Thread: Innately Evil

Originally Posted by Abra

I don't know, but 'dark' lucid dreaming reminds me of original sin, the idea that humans are innately evil. People who kill in their lucid dreams, they still want it to happen. As realistically as possible, too.

That was posted by Abra on a topic on the "General Lucid Discussion" Board and it got me thinking. This was in reponse to a question about doing evil things in your dream. If you dream or lucid dream (with or without control) of you doing things that are considered truly evil, does it come back to this idea that at the core, humans are evil beings?

Don't get me wrong, we all know humans are capable of doing great good as well. But at our core, our very heart, we are always tempted to do the wrong thing. This might not be a 'major evil', but it still comes down to this basic idea of our core being "rotten". That even if we hold certain morals while we're are awake, that these can disintegrate by us doing something as simple as dreaming.

So do you think humans are Innately Evil? If you do, why? I just want to see what other people think about this as well. If you don't, what are your arguments?

I chose no for a few reasons. I think evil is, in itself, a human label. I don't think that there is anything that is objectively evil, and we are simply what we are. The things that we do that can be labelled as "evil" are only "evil" because of how we've come to define the word.

Also, humans are simply byproducts of their environments. A person that is born into a (subjectively) "good" environment is most likely to be a "good" person - to the point were even the thought of doing anything evil is so far beyond the person's scope of reasoning as to render the act itself impossible, without the proper motivation (which is, again, a factor of his/her environment).

I don't think we are born either way.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

I chose no for a few reasons. I think evil is, in itself, a human label. I don't think that there is anything that is objectively evil, and we are simply what we are. The things that we do that can be labelled as "evil" are only "evil" because of how we've come to define the word.

My thoughts exactly. Evil is what you make of it.

Humans aren't innately evil -
they're innately misguided.

It's interesting how close the poll is so far. Still not sure who I agree with, but I think i'm leaning towards a "No" note. I think Alban summed it up well.

The idea of humans being innately evil is incredibly misguided.

You are combining two of the biggest philosophical problems here:

1. What is human nature?
2. What is right and wrong?

So it's really no wonder that you get extremely mixed views. My view in short is that human nature is inherently nice, compassionate and cooperative (result of evolution) and things such as selfishness are NOT evil but good (also the result of evolution). Since I believe that evolution is not inherently evil, but inherently awesome, I also conclude that humans are inherently awesome, since they're the best evolution has come up with so far.

P.S. Nice Guys Finish First (doesn't hold true for dating though)

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

I chose no for a few reasons. I think evil is, in itself, a human label. I don't think that there is anything that is objectively evil, and we are simply what we are. The things that we do that can be labelled as "evil" are only "evil" because of how we've come to define the word.

Also, humans are simply byproducts of their environments. A person that is born into a (subjectively) "good" environment is most likely to be a "good" person - to the point were even the thought of doing anything evil is so far beyond the person's scope of reasoning as to render the act itself impossible, without the proper motivation (which is, again, a factor of his/her environment).

I don't think we are born either way.

Very good points. My view is similar.

There are no inherantly good or bad people. We judge a person's goodness and wickedness by their actions, which are decided on by our mental states which are in turn decided by our situations (and some wider infulences). The situations we are in create our actions, which will be the best actions to do in that situation.

Everyone, every single one of us has done and will do good and bad things in their lives. In any situation, we are affected by different levels of desperation (brought on by duress and necessity) and clearness of mind (as well as many, more minor, other factors), and other wider factors such as moral code, upbringing etc. In some situations, the best way to deal with things would be to act in a way that is deemed good. In others, the best or only way to deal with a situation is in a way that is deemed bad.

We don't do bad things because we are inherantly bad - "bad" actions are simply drawn out from us, sometimes willingly and sometmes unwillingly by the situation we're in. Good and bad are labels we've created to build up a happy little naive world of good guys and bad guys and disgiuse the fact that, no matter how "evil" an action is, under extreme circumstances anyone would do it.

We aren't innately evil. There are indeed dark recesses that hide the darkest desires within the depths of one's mind but that isn't the "core".

In essence, everyone is different. Regular dreams don't necessarily reflect one's desires at all. We dream of what concerns us or what we simply have on our minds. Doing something immoral in a lucid dream however is a different story. It means that a person can actually bring him/her self to doing that for someone with truly strong ideals and principles is disgusted by things that he/she finds evil/bad/immoral; truly naturally disgusted, and thus would never do such a thing, in an illusion or in reality.

Apathy is rampant nowadays but it doesn't necessarily lead to becoming evil, it leads to become savage and all that it entails.

All in all, being evil implies being completely self-consumed and self-centred, yearning for self-gain at any cost. But very few people live with such a mindframe, I imagine. We're social beings, we aren't meant to be alone.

i said yes. i believe that most people are deep down inherently evil and the only thing that's keeping most people from showing it are the consequences.

I side with H.H. The Dalai Lama--humans are essentially compassionate, but fear and craving twist us out of true. We're fascinated by violence because it's unusual, and perplexing.

I think that humans are innately evil, in the rational sense of the word. We still have animal instincts such as greed, selfishness, and aggressiveness. We can suppress them, but down inside we still have those animal impulses. This is why communism doesn't work, because we are greedy.

i said yes that humans are innately evil. We just are. However i do believe that we can change if we want to. If you decide you want to be good, then i believe that its possible to change yourself all the way through. Even to this "rotten core"

Originally Posted by freefire

i said yes that humans are innately evil. We just are. However i do believe that we can change if we want to. If you decide you want to be good, then i believe that its possible to change yourself all the way through. Even to this "rotten core"

I don't think so. An individual can't evolve.

I believe we are born with sin, however with the help of Jesus christ we can get rid of sin. So prey to jesus and be born again. You have two choices burn in hell or except jesus and live for ever.

Jesus Christ loves you.

Originally Posted by wendylove

I believe we are born with sin, however with the help of Jesus christ we can get rid of sin. So prey to jesus and be born again. You have two choices burn in hell or except jesus and live for ever.

Jesus Christ loves you.

If you ask me, that's just creepy. Who needs a religion that works by coercion?

Most people I've seen who are religious do good things because they're scared of the consequences of not being good, not saying grace, not helping beggars, instead of doing good because they think it's right. What sort of good is that?

I think wendylove was gracing us with a bit of sarcasm

Oh yeah. Only I didn't realise seeing as there are plenty of peoplw here who can say that seriously.

Heh, well, my points still stand.

But anyway, a bit off topic.

For example if you drop a baby off in the deep wilderness and do absolutely nothing to raise him, he will turn out evil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_child
Sorry, but feral children do not turn out evil.

Basicly the baby would have to do anything it needed to survive and so it would learn to be evil in order to live.

Feral children are not evil.

If the baby grows up in a good family, it will be a good person, not because the family molds him to be good, but because its the natural way for things to work.

Their are many factors that make people good, not just family. If you live in a violent family or live with a greedy family it does not mean you will turn out greedy. A good example was Hitler he lived with a normal family and he turned out evil, however his farther was a good person and his mother.

Again, goodness is complex and involves many factors.

People naturally want to survive, they will do anything to survive.

Not really. Again, people do sacrifice their lives to help save people. For example on Newnight(BBC news) they had a story about a old man risking his life to save a young girl. And the evolutionary biologist says that we have evolved past just thinking about ourselves and our own survival. Funny enough most people who sacrifice their lives say they think about their own family(the person in that case said he thought about his daughter when she was young). Another example is suicide bombers, note sucide bombers have the same motivitaion as people who sacrifice their lives i.e. a sense of belonging and family.

From my understanding, human beings are only born with two fears...the fear of falling and the fear of loud noises. Everything else is learned/programmed.