Are sentences long enough and are prisons really punishment?

[cuddleyperson]

Well two recent stories going on at the same time on BBC news right now got me thinking, I've noticed the first one for a long time now but the second was a surprise. I'm going to use this recent MURDER, as an example: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1770 Basically a 16yr old boy drowned because he got into an argument with three thugs. They accused him of stealing a friend bike or something, which right now seems he hadn't done. As a punishment they threw him into a small lake(clay pit filled with rain water), he wasn't a good swimmer and when he tried to climb out of the lake they used stick to poke him and force him back in, they also threw rocks at him while he was struggling to stay above water. After the short time he was out of his depth he drowned. The murders said that they didn't mean for him to die, yet they continued to harass him and prevent him getting out of the lake when he was clearly struggling to stay above water, so they killed him. They were sentences to 5 years in jail on a manslaughter charge, asd i said above it seems pretty obvious to me they knew what would happen. Even the idiotic pathetic yobs that are plaguing the UK right now should be able to work out: Kid drowning+ not letting him out of water+throwing rocks at him= dead kid I think the length of prison sentences in the UK are pathetic, as a family member of the boy said "I've seen burglars get higher sentences". The thing is, even if they didn't mean to kill him, just hurt bad badly, they took a life. Five years for taking a life in that way is a puny charge. On top of this is the recent news about incredibly "comfy" prisons in the UK. The fact that each prisoner has a TV, with digital channels, breakfast in bed and has easy access to drugs and even prostitutes being snook in. The recent news story told of a drug dealer who used a normal ladder to climb the small wooden fence, walked across the prison courtyard with no one questioning him, went up to a prisoners cell window and gave him drugs, contraband, a mobile and some other luxuries. The prisoners had a chance to escape with him but they actually turned it down saying " It's really comfy in here". This prison system is a joke, low sentences, nice places to carry out your jail time. I'm not surprised prisoners don't want to leave, in fact it's pretty cool if you do go and kill someone. Four-five years in jail, maybe less if i say it was an accident or i didn't mean it, 3 meals a day( more money is spent on prisoners meals then on NHS( hospital) meals), TV with a digi box, easy access to my mobile, drugs if i want them, other luxuries etc. I bet it's not like this in America, can someone explain the differences please. This seems like more of a rant in a way, i guess it is. But i just want discussion on the way our legal system is heading, here and in other countries, if you have similar problems.

[Alric]

Well the thing about the US is that it depends on where you live. Some places are a lot worse than others. I do remeber a while back on the news, where some guy raped a little kid, and ended up being sent to prison for 5 months. 5 months for rape! The little girl was like 10 or something too. A lot of places they worry about being sued so they give the prisoners all kind of nice stuff they probably should never get. Like the stuff they listed. Then at the same time you got jails full of gangs and they murder each other. So again it depends on where you go in the US. One thing that might be unique about here, is that we some time release people because our jails are over crowded. The courts say you have to spend 5 years in jail but you get out after one to save space.

[juroara]

I don't know what to say. Five years is short, but neither would I support life. Its a cruel joke, and a lot of times punks don't have a little voice in their head that says stop. When I was little, I was friends with this boy. I was the only girl on the block. All the other kids were boys. One day he gathered everyone, that is all the boys. There were about ten of them. He called me over, as if we were going to play a game of soccer. I was on my bike, and we lived at a dead end, so I was at the edge of a thick forest. Next thing I knew, they all started to toss rocks at me. They were big rocks, at least for my size at the time. I was on my bike though, and rode away as they chased me. Now on this street there is only one way out. Because on one end you have a thick forest with a speeding highway on its end (very thick, you can't run in it you have to weed your way through low bearing branches). Across from the houses on a steep hill you have a row of railroad tracks, five of them in a row. On the other end of street, where the street meets the rest of the neighborhood, you have a giant, massive hole in the earth. And this time of year that giant hole floods up and becomes a lake. I couldn't swim. The area is dangerous, with a steep slope on one end, with a daunting drop before you go splash. so it's fenced off with red warning signs. Of course, that doesn't stop the neighborhood from using it as a fun sled place in the winter, so theres a giant hole in the fence. I tried to ride out of the dead end. But there were more boys waiting for me. They blocked my way out of the dead end and cornered me up against the hole in the fence. Now I was surrounded by more than ten boys all screaming, shoving, pushing, and tossing rocks. They weren't really hurting me, just shoving me and shoving me closer and closer to the open fence. What would have happened if I went in the fenced off area? With a slippery edge, would the boys have thought it would be funny to push me in, or watch me slip? Would they laugh and toss more rocks? Since there were boys waiting for me on the other end, was that the whole idea to begin with? To have me run into the 'forbidden ditch'? Would they, even know what a drowning person looks like? Or just think I look stupid? Would any of the boys even know what to do if they realized I was drowning? Or would they just pathetically run home and pretend nothing happened? I run over a smaller boy and break free from the mob of boys. I don't remember all the details, or how hurt I was, only that I was crying so much my eyes burned. That night we crossed paths again on my front lawn and I remember the two of us were cursing and saying a lot of words kids should not be saying (I was in a new york suburb, go figure). I don't remember any of these events too clearly. But I remember, something about taking a shower with my clothes on because I was so soiled in mud. And I remember, one of my parents dragging my so called friend into the backyard - and his frantic screaming as he gets the beating of a lifetime. There are stupid people out there, who do stupid things to others, for stupid reasons, and they are so stupid, they think its funny. And you would think, they would understand that there is a limit. And you would think they would be more mature than a ten year old. That they would know that mixing A and B someone can die or get seriously hurt. But anger and stupid go hand in hand. And its not only till after are they like "shit, probably shouldn't have done that". And in many scenarios, that 'shit' moment, happens too late. And people have died from actions that seem other-worldly stupid and immature. This isn't the same as a cold blooded murder. But the lines do blur. And many many punks are as emotionally mature as a ten year old. As for jail. The american jail system borderlines human cruelty. There is no separation between murderers, rapists, drug dealers *dangerous* and people who have committed petty crimes and drug addicts *victims*. Those who have committed petty crimes become easy targets for the more deranged in jail. They are raped, abused and beaten. Ive seen a couple of true life in jail shows and I'm shocked at the activity that cops are allowed to do towards inmates. Or, the lack of cops at times. In one scenario they punish a misbehaving criminal by locking them up in a little room with no human contact for a period of time. One of them inmates had lost his cool, he has an anger management problem. So he gets into a fight with another inmate. As a result they lock him up. The guy is like on his knees begging don't do this to him, he can't go without human contact for so many months, thats crazy. As time passes a man with just an anger management problem slowly loses his mind as we witness him hallucinate. There are also still many many many cases in America where jails have a sanitation problem, an infestation of disease and harmful bacteria, dirty water and so on. Not to mention all the ass rape spreading STDs. There is also a problem with making the proper adjustments for inmates who are disabled.

[The Fishy]

Prisons are a joke. They've become so overly "lets not be nasty" you could forget why people are put in them. This is meant to be a form of punishment! And people are outraged at the thought of those poor murderers and rapists suffering. Obviously prison life is hard, but should these people really be getting Cable TV? By the way, what type of manslaughter did they get?

[Universal Mind]

Most of the people in prison do not see the experience as that different from their lives on the outside, except prison guarantees them food and shelter. The fact that they get to hang out with their thug friends makes prison much more appealing than otherwise. Prisoners should have to stay in a cell by themselves all day every day, and if they need exercise, they should use a cheap excercise bike that gets moved around all day. Thugs can't stand being by themselves. They depend on having people around them to have power struggles with. Without that, they feel/realize they are nothing. I really think the threat of being by themselves would have a whole lot more pieces of garbage trying to stay out of prison. The scum in the U.K. that drowned that boy would probably be found guilty of murder in the U.S. Even if it was not intentional, which it probably was, it was at least reckless, which can qualify somebody for a murder conviction. I hope they are killed in prison.

[Spartiate]

I never fully understood the purpose of incarceration, having law-abiding citizens pay to support criminals who give nothing back to society. Convicts should be put to work in forced labour camps.

[The Fishy]

Yeah, definitely - Under U.S. and U.K. law, if they had an intent to kill, guilty, and if they had an intent to commit grevious bodily harm, they're guilty. That's why I don't understand why they were given manslaughter. There are three types of manslaughter in English law - Gross Negligence Manslaughter, in which you violate or neglect a duty of care to someone resulting in death, Reckless Manslaughter which is a joke - it's never been charged in the U.K. as far as I know because no-one has a clue that the elements of the offence are, and Unlawful Act (Constructive) Manslaughter, in which someone is killed as a direct result of the defendant committing an unlawful act *that is dangerous*. A bit like felony murder, only the unlawful act can be a petty crime or even just an unlawful act that fits the description. Those are the types of involuntary manslaughter. The main types of voluntary manslaughter are: Provocation - in which the defendant is provoked and loses control, killing someone (the provocation must be enough for a hypothetical "reasonable man" to react in the same way). Diminshed Responsibility - when some factor such as abnormality of the mind substantially impairs his mental responsibility for is acts in doing or being party to a killing. There are few reasons, I've forgotten what they were, that fall under this type. Both of these defences just get murder reduced to manslaughter, I don't think you charge people with them. ... So yes, manslaughter seems odd.

[AmazeO XD]

United States prisons aren't a fucking cakewalk. It sounds like the UK prisons are nothing but a joke. Some of the sentences over here are decent, it depends upon the judge whose deciding. Anyways, the prison systems over here are fucking crazy. If you get sent to a maximum security prison with anything more than five years, you've got some chances of coming out alive, but.... Most people who gets life sentences don't care what they do in prison. They rape people, kill people, everyday. Why should they care? If it's a life sentence, they'll never leave that prison. In prisons over here, if someone finds out what you did and it's bad (like raping a small girl), they fuck those kind of guys up. They'll rape you and then cut you up. It's pretty hardcore.

[wasup]

Prisoners should have to stay in a cell by themselves all day every day, and if they need exercise, they should use a cheap excercise bike that gets moved around all day. I never fully understood the purpose of incarceration, having law-abiding citizens pay to support criminals who give nothing back to society. Convicts should be put to work in forced labour camps. Combine those two and have all convicts have to bike or something on a power generator to provide energy In honestly though any energy they would probably not even be enough to pay their own expenses off (the prison's expenses for them, that is). I agree that they should be put to work.

[skunk]

has any of you ever been to prison? or even jail? you couldn't truly understand it unless you've been there on the other side of the bars Most of the people in prison do not see the experience as that different from their lives on the outside, except prison guarantees them food and shelter. The fact that they get to hang out with their thug friends makes prison much more appealing than otherwise. Prisoners should have to stay in a cell by themselves all day every day, and if they need exercise, they should use a cheap excercise bike that gets moved around all day. Thugs can't stand being by themselves. They depend on having people around them to have power struggles with. Without that, they feel/realize they are nothing. I really think the threat of being by themselves would have a whole lot more pieces of garbage trying to stay out of prison prison is definitely not "hanging out with your thug friends" The scum in the U.K. that drowned that boy would probably be found guilty of murder in the U.S. Even if it was not intentional, which it probably was, it was at least reckless, which can qualify somebody for a murder conviction. I hope they are killed in prison. that's pretty rash, especially for believing that it was not intentional.

[The Fishy]

Excuse me. They threw a boy into a lake and pelted him with rocks when he tried to get out until he broke and drowned. You call this unintentinal?

[Alric]

At some point, it really doesn't matter if you mean it or not. There is a limit on how stupid you can be. Throwing rocks at a drowning person is very cruel, so we are not talking about nice people here. Their hateful and mean, and most importantly they are a danger to people around them. Jail is around for two reason. To punish, and to keep the people away from everyone else.

[skunk]

Excuse me. They threw a boy into a lake and pelted him with rocks when he tried to get out until he broke and drowned. You call this unintentinal? well actually I didn't know what story he was talking about, and I read it just now (at first I thought it was like a father who let his son drown accidentally or something). My comment was referring to the other poster who thought it was unintentional. In my perspective, they probably didn't want to kill the guy, but they probably only didn't want to kill him because of the consequences they would have to endure.. which they now have to. I think they're pretty fucking stupid for doing what they did, but I don't Hope they are killed in prison. I would never hope or wish death upon anyone.

[The Fishy]

It's not stupidity (though you have a point) - they weren't stupid, they just didn't intend to kill. They intended to greviously hurt. In English law that can be the same as an intent to kill. Of course, if they didn't, then you're right. They're pretty gaddamn stupid.

[skunk]

word up.. although I think that intending to greviously hurt someone, is pretty g'damn stupid. especially with their intentions. possibly stolen bike = death by drowning whilst being stoned? (and not the good kind of stoned) i dont think so

[Universal Mind]

prison is definitely not "hanging out with your thug friends" well actually I didn't know what story he was talking about, and I read it just now (at first I thought it was like a father who let his son drown accidentally or something). My comment was referring to the other poster who thought it was unintentional. In my perspective, they probably didn't want to kill the guy, but they probably only didn't want to kill him because of the consequences they would have to endure.. which they now have to. I think they're pretty fucking stupid for doing what they did, but I don't Hope they are killed in prison. I would never hope or wish death upon anyone. I didn't say it was unintentional. I said it was "at least reckless". Recklessness is not mere negligence. It is doing something like shooting at a bush when you know somebody is behind it or throwing a bowling ball off the second story of a mall when the first floor is crowded. In many U.S. states, it is treated the same as intent. The scum that was so reckles with or possibly even deliberately killed that guy in the U.K. (if they did not murder him intentionally) deserve the worst. I hope they die very painful deaths in prison.

[skunk]

I didn't say it was unintentional. I said it was "at least reckless". Recklessness is not mere negligence. It is doing something like shooting at a bush when you know somebody is behind it or throwing a bowling ball off the second story of a mall when the first floor is crowded. In many U.S. states, it is treated the same as intent. The scum that was so reckles with or possibly even deliberately killed that guy in the U.K. (if they did not murder him intentionally) deserve the worst. I hope they die very painful deaths in prison. okay, so you didn't say it was unintentional and you said it may be unintentional. so i was wrong on that. but still prison is most definitely not "hanging out with your thug friends" and if you seriously think that picture proves your point, then i don't know what to say. it's two inmates playing cards, there's not much else to do when you're locked up for most of the day. besides, do you know where that picture actually comes from? It could be of two inmates in jail as well as two inmates in prison.

[Universal Mind]

okay, so you didn't say it was unintentional and you said it may be unintentional. so i was wrong on that. but still prison is most definitely not "hanging out with your thug friends" and if you seriously think that picture proves your point, then i don't know what to say. it's two inmates playing cards, there's not much else to do when you're locked up for most of the day. besides, do you know where that picture actually comes from? It could be of two inmates in jail as well as two inmates in prison. I was not saying they hang out with each other all day. I was just saying hanging out with thug friends goes on in prison. It happens every day. That picture I posted was not meant to be an actual prison photo that proves thugs hang out together in prison. I was just illustrating an image that I know you know is real. Those are probably two actors or models or something, but prisoners do play cards, play basketball, lift weights, and socialize in prison during meals, yard time, and recreational activities, as well as in their cells. I think we should completely remove that element, and then prisoners will start taking prison a lot more seriously. As it is, the hardest criminals are not all that worried about prison. Threaten them with lives of solitude, and they will be.

[marlie]

Im English, and my brother was given a 3 yr prison sentance, he was out within 8 months and just on house arrest with a electronic tag for 6 months (which he ended up gettin off after 4 months) In the case of it being my brother i was obviously happy for him that he was let out so early but i dont think he should have been, when a prison sentance is dished out they have to have sufficient evidence that its justified... and unless there is new contradictory evidence that sentance should be carried out! He told me that whilst there he had use of a playstation 2 and a pool table in a communal room and countless dvds and a dvd player in his cell, He was allowed outside to smoke at leisure throughout the daytime, and at night after lights out he even asked the guards if he can have a smoke and they escorted him out for one a few times ( depending who was working) He also had acess to as many magazines and luxury items as people brought in for him on visiting days. He also told me that one of the other men there admitted to him that he purposley got himself put in prison because he was facing eviction from his home and was in debt... and figured at least he would have food and shelter for a few months. A couple of years ago a friend i went to school with was stabbed to death by her jealous bf while their 2 yr old daughter slept upstairs, his mother turned him in the same day after he confessed to her and he was released within a year because he claimed she had fought back and it had been a fair fight in which he had won. Bear in mind that she was about 5ft and weighed less than 100lbs ( my guess) and he was about 5ft11 and 210lbs... AND he had a weapon and she didnt... HOW THE FK IS THAT A FAIR FIGHT?? British prisons are a complete joke... i say bring back the death penalty to the uk.. to stop hardcore criminals draining our tax money on keeping them in comfortable lifestyles inside!

[wasup]

Ha, all this talk makes prison seem almost desireable, to be honest. I don't understand why all hobos and dying homeless people don't just steal shit and go to jail. The whole concept that you have absolutely no responsibilities, are fed and sheltered quite comfortably, and have access to books, the internet, entertainment, etc. is quite a pleasing idea. One time I entertained the thought of going to jail so I would have no pressures on me to do anything and I could spend all the time I wanted learning and such. When you think of it, jail is almost preferable to someone who wants to get an education or be an entrepeneur of sorts... spend a couple of years researching something in jail (assuming you have access to the internet). Or similarly, if you have your own internet business (such as coding, graphic designer, publisher, etc.) going to jail would cut off all of your expenses and allow for a great amount of income and expansion of your business. The only real negative side effect I see of jail, assuming the conditions are not poor, is that it is basically social suicide - people think of you differently, including employers and others who are selective in choosing between you and others. At any rate, I think it is "cruel and unusual" to not give people modern conveniences. I know what you are thinking "But it's a jail, not a damn hotel." I agree, somewhat. I still think it's okay for people to be given access to computers, the internet, a clean environment, a decent bed, Television+other forms of entertainment. That may seem like a bit much, but I think that those in prison should also be forced to do some sort of labor, to help pay for the prison system. Some sort of unskilled labor. Perhaps manual labor, but any other sort of thing would work as well. This is one of those issues I haven't really thought about to well, so I really haven't developed my opinions with the issue. But I am rather adament that we should not have bad conditions for the inmates. Remember "cruel and unusual" punishments are not constitutional, and for good measure.

[marlie]

Ha, all this talk makes prison seem almost desireable, to be honest. I don't understand why all hobos and dying homeless people don't just steal shit and go to jail. The whole concept that you have absolutely no responsibilities, are fed and sheltered quite comfortably, and have access to books, the internet, entertainment, etc. is quite a pleasing idea. One time I entertained the thought of going to jail so I would have no pressures on me to do anything and I could spend all the time I wanted learning and such. When you think of it, jail is almost preferable to someone who wants to get an education or be an entrepeneur of sorts... spend a couple of years researching something in jail (assuming you have access to the internet). Or similarly, if you have your own internet business (such as coding, graphic designer, publisher, etc.) going to jail would cut off all of your expenses and allow for a great amount of income and expansion of your business. The only real negative side effect I see of jail, assuming the conditions are not poor, is that it is basically social suicide - people think of you differently, including employers and others who are selective in choosing between you and others. At any rate, I think it is "cruel and unusual" to not give people modern conveniences. I know what you are thinking "But it's a jail, not a damn hotel." I agree, somewhat. I still think it's okay for people to be given access to computers, the internet, a clean environment, a decent bed, Television+other forms of entertainment. That may seem like a bit much, but I think that those in prison should also be forced to do some sort of labor, to help pay for the prison system. Some sort of unskilled labor. Perhaps manual labor, but any other sort of thing would work as well. This is one of those issues I haven't really thought about to well, so I really haven't developed my opinions with the issue. But I am rather adament that we should not have bad conditions for the inmates. Remember "cruel and unusual" punishments are not constitutional, and for good measure. I have to agree with you on the "treat em humanley at least" part of it, although my degree of compassion would probably drop in certain cases, A crime which didnt hurt or kill anyone intentionally dont really deserve to be treated badly ( after all they are serving the punishment bestowed on them.. ( its not like the judge sentenced em to ass raping and beatings) But my empathy level drops for say a child rapist or something... overall i like your way of thinking.. very intellegent post

[skunk]

I was not saying they hang out with each other all day. I was just saying hanging out with thug friends goes on in prison. It happens every day. That picture I posted was not meant to be an actual prison photo that proves thugs hang out together in prison. I was just illustrating an image that I know you know is real. Those are probably two actors or models or something, but prisoners do play cards, play basketball, lift weights, and socialize in prison during meals, yard time, and recreational activities, as well as in their cells. I think we should completely remove that element, and then prisoners will start taking prison a lot more seriously. As it is, the hardest criminals are not all that worried about prison. Threaten them with lives of solitude, and they will be. yeah, that is one way to handle it.. but remember that not just murderers are thrown into prison. and not all people put in there are truly guilty (sadly). so for your plan to work I think that prisons would have to be classified by charge.. and what you're proposing is basically solitaire confinement. And i'm not sure, but that might be torture or inhumane and thats probably why it doesn't happen. Regardless, being in prison sucks. Even in jail, you're stripped of your freedom.. and that's all that you want back once you're in there, especially when you really don't belong there (in my case it was). You're stripped of all your rights and freedom which I can say is the most horrible thing that has ever happened to me. I don't know what happened to innocent until proven guilty, I certainly felt none of that from any of the officers/sheriff's. Every single one of them but maybe 3 treated me like shit, and I was only there for 14 hours Non-violent crimes For the Loss

[ClouD]

True judgement comes from within. The real tragedy is the mind, and all else just a reflection.

[The Fishy]

True judgement comes from within. The real tragedy is the mind, and all else just a reflection. Could you explain that? Just a little vaugue. I don't have a problem with it, but I think you should at least try to explain it especially in "Extended Discussion" so that it doesn't look like random "spiritual" crap you just thought of and decided to use as spam. Not that I think you were doing that. On the general topic: "Cruel and unusual punishment" = what we call "torture" (e.g. when someone uses a pair of pliers to twist your nuts off and makes you eat them). I don't see how you can term "not giving people modern appliances" to be on the same level as my first example. These appliances start in prison as bonuses - they do not form the basis of "humane conditions". Yes, cleans cells, food and water, respecful treatment, these are all basic necessary conditions for it to deemed humane (and probably a few more that I forgot). But I don't think that prisoners should be given General Hospital as if it were a basic right they have. While of course prisons need to be humane, I have no sympathy for serious offenders. They especially deserve harsh conditions, more so than a watch-stealer, for instance, who will be getting the same conditions as them (I don't even believe that serious and petty offenders should EVER be in the same prisons). In general, I believe that people are over-emphasising what basic conditions are and forgetting what prisons are for - extreme punishment. P.S. - Solitary confinement IS torture, but I don't think that's exactly what UM was suggesting.

[ClouD]

A person's world [universe] is a reflection of their mind. They see what they see, and think what they think, but it is still just a reflection of their mind. Any reaction we have, contributes to another. No-one deserves to suffer, regardless of the circumstances given. I am saying it is not a tragedy that the person died. It is a tragedy that so many have to suffer from it. Add on top of that judgement and division, and you have a pool of egos passing judgement on both itselves and others. There is no judge other than yourself. The "criminals" judged themselves already, and no judge but them can decide and serve the "proper" sentence.