Thread: Why i think the USA won't Nuke or invade Iran

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Relying on effectively an untrained militia? Whilst numbers might be impressive, in reality, it'll mean shit. A professional soldier is far superior in terms of ability (even the common grunts), so that 'militia' comment doesn't really hold.

It does hold. Of course a trained military is much more skillful than citizens with guns. I am saying we have a nation of citizens with guns IN ADDITION to the best military in the world IN ADDITION to the ability to blow up the world dozens of times over. China will never invade us.

Originally Posted by dragonoverlord

The issue is more complicated then if they get in you're way you nuke them.

Like someone else said the USA's economy and Chinas economy are intertwined. I read somwhere in the next couple decades china will surpass canada as your biggest trading partner. You could seriously cripple the chinese economy by causing such instability in Iran, which would all most certainly not be good for the world economy especially your countries econommy since you are heavily indebted to china and you both thrive off trade with eachother.

Apparently you guys are borrwing lots of money from china to finance the iraq war, i dont think china will borrow you the money to invade one of their largest trading partners.

China knows that if they invaded us they would not have a country any more. It is never going to happen. And the fact that we have borrowed money from China to fight in Iraq does not mean we wouldn't have been able to do it without them.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

It does hold. Of course a trained military is much more skillful than citizens with guns. I am saying we have a nation of citizens with guns IN ADDITION to the best military in the world IN ADDITION to the ability to blow up the world dozens of times over. China will never invade us.

That is still quite the optimistic view on the whole thing. Your best military in the world claim may be so, BUT, a mass of armed citizens is no match for a potential large Chinese Army. China does also have plenty of aircraft, armour, etc, which would lay waste to any militia. Therefore, a militia, at best, would only manage to create small pockets of resistance in the face of a Chinese invasion.

I wouldn't make the claim that such a militia would be effective... I have much more confidence in the US army in it's ability to defend the country, since they have the equipment and coordination for effective defensive manoeuvres and counter-offensive. A militia is nothing in comparison to the army.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

That is still quite the optimistic view on the whole thing. Your best military in the world claim may be so, BUT, a mass of armed citizens is no match for a potential large Chinese Army. China does also have plenty of aircraft, armour, etc, which would lay waste to any militia. Therefore, a militia, at best, would only manage to create small pockets of resistance in the face of a Chinese invasion.

I wouldn't make the claim that such a militia would be effective... I have much more confidence in the US army in it's ability to defend the country, since they have the equipment and coordination for effective defensive manoeuvres and counter-offensive. A militia is nothing in comparison to the army.

The armed citizenry would make a very good addition. When the Chinese military tries to go into houses, they get shot. They would have a whole lot of extra bullets coming at them every time they go into populated areas. It would add a whole new dimension to the situation. 200 and whatever million people with guns would not be a cake walk for any military, especially when they are preoccupied with fighting the U.S. military and all of our allies. I don't think the U.S. citizenry would be able to come close to defeating the Chinese military by themselves, but they would add a great deal more trouble to the Chinese military's efforts against our military and allies. More than 200 million pissed off people with guns would be a an enormous problem for any military, and I am only talking about a bonus.

Besides by the time China invades all the militia memebers in the US will be in jail for terrorism. Militia's are practically illegal in this country.

Originally Posted by Alric

Besides by the time China invades all the militia memebers in the US will be in jail for terrorism. Militia's are practically illegal in this country.

Militias are legal under the right to assemble in the Bill of Rights. They are also mentioned in the Second Amendment as a justification. Also, nobody would go to jail for shooting at Chinese soldiers if they came here and tried to take over.

I am not talking about organized militias any way. I am talking about me, you, and every other citizen who knows how to shoot a gun getting guns from under our beds, from friends, or from gun stores and going out and shooting every Chinese soldier we see. It would make the insurgency in Iraq look like a few angry three year olds.

Unfortunately, whats legal under the bill of rights, isn't always the same as whats legal. Our government violates peoples rights all the time.

I know your talking about just people in general. The reason I bring up the organized people, is because they normally have bigger guns, some of which may actually help a lot if fighting an army. Except they get arrested all the time, and they get their guns stolen by the government.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

The armed citizenry would make a very good addition. When the Chinese military tries to go into houses, they get shot. They would have a whole lot of extra bullets coming at them every time they go into populated areas. It would add a whole new dimension to the situation. 200 and whatever million people with guns would not be a cake walk for any military, especially when they are preoccupied with fighting the U.S. military and all of our allies. I don't think the U.S. citizenry would be able to come close to defeating the Chinese military by themselves, but they would add a great deal more trouble to the Chinese military's efforts against our military and allies. More than 200 million pissed off people with guns would be a an enormous problem for any military, and I am only talking about a bonus.

That is still the optimistic claim. You'd have to assume whole families are willing to risk their lives in order to shoot some Chinese soldiers. At most, it'll be people evacuating to safer areas, using the weapons they have as a means of defense, as opposed to acting as a resistance force. The percentage that would stick around to shoot would only be a small part of that 200 million, which is why I said that at best, they would only create small pockets of resistance.

The US military would be able to stop such a theoretical invasion, and be able to do so without resorting to nukes. However, do not underestimate the Chinese forces, because they are still formidable, in any case. That is all.

Damn... now I feel like playing a strategy game... where's my pc and games when I need them!

Originally Posted by bluefinger

That is still the optimistic claim. You'd have to assume whole families are willing to risk their lives in order to shoot some Chinese soldiers. At most, it'll be people evacuating to safer areas, using the weapons they have as a means of defense, as opposed to acting as a resistance force. The percentage that would stick around to shoot would only be a small part of that 200 million, which is why I said that at best, they would only create small pockets of resistance.

The US military would be able to stop such a theoretical invasion, and be able to do so without resorting to nukes. However, do not underestimate the Chinese forces, because they are still formidable, in any case. That is all.

We have 300 million people living in the country. I said 200 and whatever million just to take into account that some people would not fight. An invasion would have most of the country fighting, I am pretty sure. That is how Americans think. A lot of people would retreat and have weapons as a means of defense, but they would shoot as soon as they saw the Chinese soldiers, which probably would happen on their way to whatever places they think are retreats. But more importantly, our military would drive the Chinese out in a hurry. The point is that China knows better than to invade us.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

We have 300 million people living in the country. I said 200 and whatever million just to take into account that some people would not fight. An invasion would have most of the country fighting, I am pretty sure. That is how Americans think. A lot of people would retreat and have weapons as a means of defense, but they would shoot as soon as they saw the Chinese soldiers, which probably would happen on their way to whatever places they think are retreats. But more importantly, our military would drive the Chinese out in a hurry. The point is that China knows better than to invade us.

And yet the US military is considering to invade Iran, despite being stretch enough as it is in Iraq and Afghanistan. So yeah, China knows better not invade... yet. DUM DUM DUMM!! D:

Personally, I wouldn't advocate that armed citizenry would fight like you describe. If the Chinese are clever enough with their manoeuvres, they'll simply send a good amount of armour along with any troops, in which armed citizens will stand no chance. That or aerial bombardments, a tactic used by the US quite a lot. In other words, apply just enough pressure to crack any resistance of that sort. And if they really paid attention to The Art Of War, always leave a means of escape for the enemy, which in this case would be those armed citizens. Because then the citizens are presented with the choice of either 1) Dying, 2)Escaping to live and possibly fight another day, and I'm very sure that most would pick the latter when presented with the two options. Only the most diehard of your citizens would pick the former.

However, if I were trying to get armed citizens to fight, I would present a situation were no matter where they go, they'll face death. In this situation, people become desperate and will do anything to live. This mentality would then create such a headache for any invading army, that they would have to resort to extreme measures in order to quell such resistance. Not exactly a great thing to do, but nothing is quite as dangerous as a desperate person. Something used to great effect by the Japanese in WW2 (the whole kamikaze thing).

However, yeah, the US military would probably be a very tough nut to crack for any invading force, but armed citizens would be the least of worries.

Didn't the US recently fail to find any evidence of a modern nuclear weaponry programme in Iran? And didn't Bush simply refute the findings?

Edit: Mhm.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3228400.stm

It's Iraq all over again, except this time they actually know there's no WoMD. Disgusting.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

And yet the US military is considering to invade Iran, despite being stretch enough as it is in Iraq and Afghanistan. So yeah, China knows better not invade... yet. DUM DUM DUMM!! D:

Don't forget about the nukes. We would rather commit suicide than be taken over. China will never take over the United States. That might be bad news for some people, but it is the truth.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Personally, I wouldn't advocate that armed citizenry would fight like you describe. If the Chinese are clever enough with their manoeuvres, they'll simply send a good amount of armour along with any troops, in which armed citizens will stand no chance. That or aerial bombardments, a tactic used by the US quite a lot. In other words, apply just enough pressure to crack any resistance of that sort. And if they really paid attention to The Art Of War, always leave a means of escape for the enemy, which in this case would be those armed citizens. Because then the citizens are presented with the choice of either 1) Dying, 2)Escaping to live and possibly fight another day, and I'm very sure that most would pick the latter when presented with the two options. Only the most diehard of your citizens would pick the former.

However, if I were trying to get armed citizens to fight, I would present a situation were no matter where they go, they'll face death. In this situation, people become desperate and will do anything to live. This mentality would then create such a headache for any invading army, that they would have to resort to extreme measures in order to quell such resistance. Not exactly a great thing to do, but nothing is quite as dangerous as a desperate person. Something used to great effect by the Japanese in WW2 (the whole kamikaze thing).

However, yeah, the US military would probably be a very tough nut to crack for any invading force, but armed citizens would be the least of worries.

Yes, armed citizens would be a much smaller worry than the U.S. military and our nukes. But you just named two things that the armed citizenry would/could greatly affect. You talked about the possibility of the Chinese turning the whole thing into an air raid. That would qualify as having a pretty big effect, don't you think? Then our military would handle them from the ground, from the sky, and from space. You also talked about how the Chinese soldiers would have to wrap themselves all up in armor. That would get pretty expensive and disrupt their efficiency. That too would be a major effect. Then they would have more than 200 million people shooting at them during an onset of mass production of armor piercing bullets, bombs, rocket launchers, you name it. There is no way that big of an citizen counterattack would not be significant. Do you think the insurgency in Iraq is something to deal with? Of course it is. Multiply that factor by about a hundred. That would be a nice bonus to the best military in the world and enough nukes to turn China into a black spot on the map the day they invade.

Originally Posted by Xei

Didn't the US recently fail to find any evidence of a modern nuclear weaponry programme in Iran? And didn't Bush simply refute the findings?

Edit: Mhm.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3228400.stm

It's Iraq all over again, except this time they actually know there's no WoMD. Disgusting.

I have only heard Bush say that Iran is working on nuclear technology for what they claim is energy oriented and that we can't even allow that. We are not going to invade Iran based on what is happening right now. The threat concerns what they might end up doing. Iran with nukes is out of the question.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Universal Mind is absolutely correct. Like I said before, I'm trained to go. If it goes down like that, better believe I'm Cocked Blocked and ready to Rock! If I happen to go down, Oh turst me I'm taking a dozen or so with me. Thats on the Forealla!

I will be sniping from very unexpected places with rocket launchers and bombs. You can count on it. Imagine 200 million of us doing that while the other 100 million are armed for self-defense.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

We have 300 million people living in the country. I said 200 and whatever million just to take into account that some people would not fight. An invasion would have most of the country fighting, I am pretty sure. That is how Americans think. A lot of people would retreat and have weapons as a means of defense, but they would shoot as soon as they saw the Chinese soldiers, which probably would happen on their way to whatever places they think are retreats. But more importantly, our military would drive the Chinese out in a hurry. The point is that China knows better than to invade us.

Universal Mind is absolutely correct. Like I said before, I'm trained to go. If it goes down like that, better believe I'm Cocked Blocked and ready to Rock! If I happen to go down, Oh turst me I'm taking a dozen or so with me. Thats on the Forealla!

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Universal Mind is absolutely correct. Like I said before, I'm trained to go. If it goes down like that, better believe I'm Cocked Blocked and ready to Rock! If I happen to go down, Oh turst me I'm taking a dozen or so with me. Thats on the Forealla!

I dont think you'll do much better then a suicide bomber lol.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

China knows that if they invaded us they would not have a country any more. It is never going to happen. And the fact that we have borrowed money from China to fight in Iraq does not mean we wouldn't have been able to do it without them.

Im not suggesting China would try to invade you, actually thats the last thing i think china would do. Im not sure what china would if the USA nuked or bombed Iran,Its hard to guess but i don't think the USA will bomb or invade iran in the first place because a chinese military base inside its territory would be a deterent enough for america plus the fact that economically/financially america needs China. HOw much money do you guys own china again? 9 trillion dollars?

Originally Posted by dragonoverlord

Im not suggesting China would try to invade you, actually thats the last thing i think china would do. Im not sure what china would if the USA nuked or bombed Iran,Its hard to guess but i don't think the USA will bomb or invade iran in the first place because a chinese military base inside its territory would be a deterent enough for america plus the fact that economically/financially america needs China. HOw much money do you guys own china again? 9 trillion dollars?

If we invade Iran, it will most likely not happen in the way we invaded Iraq. It would probably involve a bombing of key military and other government sites. We would definitely bomb a nuke facility if they ever get one going. If we have to move in and take over, I'm sure we will tell China ahead of time and leave their base alone if they ever have a base there.

Our debt to China is about 300 billion dollars. 9 trillion is our overall national debt.

China is not the only part of the picture, of course. Virtually every industrialized nation would be affected negatively by the economic fallout. Trade sanctions would be the most likely, and, I'd imagine, most effective, retaliation. Japan could be an even more worrisome economic adversary than China, though, since Japan holds ~$800 billion in US debt.

So far, however, only the immediate consequences of an attack have been considered. I can only imagine how catastrophic the US response to sanctions would be to the US,