; due to people being under- and mis-educated about drugs. This leaves curious people reaching in the Dark.

And to get back to the magical, harmless euphoria Tea bag:
I can understand why you'd find harmfull drugs disagreeable and even disgusting: cuz so do I. I just can't understand why you wouldn't want to experience complete Euphoria from a Drug-herb that has no negative consequences whatsoever.

Is it that you somehow think feeling Euphoria is bad or sinfull? Is it the idea that it is "drug induced"? Or is it that you feel that being able to induce Euphoria when desired has a great abuse potential for ignorant escapist that get "out of Touch" with Reality not being willing to face it?


I know such people too, But they're only a very small fraction of all the Cannabis and/or Hallucinogen-users I know.

Originally Posted by psychology student

well i didn't know drugs were so easy to make!
But they still don't touch alcohol on a criminality basis. If you were caught with fruit and yeast, in doesn't necessarily mean your making alcohol, its essentially unprovable. Alcohol can be made by taking a trip to your local store, no fuss, no suspicion. Doing the same for drugs is far harder.

First of all, alcohol is a drug. It does not have any legitimate reason to get some special exception from the label "drug". Alcohol is a drug, and it is one of the most dangerous ones there is. Also, buying morning glory seeds, growing a salvia plant, going mushroom picking on your friend's farm, and mixing ayahuasca vine and chacruna that came in the mail in inconspicuous boxes are all easier to do than making alcohol and raise the same amount of suspicion, which is about none.

Originally Posted by psychology student

And, Universal mind said that people should have a right to harm themselves. Ofcourse, I agree when their acts do not affect others. But the problem here is deciding where to draw the line. In Britain, we have a Public health service, which means people who unecessarily harm themselves cost the taxpayer, maybe this does not apply to America. Yet, aditionally, coming from a socialist point of view, people also owe something to the state, and hence they should try to be the best that they can be, particularly relating to employment. Impairing ones health does not help this end.

Then what do you think of banning high fat foods? Refined sugar? Tobacco (It kills 1/3 of its users.)? Not exercising? Lack of sleep? How far should the government go in telling us how healthy our lifestyles have to be? All of those things I just listed are worse for your health than the general frequency of use of most psychedelics.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Then what do you think of banning high fat foods? Refined sugar? Tobacco (It kills 1/3 of its users.)? Not exercising? Lack of sleep? How far should the government go in telling us how healthy our lifestyles have to be? All of those things I just listed are worse for your health than the general frequency of use of most psychedelics.

Amen to that.

Joe Rogan speaks my Mind about DMT and Psychedelics and harmfull drugs here:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=m51X4z1xVWE

Notice your list Universal.
You are arguing (again) on how OTHER habits are more harmful. Notice that none of these effects our safety other than sleep. The others do effect our wallet like so many of them do.
However rules are implemented for drivers doctors, etc, all in an attempt at public safety with regards to sleep deprivation. The same goes for the legalization of psychedelics. In many cases the mushroom user or pot smoker sits in their home and does not bother anybody. <-- Can you straight out tell me that an individual that is high on weed or using a form of psychedelics is safe to operate a crane, babysit a kid, drive a bus?

Originally Posted by Howie
When questioned why drugs are illegal, why is it that the inevitable parallel is that of why other things are legal?

Does making the legality of tobacco and alcohol make it any more right for other drugs to be legal, EVEN if you deem them less harmful?

Are they not harmful?

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Yeah, I agree. Every time I see someone compare alcohol/tobaco to drugs, I see it more as an argument to prohibiting the former rather than legalizing the latter.

Is it because the argument to legalize other drugs is not a strong enough argument to stand on it's own?
It will never be admitted, but it seems ironic to me. Not too many people stand in the way of this approach, know one argues with you that alcohol or tobacco is bad, so foot in the door you go?

Originally Posted by SKA

Is it that you somehow think feeling Euphoria is bad or sinfull? Is it the idea that it is "drug induced"? Or is it that you feel that being able to induce Euphoria when desired has a great abuse potential for ignorant escapist that get "out of Touch" with Reality not being willing to face it?

[COLOR=DarkGreen]I think anyone in their right mind would like to feel euphoria.
Becasue it is something that is or can be induced, it now puts the decision in the hands of the one who uses. Which I do not think all the education in the world will stand in the way of when people want to do it. This is the reasoning behind why they should not be dolled out on a legal basis.

Ya know SKA, I am as much against the government having any more power than they do now. Also how they use and abuse this power, likely as much as you are in most cases.
It seems we disagree on how members of society can handle certain freedoms, privileges and powers. That coupled with what drugs are harmful and which are not.

Psychedelic Healing?
I thought you guys may find this intersting.

drugs are illegal because then people need money to buy them !!
and people dont have money, they already spent all freakin money to buy drugs!

and then they start stealing, burning killing others!

Originally Posted by roguext22

drugs are illegal because then people need money to buy them !!
and people dont have money, they already spent all freakin money to buy drugs!

and then they start stealing, burning killing others!

So givethem $$$$ or drugs?

When guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns.
When pot is outlawed (as it is) only pot smokers will have pot.