• Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views




    View Poll Results: Are Humans Innately Evil?

    Voters
    38. You may not vote on this poll
    • Yes

      13 34.21%
    • No

      20 52.63%
    • I'm Not Sure

      5 13.16%
    Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
    Results 1 to 25 of 50

    Thread: Innately Evil

    1. #1
      Technique Warrior CrimsonWolf's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 2007
      Gender
      Location
      Sydney, Australia
      Posts
      289
      Likes
      0

      Innately Evil

      Quote Originally Posted by Abra View Post
      I don't know, but 'dark' lucid dreaming reminds me of original sin, the idea that humans are innately evil. People who kill in their lucid dreams, they still want it to happen. As realistically as possible, too.
      That was posted by Abra on a topic on the "General Lucid Discussion" Board and it got me thinking. This was in reponse to a question about doing evil things in your dream. If you dream or lucid dream (with or without control) of you doing things that are considered truly evil, does it come back to this idea that at the core, humans are evil beings?

      Don't get me wrong, we all know humans are capable of doing great good as well. But at our core, our very heart, we are always tempted to do the wrong thing. This might not be a 'major evil', but it still comes down to this basic idea of our core being "rotten". That even if we hold certain morals while we're are awake, that these can disintegrate by us doing something as simple as dreaming.

      So do you think humans are Innately Evil? If you do, why? I just want to see what other people think about this as well. If you don't, what are your arguments?

      "It's politics and money, therefore rational arguments are useless." - Moonbeam
      Lucid Dreams: 2 [DILDs: 2, WILDs: 0]

    2. #2
      "O" will suffice. Achievements:
      1 year registered Made lots of Friends on DV Referrer Gold Veteran First Class Populated Wall Tagger First Class 25000 Hall Points Vivid Dream Journal
      Oneironaut Zero's Avatar
      Join Date
      Apr 2005
      LD Count
      20+ Years Worth
      Gender
      Location
      Central Florida
      Posts
      16,083
      Likes
      4031
      DJ Entries
      149
      I chose no for a few reasons. I think evil is, in itself, a human label. I don't think that there is anything that is objectively evil, and we are simply what we are. The things that we do that can be labelled as "evil" are only "evil" because of how we've come to define the word.

      Also, humans are simply byproducts of their environments. A person that is born into a (subjectively) "good" environment is most likely to be a "good" person - to the point were even the thought of doing anything evil is so far beyond the person's scope of reasoning as to render the act itself impossible, without the proper motivation (which is, again, a factor of his/her environment).

      I don't think we are born either way.
      http://i.imgur.com/Ke7qCcF.jpg
      (Or see the very best of my journal entries @ dreamwalkerchronicles.blogspot)

    3. #3
      Wanderer Merlock's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 2005
      Gender
      Location
      On a journey
      Posts
      2,039
      Likes
      4
      We aren't innately evil. There are indeed dark recesses that hide the darkest desires within the depths of one's mind but that isn't the "core".

      In essence, everyone is different. Regular dreams don't necessarily reflect one's desires at all. We dream of what concerns us or what we simply have on our minds. Doing something immoral in a lucid dream however is a different story. It means that a person can actually bring him/her self to doing that for someone with truly strong ideals and principles is disgusted by things that he/she finds evil/bad/immoral; truly naturally disgusted, and thus would never do such a thing, in an illusion or in reality.

      Apathy is rampant nowadays but it doesn't necessarily lead to becoming evil, it leads to become savage and all that it entails.

      All in all, being evil implies being completely self-consumed and self-centred, yearning for self-gain at any cost. But very few people live with such a mindframe, I imagine. We're social beings, we aren't meant to be alone.

    4. #4
      Your cat ate my baby Pyrofan1's Avatar
      Join Date
      Nov 2006
      Gender
      Posts
      720
      Likes
      3
      i said yes. i believe that most people are deep down inherently evil and the only thing that's keeping most people from showing it are the consequences.

    5. #5
      widdershins modality Achievements:
      1 year registered Created Dream Journal Made lots of Friends on DV Veteran First Class Tagger First Class Referrer Bronze 10000 Hall Points
      Taosaur's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jul 2004
      Gender
      Location
      Ohiopolis
      Posts
      4,843
      Likes
      1004
      DJ Entries
      19
      I side with H.H. The Dalai Lama--humans are essentially compassionate, but fear and craving twist us out of true. We're fascinated by violence because it's unusual, and perplexing.
      If you have a sense of caring for others, you will manifest a kind of inner strength in spite of your own difficulties and problems. With this strength, your own problems will seem less significant and bothersome to you. By going beyond your own problems and taking care of others, you gain inner strength, self-confidence, courage, and a greater sense of calm.Dalai Lama



    6. #6
      Worst title ever Grod's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 2007
      LD Count
      breathe for me
      Gender
      Location
      gliding in the absolute
      Posts
      3,550
      Likes
      194
      I think that humans are innately evil, in the rational sense of the word. We still have animal instincts such as greed, selfishness, and aggressiveness. We can suppress them, but down inside we still have those animal impulses. This is why communism doesn't work, because we are greedy.

    7. #7
      freefire FreeOne's Avatar
      Join Date
      Aug 2006
      Gender
      Location
      vapaa
      Posts
      1,501
      Likes
      10
      i said yes that humans are innately evil. We just are. However i do believe that we can change if we want to. If you decide you want to be good, then i believe that its possible to change yourself all the way through. Even to this "rotten core"
      Total lucid dreams=88
      LD goal: Master WILD
      http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x156/freefire_2007/mee-1.jpg
      ^me

      spam link removed
      ^that site is a great way to make extra cash.

    8. #8
      Worst title ever Grod's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 2007
      LD Count
      breathe for me
      Gender
      Location
      gliding in the absolute
      Posts
      3,550
      Likes
      194
      Quote Originally Posted by freefire View Post
      i said yes that humans are innately evil. We just are. However i do believe that we can change if we want to. If you decide you want to be good, then i believe that its possible to change yourself all the way through. Even to this "rotten core"
      I don't think so. An individual can't evolve.

    9. #9
      Ad absurdum Achievements:
      1 year registered 1000 Hall Points Made lots of Friends on DV Referrer Bronze Veteran First Class
      Spartiate's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jul 2007
      Gender
      Location
      Block 4500-7000
      Posts
      4,825
      Likes
      1113
      Quote Originally Posted by Oneironaut View Post
      I chose no for a few reasons. I think evil is, in itself, a human label. I don't think that there is anything that is objectively evil, and we are simply what we are. The things that we do that can be labelled as "evil" are only "evil" because of how we've come to define the word.
      My thoughts exactly. Evil is what you make of it.

    10. #10
      Seer of Visions Alban's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jul 2006
      Gender
      Location
      Certainly not on this planet.
      Posts
      327
      Likes
      1
      Humans aren't innately evil -
      they're innately misguided.

    11. #11
      Technique Warrior CrimsonWolf's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 2007
      Gender
      Location
      Sydney, Australia
      Posts
      289
      Likes
      0
      It's interesting how close the poll is so far. Still not sure who I agree with, but I think i'm leaning towards a "No" note. I think Alban summed it up well.

      "It's politics and money, therefore rational arguments are useless." - Moonbeam
      Lucid Dreams: 2 [DILDs: 2, WILDs: 0]

    12. #12
      I LOVE KAOSSILATOR Serkat's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 2005
      Posts
      2,609
      Likes
      2
      The idea of humans being innately evil is incredibly misguided.

      You are combining two of the biggest philosophical problems here:

      1. What is human nature?
      2. What is right and wrong?

      So it's really no wonder that you get extremely mixed views. My view in short is that human nature is inherently nice, compassionate and cooperative (result of evolution) and things such as selfishness are NOT evil but good (also the result of evolution). Since I believe that evolution is not inherently evil, but inherently awesome, I also conclude that humans are inherently awesome, since they're the best evolution has come up with so far.

      P.S. Nice Guys Finish First (doesn't hold true for dating though)

    13. #13
      Consciousness Itself Universal Mind's Avatar
      Join Date
      Apr 2004
      Gender
      Location
      Everywhere
      Posts
      12,871
      Likes
      1046
      If you define evil as "willing to hurt innocent others for selfish reasons", then I would say that all people have evil in them on some level, some more than others. I also think we are probably all born evil and that it is up to upbringing and other environmental factors to steer us away from our natural evil tendencies. If you drop a baby off in the deep wilderness and do absolutely nothing to raise him/her except to give the baby food and water until the baby is able to get food and water on its own, the baby is going to grow up to be one evil menace. If a human is not taught to be good, he/she will be evil. However, a person does not have to be taught to be evil. A person's initial nature that will remain unless molded away from it is, "I want that! I must get it! Me me me!"
      How do you know you are not dreaming right now?

    14. #14
      Worst title ever Grod's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 2007
      LD Count
      breathe for me
      Gender
      Location
      gliding in the absolute
      Posts
      3,550
      Likes
      194
      Quote Originally Posted by Korittke View Post
      2. What is right and wrong?
      Quote Originally Posted by Grod View Post
      I think that humans are innately evil, in the rational sense of the word.
      .

    15. #15
      Member Achievements:
      1 year registered Veteran First Class 5000 Hall Points

      Join Date
      Sep 2004
      Gender
      Location
      Seattle, WA
      Posts
      2,503
      Likes
      217
      Yeah, I said I'm not sure, simply because "evil" as a concept is man-made (some might think God made it up, but if you ask me, stated in the bible == man-made, so there ). Everyone has different definitions.

      Also, with the power of framing, you make good deeds sound "evil" and evil deeds sound "good". Ever notice that in most heated political debates, most people feel like the other side is doing obviously evil/harmful things? Eeeexactly

    16. #16
      I LOVE KAOSSILATOR Serkat's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 2005
      Posts
      2,609
      Likes
      2
      Quote Originally Posted by Grod View Post
      I think that humans are innately evil, in the rational sense of the word.
      What is the rational definition of evil, please?
      We still have animal instincts such as greed, selfishness, and aggressiveness. We can suppress them, but down inside we still have those animal impulses. This is why communism doesn't work, because we are greedy.

      I don't think so. An individual can't evolve.
      I think you image of human nature is very negative. Certainly you yourself have never changed in groundbreaking ways, otherwise you would know that this is indeed a perfectly possible aspect of human nature.

    17. #17
      Look away wendylove's Avatar
      Join Date
      Mar 2007
      Gender
      Location
      Secret forum
      Posts
      1,064
      Likes
      1
      I believe we are born with sin, however with the help of Jesus christ we can get rid of sin. So prey to jesus and be born again. You have two choices burn in hell or except jesus and live for ever.

      Jesus Christ loves you.
      Xaqaria
      The planet Earth exhibits all of these properties and therefore can be considered alive and its own single organism by the scientific definition.
      7. Reproduction: The ability to produce new organisms.
      does the planet Earth reproduce, well no unless you count the moon.

    18. #18
      Member
      Join Date
      Feb 2004
      Posts
      5,165
      Likes
      711
      I am going to have to disagree with most people here. I believe humans are Innately good. That most people are friendly, and wish to get along with each other and even want to help one another.

      I think its how and where they grow up which leans them down the wrong path however. For example if you drop a baby off in the deep wilderness and do absolutely nothing to raise him, he will turn out evil. I agree with him on that, but thats because its not natural. Basicly the baby would have to do anything it needed to survive and so it would learn to be evil in order to live. If the baby grows up in a good family, it will be a good person, not because the family molds him to be good, but because its the natural way for things to work.

      I guess I just view things differently. People naturally want to survive, they will do anything to survive. I believe once they have taken care of themself however, they will be happy to help the person next to them. People are not greedy, they are only trying to take care of themself. So its not so much what they do first, its what they do next. Once they have taken care of their own needs, do they continue to act selfish, or do they help others? I think deep down, most people will help others.

    19. #19
      Look away wendylove's Avatar
      Join Date
      Mar 2007
      Gender
      Location
      Secret forum
      Posts
      1,064
      Likes
      1
      For example if you drop a baby off in the deep wilderness and do absolutely nothing to raise him, he will turn out evil.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_child
      Sorry, but feral children do not turn out evil.

      Basicly the baby would have to do anything it needed to survive and so it would learn to be evil in order to live.
      Feral children are not evil.

      If the baby grows up in a good family, it will be a good person, not because the family molds him to be good, but because its the natural way for things to work.
      Their are many factors that make people good, not just family. If you live in a violent family or live with a greedy family it does not mean you will turn out greedy. A good example was Hitler he lived with a normal family and he turned out evil, however his farther was a good person and his mother.

      Again, goodness is complex and involves many factors.

      People naturally want to survive, they will do anything to survive.
      Not really. Again, people do sacrifice their lives to help save people. For example on Newnight(BBC news) they had a story about a old man risking his life to save a young girl. And the evolutionary biologist says that we have evolved past just thinking about ourselves and our own survival. Funny enough most people who sacrifice their lives say they think about their own family(the person in that case said he thought about his daughter when she was young). Another example is suicide bombers, note sucide bombers have the same motivitaion as people who sacrifice their lives i.e. a sense of belonging and family.
      Xaqaria
      The planet Earth exhibits all of these properties and therefore can be considered alive and its own single organism by the scientific definition.
      7. Reproduction: The ability to produce new organisms.
      does the planet Earth reproduce, well no unless you count the moon.

    20. #20
      Worst title ever Grod's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 2007
      LD Count
      breathe for me
      Gender
      Location
      gliding in the absolute
      Posts
      3,550
      Likes
      194
      Quote Originally Posted by Korittke View Post
      What is the rational definition of evil, please?
      Seriously. You know what I'm talking about, but you're just being difficult. Of course good and evil are subjective. I'm talking about "evil" in the sense of classic villians, like James Bond, and Indiana Jones, stuff like that. I'm using examples for lack of a definition. The way everyday people view "evil".
      Quote Originally Posted by Korittke View Post
      I think you image of human nature is very negative.
      This is true.
      Quote Originally Posted by Korittke View Post
      Certainly you yourself have never changed in groundbreaking ways, otherwise you would know that this is indeed a perfectly possible aspect of human nature.
      Where are you coming up with this?

    21. #21
      Wanderer Merlock's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 2005
      Gender
      Location
      On a journey
      Posts
      2,039
      Likes
      4
      Evil villains in fiction and thus evil people in general have perfectly good reasons to be evil and are not evil in their own eyes. They are either hurt by loneliness or by society in some way and want revenge, or they're greedy and power hungry in general, thus not caring who they harm or what they destroy on their way to their goals.

      People aren't like that naturally or else it would be the good people that would be rare like the villains and constantly overpowered by those that are evil. But malice arises from the innate nature of compassion and yearning for friendship/love.

      And it is indeed a perfectly possible aspect of human nature to change in a groundbreaking manner. Which is how anyone "evil" comes to be in the first place. After all, it takes a serious mental/emotional tremor for someone to turn genuinely evil. To turn from wanting friends and someone to love to wanting power and influence over others.

    22. #22
      Member
      Join Date
      Feb 2004
      Posts
      5,165
      Likes
      711
      Well there you go, you just gave even more example saying how people are naturally good.

    23. #23
      Member Jdeadevil's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 2007
      LD Count
      Can't remember
      Gender
      Location
      Lancashire, England
      Posts
      3,633
      Likes
      23
      Ofcourse we're evil. Humans have done these things in the past:

      • Eat animals
      • Eat our own species
      • Rape our own species, sometimes our young
      • Kill animals
      • Kill our own species, sometimes our young
      • Stalk other animals (webcam)
      • Fight with ourselves in war
      • Hang other evil people
      • Watch Big Brother (watch people locked in a house)
      • Make Global Warming
      • Play violant Video Games
      • Watch other people pretend to kill each other on TV
      • Still exist


      But if we're talking about lucid dreaming, then I just think it's something about freedom and us wanting to do stuff we coudn't do in real life, possible or not.

      Also "Original Sin" is something that jumped out at me. Just because it's the name of the final boss soundtrack from Final Fantasy X.

      "He who is the cause of someone else becoming powerful is the agent of his own destruction" - Ezio Auditore da Firenze (1459 - 1524)

      Dream Journal l Facebook

    24. #24
      Wanderer Merlock's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 2005
      Gender
      Location
      On a journey
      Posts
      2,039
      Likes
      4
      All those things are exceptions. At this moment in time within our modern society with our morals and conscious principles, we are not innately evil and the above list of things happen as violent exceptions from the norm. Hence, criminals.

      Evil will always be an exception. We are first and foremost social beings of compassion and care, which we yearn for of course but give out as well in return.
      Evil arises from being good. When someone good is hurt emotionally and grows bitter, vengeful, hateful. But that tendency doesn't make us innately evil.

    25. #25
      I LOVE KAOSSILATOR Serkat's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 2005
      Posts
      2,609
      Likes
      2
      Quote Originally Posted by Grod View Post
      classic villians, like James Bond, and Indiana Jones
      I'm not entirely sure we've seen the same movies here. Or I missed something.
      Where are you coming up with this?
      If you had experienced for yourself the possibility of personal change and growth you'd know from first-hand experience that your statement "An individual can't evolve" does not hold true.

    Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

    Bookmarks

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •