Thread: Salvia divinorum banned in Illinois... Why????

I will simplify this for the sake of argument:

Any drug use:
- Before taking the drug, the user admits:
- This drug will influence my decision processes to some degree. This drug can be used as an excuse for my behaviour.

Golf ball t-off:
- Before t-ing off, the user admits:
- I will hit this ball and aim for a hole
- While hitting the ball, there may be an incident where it hurts someone. However, this is a consequence of probabilities rather than deliberate action of planning.

~

Originally Posted by O'nus

I will simplify this for the sake of argument:

Any drug use:
- Before taking the drug, the user admits:
- This drug will influence my decision processes to some degree. This drug can be used as an excuse for my behaviour.

I disagree. The psychedelic drugs we have been talking about are not that type of drug. Nobody will every honestly go play mailbox baseball, mutilate a dog, run over an old lady, slap a cop, flash a group of cheerleaders, or steal a bulldozer and go driving down the road and say, "But I was on mushrooms," or, "Oh, that's because I was all tripped out on salvia," or, "I was in the mood to act like a boy scout until I smoked that hit of DMT." That is not the ballpark we are in here. Alcohol, crystal meth, xanax, cocaine, and heroin will be used in that way. The psychedelics we have been talking about are in a completely different league.

People can function in public on mushrooms, but they usually don't want to. I have a lot of experience with mushrooms, and I can assure you that a really strong trip will generally have people not wanting to go screw around in society, and even when they do, the last thing in the universe they want is trouble. Trouble is the unthinkable when you are in that state. Salvia and DMT, when experienced on any kind of solid and worthy level, make it practically impossible to even find the door. I have never done peyote (Mescaline is the active ingredient in peyote, so those words can be alternated.), but I have read reports of experiences. You can find stories on the net about people who took peyote and had fun trying to get from one room to the other. They talk about it like it is that climb the runged ropes challenge at amusement parks. The weaker the trip, the more lucid the user. People on those drugs are not something to spend any time worrying about.

Originally Posted by O'nus

Golf ball t-off:
- Before t-ing off, the user admits:
- I will hit this ball and aim for a hole
- While hitting the ball, there may be an incident where it hurts someone. However, this is a consequence of probabilities rather than deliberate action of planning.

~

Probability is what is ultimately relevant here. The specific issue we have been discussing lately is public safety. Plus, once that golf ball is in the air, the hitter no longer has control of it. That could be his excuse. If the ball hits somebody in the head and kills him, he is just as dead as he would be if he had been run over and killed by somebody on salvia or if a guy on a three wheeler came blasting off a trail and ran into him and killed him. The end result is what it is, no matter what caused it. And two equal amounts of danger of differing types are still equal amounts of danger, just like a pound of iron weighs the same as a pound of feathers.

Wow, this thread has grown out of control. I guess I have a few comments.

1st, don't assume that everyone who finds salvia interesting is a burned out irresponsible person. I've smoked my fair share. Would you be surprised to know I have a Ph.D. in engineering? Would you be surprised to know I lead a team of engineers developing products that bring in 10's of millions of dollars per year? That I hold numerous US patents? My brain is working just fine - thank you.

2nd, while I would not be thrilled to hear my daughter was using salvia at some point in the future, I would be less concerned to hear that news, than to hear she's using almost any other recreational drug I can think of, especially alcohol. Those who understand Salvia know it's used for personal exploration and introspection, in private, lying on the floor where you can't hurt yourslef. Proper use of this drug is harmless.

Final point. I remember a story of a bad LSD trip someone told me about. It invloved some guy who had this horrible hallucination of the devil coming out of his chest and taunting him for hours. You know what - handle you're fucking drugs. If you're that guy, you stepped over the line. There's always going to be some idiot pushing the limits and getting himself into trouble. It doesn't matter what the substance or legal status is.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I disagree. The psychedelic drugs we have been talking about are not that type of drug. Nobody will every honestly go play mailbox baseball, mutilate a dog, run over an old lady, slap a cop, flash a group of cheerleaders, or steal a bulldozer and go driving down the road and say, "But I was on mushrooms," or, "Oh, that's because I was all tripped out on salvia," or, "I was in the mood to act like a boy scout until I smoked that hit of DMT." That is not the ballpark we are in here. Alcohol, crystal meth, xanax, cocaine, and heroin will be used in that way. The psychedelics we have been talking about are in a completely different league.

I see what you are saying because if we are to universalise a policy to include all 'drugs' then we ought to also ommit DXM and cough medication, right? So, I think the problem is the sake of universal treatment and how many people will argue over the properties of drugs compared to others. Of course, some drugs are beneficial and others are harmful. However, others are beneficial and deadly depending on the dosage.

With all this in mind, I think we can agree that the best means is truly to legalise drugs in order to regulate them with simultaneous education on them. For example, if I want to go buy heroin, I will get something similar on the cigarette packages to inform me of the consequences and what it does (also likely how to take it). Of course, this is not with the intent to deter peoples choice to take the drug, but to let them know that their free choice will have consequences.

Any further acts, like driving a car and killing people, would be separated so that it can be treated appropriately. For example, if I took that heroin, which warned me that it would inebriate me, then I should also take responsibility for hurting others while my decision process was inebriated.

Right?

Probability is what is ultimately relevant here. The specific issue we have been discussing lately is public safety. Plus, once that golf ball is in the air, the hitter no longer has control of it. That could be his excuse. If the ball hits somebody in the head and kills him, he is just as dead as he would be if he had been run over and killed by somebody on salvia or if a guy on a three wheeler came blasting off a trail and ran into him and killed him. The end result is what it is, no matter what caused it. And two equal amounts of danger of differing types are still equal amounts of danger, just like a pound of iron weighs the same as a pound of feathers.

lol yes.. but try and get the pound of feather to have terminal velocity. :p

I think these are decent grounds to rest on. I wish Howie would respond instead of running away. *Shakes fist*

~

Originally Posted by O'nus

I see what you are saying because if we are to universalise a policy to include all 'drugs' then we ought to also ommit DXM and cough medication, right? So, I think the problem is the sake of universal treatment and how many people will argue over the properties of drugs compared to others. Of course, some drugs are beneficial and others are harmful. However, others are beneficial and deadly depending on the dosage.

With all this in mind, I think we can agree that the best means is truly to legalise drugs in order to regulate them with simultaneous education on them. For example, if I want to go buy heroin, I will get something similar on the cigarette packages to inform me of the consequences and what it does (also likely how to take it). Of course, this is not with the intent to deter peoples choice to take the drug, but to let them know that their free choice will have consequences.

Any further acts, like driving a car and killing people, would be separated so that it can be treated appropriately. For example, if I took that heroin, which warned me that it would inebriate me, then I should also take responsibility for hurting others while my decision process was inebriated.

Right?

I agree with every bit of that.

Originally Posted by O'nus

lol yes.. but try and get the pound of feather to have terminal velocity. :p

But maybe the pound of feathers could turn into a squirrel falling from a tree. (For those who didn't get that, see O'nus's evolution thread.)

Originally Posted by O'nus

I think these are decent grounds to rest on. I wish Howie would respond instead of running away. *Shakes fist*

I think he might have been converted to the bright side of the force. Welcome aboard, Howie!

Originally Posted by O'nus

Where do people get this drug?

You can buy it at Local Color in Oxford, Mississippi. That is a head shop that is right by Ole Miss (University of Mississippi). Guess what. Local Color has been selling salvia for years and years, and salvia is not at all popular among Ole Miss students. The guy who owns the place just keeps a box of bags for the rare occasions when people go there and want to buy it. When my sister went to Ole Miss a few years ago, I stayed with her and got her and a bunch of her friends to try salvia, and some of them were regular pot smokers and even regular users of other drugs. I also sometimes would get my sister or friends of hers to bring salvia down to Jackson when they came, and I would get them to try it. None of them really liked it, even though it twisted their minds into crazy knots (It causes a certain degree of physical pain, makes people extremely hot and sweaty, and is usually a good bit frightening.), and salvia is STILL not popular among Ole Miss students. But if Mississippi ever makes salvia illegal, God forbid, I guarantee you salvia will greatly increase in popularity at Ole Miss and the rest of the state because of the new hype and the new taboo giving birth to a whatever scale rebellion craze. That is what happens every time a drug gets banned.

Originally Posted by O'nus

I think these are decent grounds to rest on. I wish Howie would respond instead of running away. *Shakes fist*
~

Reasons:

Originally Posted by Universal

The most important thing to consider here is that people on salvia are not going to be skipping rocks. I am not sure you quite understand just how disorienting salvia is. Have you ever done it? What all have you read about it? It is not a skip rocks at a picnic kind of drug. I can't even stand up for more than a few seconds when I am on it.

First this is and has been his subjective argument.

people on salvia are not going to be skipping rocks.

As you can clearly see by what he claims of his experience, it is a dangerous drug. I too know this from experience.
To look at the larger scope, to include all the psychedelics mentioned, which have very similar effects, consider phycodic episodes for information.
So for Universal, I must find a "real life" example of a dangerous activity while under the effects of salvia to quantify any reason to monitor this drug under the classification of an illegal substance. Little is known about this drug. Little facts exist. Making salvia any easy topic to glorify as he has done. In effect making his argument seem more credible. Other physcedelics fell by the way side.
Where as you could try to take this variable out of the equation. <--- How we differ in opinions. Effects on the societies legality of these substances .
I will too note that I have stated what I feel differentiates making an existing legal drug illegal, (salvia/alcohol ) compared to the opposite. Such as LSD. Had he gone back, as I have so often asked him to do. He may have seen that.

Here is another example of him not reading my content.

Have you ever done it? What all have you read about it?

I have actually posted one of MY salvia experiences. ~To the wind' Also several times I had talked about this. Also leading me to the conclusion I have -my subjective experience on these chemicals. This, not to mention the many other things I have pointed out, only to fall upon deaf ears. So I condensed my posts for easy reference. This is also why I decided any further discussion would only lead to animosity towards Universal and myself.
Plus it is taking up a hell of a lot of time.

The ever so stupid comparison that I won't even spell out again.
Universal insists on --->

Salvia divinorum should be illegal because _________________________________, but golf should be legal because ______________________________________________.

I have written in great length for this answer. I am guessing he wants me to fit this in one (his) sentence. That, I will not do, I can not do, because I had to express the fundamentals of reasoning and the underlying concept. As a result the topic has been dumbed down. Sad really.

O'nus and SKA, I would like to discuss something you both have brought up. Something that me in particular had not addressed.
That is the effect of the legalization in other countries. This is what I was eluding to when I said, "Look at our culture."
I do not think it is a comparison that holds enough weight. Our culture is a statisfy me NOW culture. Unlike that of Europe's. (this is not from my own experience though.) This is from what I have read and here from other people.

To add a partially subjective perspective on my part:
I live in a somewhat unique economic area. One of the higher per capita income per household in the entire region. Having grown up in this area my entire life, I have seen the abuse of psychedelics. --psychedelics ! More so alcohol....of coarse. The abuse of "hardcore drugs" too, but having a larger impact..ofcoarse. But none the less, the problem does exist. It does exist!

Originally Posted by Howie

O'nus and SKA, I would like to discuss something you both have brought up. Something that me in particular had not addressed.
That is the effect of the legalization in other countries. This is what I was eluding to when I said, "Look at our culture."
I do not think it is a comparison that holds enough weight. Our culture is a statisfy me NOW culture. Unlike that of Europe's. (this is not from my own experience though.) This is from what I have read and here from other people.

Could you elaborate more..?

Are you saying that other countries do not want to be "satisfied now" and are more relaxed and laid back?

Why do you think our (well, USA, I think you are referring to) is like that? What do you think contributed to perpetuating that characteristic?

With your response to that in mind, do you think that people's response to illegalising drugs would not cause reactance like that of "don't touch the cookies in the cookie jar"?

To add a partially subjective perspective on my part:
I live in a somewhat unique economic area. One of the higher per capita income per household in the entire region. Having grown up in this area my entire life, I have seen the abuse of psychedelics. --psychedelics ! More so alcohol....of coarse. The abuse of "hardcore drugs" too, but having a larger impact..ofcoarse. But none the less, the problem does exist. It does exist!

Perhaps you would like to consider the safe injection sites (SIS) that then help people with these problems and how they have significantly helped decrease deaths and overdoses. In the past years, Vancouver has utilized this facility and has seen a significant drop in overdoses and hospital visits, etc. I could reap the sources, if you wanted.

What do you think...?
~

Originally Posted by O'nus

Could you elaborate more..?

Are you saying that other countries do not want to be "satisfied now" and are more relaxed and laid back?

Yes. Hustle bustle, nose to the grind stone type attitude. This doesn't seem so prevalent in most other developing nations.
It seems that our satisfaction has no ceiling. So we are never content.

Oh yes. United States.

Why do you think our (well, USA, I think you are referring to) is like that? What do you think contributed to perpetuating that characteristic?

Specifically.... WWll. With the entrance of woman into the work place and the following booming economy gave the average Joe a taste of the forbidden fruit. We have manifested into a nation to - Be The Best! The biggest, most powerful and driven.

With your response to that in mind, do you think that people's response to illegalising drugs would not cause reactance like that of "don't touch the cookies in the cookie jar"?

Yes that will inevitably happen, as I said, you can see this in the salvia debacle now. However, the other drugs are already illegal. So making them legal could create the same malfunctioning culture of as we see with legal alcohol.
No I do not think this will create some perverse nation. No I do not feel that the number of people that would seek out drugs just because they are illegal, would come anywhere close to the number of people that would do drugs if they became legal.


Now what is taking place. Salvia, when compared to the other illegal psychedelic drugs, has the same attributes and characteristics. It has recently been noticed, a drug that was virtually unknown to most of the public ~(It is not as well documented as golf you Know. ) would be a case that when compared to the illegal drugs, has the same attributes and characteristics. This in effect would be why illlegislation is sought out by a lot of people. Right or wrong.

Perhaps you would like to consider the safe injection sites (SIS) that then help people with these problems and how they have significantly helped decrease deaths and overdoses. In the past years, Vancouver has utilized this facility and has seen a significant drop in overdoses and hospital visits, etc. I could reap the sources, if you wanted.

What do you think...?
~

I'm not sure what you are proposing here O'nus.
This atmosphere is much different than inner cities and impoverished areas. That where you would see methadone clinics and such.
Unlike the hardcore drugs, that we all seem to agree, have some negative effects. I am talking more specially of psychedelic drugs. These drugs you do not see the over doses that cause death. BUT > because they do not kill as many people as golf balls, I am arguing the point that it does have an negative effect on a society. They are not always used in good measure. People do stupid things on these drugs and most importantally, it has a very negative impact on the immediate culture and inevitably an adverse outcome for the entire society

Originally Posted by Howie

Now what is taking place. Salvia, when compared to the other illegal psychedelic drugs, has the same attributes and characteristics.

No, it does not. It debilitates people from being able to go out and do stuff in public. But allowing people to go out in public for long periods of time is not a problem with other psychedelic drugs any way. The only psychedelic salvia strongly parallels is DMT, which also has never been a public problem.

Originally Posted by Howie

People do stupid things on these drugs and most importantally, it has a very negative impact on the immediate culture and inevitably an adverse outcome for the entire society

Can you give some real life examples of that? As for salvia, if people were really doing these things you are afraid of, it would not be "relatively unkown". This new legislation is bringing it out of "relatively unkwown" status, unlike its history of damage, which does not even exist.

Did you read those extra golf death stories I posted? Can you explain how those people are any less dead than they would be if somebody had done something crazy on salvia and killed them instead of dying because they were hit by golf balls that people deliberately hit into the air and had no more control of once they were in the air?

Originally Posted by Howie

Reasons:
First this is and has been his subjective argument.

Why do you want to keep talking about this if you are going to keep dodging what I say?

My argument is not merely subjective. It is historically factual. Also, people don't go into society and act like Beavis and Butthead when they are on salvia. If that is false, then prove it with real life stories.

Originally Posted by Howie

Reasons:

As you can clearly see by what he claims of his experience, it is a dangerous drug. I too know this from experience.
To look at the larger scope, to include all the psychedelics mentioned, which have very similar effects, consider phycodic episodes for information.
So for Universal, I must find a "real life" example of a dangerous activity while under the effects of salvia to quantify any reason to monitor this drug under the classification of an illegal substance. Little is known about this drug. Little facts exist. Making salvia any easy topic to glorify as he has done. In effect making his argument seem more credible. Other physcedelics fell by the way side.

Then give me even ONE story about where salvia has gotten somebody hurt. How many times have I requested that? But you have not done it. Do you see the importance of that? You keep talking about what salvia might do, but you can't even give me one story about where it has done it. That's pretty strikingly relevant, isn't it? Also, this is a salvia thread. Remember? But you are welcome to fill in those blanks with the other psychedelic drugs I have mentioned. Did you see where I posted the other golf death stories? Now it is your turn to tell some salvia death stories.

Originally Posted by Howie

Where as you could try to take this variable out of the equation. <--- How we differ in opinions. Effects on the societies legality of these substances .
I will too note that I have stated what I feel differentiates making an existing legal drug illegal, (salvia/alcohol ) compared to the opposite. Such as LSD. Had he gone back, as I have so often asked him to do. He may have seen that.

You have merely made the general assertion without being specific. Did you see my point about a thousand deaths hypothetically resulting from driving while stoned? Then counter it. How would the statistics be different between the two situations?

Originally Posted by Howie

Here is another example of him not reading my content. I have actually posted one of MY salvia experiences. ~To the wind' Also several times I had talked about this. Also leading me to the conclusion I have -my subjective experience on these chemicals. This, not to mention the many other things I have pointed out, only to fall upon deaf ears. So I condensed my posts for easy reference. This is also why I decided any further discussion would only lead to animosity towards Universal and myself.
Plus it is taking up a hell of a lot of time.

You talk like somebody who has never done it, and I don't exactly trust your intellectual honesty at this point, at least not on this particular topic.

Originally Posted by Howie

The ever so stupid comparison that I won't even spell out again.
Universal insists on --->
I have written in great length for this answer. I am guessing he wants me to fit this in one (his) sentence. That, I will not do, I can not do, because I had to express the fundamentals of reasoning and the underlying concept. As a result the topic has been dumbed down. Sad really.

You keep dodging it because you are stumped. I would quit telling you that if you would quit popping back in here just to run away. The reason I set up the blanks the way I did is that when you answer the two questions back to back, the contradictions becomes obvious. You know that, and that is why you keep dodging.