Thread: Why i think the USA won't Nuke or invade Iran

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

The armed citizenry would make a very good addition. When the Chinese military tries to go into houses, they get shot. They would have a whole lot of extra bullets coming at them every time they go into populated areas. It would add a whole new dimension to the situation. 200 and whatever million people with guns would not be a cake walk for any military, especially when they are preoccupied with fighting the U.S. military and all of our allies. I don't think the U.S. citizenry would be able to come close to defeating the Chinese military by themselves, but they would add a great deal more trouble to the Chinese military's efforts against our military and allies. More than 200 million pissed off people with guns would be a an enormous problem for any military, and I am only talking about a bonus.

That is still the optimistic claim. You'd have to assume whole families are willing to risk their lives in order to shoot some Chinese soldiers. At most, it'll be people evacuating to safer areas, using the weapons they have as a means of defense, as opposed to acting as a resistance force. The percentage that would stick around to shoot would only be a small part of that 200 million, which is why I said that at best, they would only create small pockets of resistance.

The US military would be able to stop such a theoretical invasion, and be able to do so without resorting to nukes. However, do not underestimate the Chinese forces, because they are still formidable, in any case. That is all.

Damn... now I feel like playing a strategy game... where's my pc and games when I need them!

Originally Posted by bluefinger

That is still the optimistic claim. You'd have to assume whole families are willing to risk their lives in order to shoot some Chinese soldiers. At most, it'll be people evacuating to safer areas, using the weapons they have as a means of defense, as opposed to acting as a resistance force. The percentage that would stick around to shoot would only be a small part of that 200 million, which is why I said that at best, they would only create small pockets of resistance.

The US military would be able to stop such a theoretical invasion, and be able to do so without resorting to nukes. However, do not underestimate the Chinese forces, because they are still formidable, in any case. That is all.

We have 300 million people living in the country. I said 200 and whatever million just to take into account that some people would not fight. An invasion would have most of the country fighting, I am pretty sure. That is how Americans think. A lot of people would retreat and have weapons as a means of defense, but they would shoot as soon as they saw the Chinese soldiers, which probably would happen on their way to whatever places they think are retreats. But more importantly, our military would drive the Chinese out in a hurry. The point is that China knows better than to invade us.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

We have 300 million people living in the country. I said 200 and whatever million just to take into account that some people would not fight. An invasion would have most of the country fighting, I am pretty sure. That is how Americans think. A lot of people would retreat and have weapons as a means of defense, but they would shoot as soon as they saw the Chinese soldiers, which probably would happen on their way to whatever places they think are retreats. But more importantly, our military would drive the Chinese out in a hurry. The point is that China knows better than to invade us.

And yet the US military is considering to invade Iran, despite being stretch enough as it is in Iraq and Afghanistan. So yeah, China knows better not invade... yet. DUM DUM DUMM!! D:

Personally, I wouldn't advocate that armed citizenry would fight like you describe. If the Chinese are clever enough with their manoeuvres, they'll simply send a good amount of armour along with any troops, in which armed citizens will stand no chance. That or aerial bombardments, a tactic used by the US quite a lot. In other words, apply just enough pressure to crack any resistance of that sort. And if they really paid attention to The Art Of War, always leave a means of escape for the enemy, which in this case would be those armed citizens. Because then the citizens are presented with the choice of either 1) Dying, 2)Escaping to live and possibly fight another day, and I'm very sure that most would pick the latter when presented with the two options. Only the most diehard of your citizens would pick the former.

However, if I were trying to get armed citizens to fight, I would present a situation were no matter where they go, they'll face death. In this situation, people become desperate and will do anything to live. This mentality would then create such a headache for any invading army, that they would have to resort to extreme measures in order to quell such resistance. Not exactly a great thing to do, but nothing is quite as dangerous as a desperate person. Something used to great effect by the Japanese in WW2 (the whole kamikaze thing).

However, yeah, the US military would probably be a very tough nut to crack for any invading force, but armed citizens would be the least of worries.

Didn't the US recently fail to find any evidence of a modern nuclear weaponry programme in Iran? And didn't Bush simply refute the findings?

Edit: Mhm.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3228400.stm

It's Iraq all over again, except this time they actually know there's no WoMD. Disgusting.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

And yet the US military is considering to invade Iran, despite being stretch enough as it is in Iraq and Afghanistan. So yeah, China knows better not invade... yet. DUM DUM DUMM!! D:

Don't forget about the nukes. We would rather commit suicide than be taken over. China will never take over the United States. That might be bad news for some people, but it is the truth.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Personally, I wouldn't advocate that armed citizenry would fight like you describe. If the Chinese are clever enough with their manoeuvres, they'll simply send a good amount of armour along with any troops, in which armed citizens will stand no chance. That or aerial bombardments, a tactic used by the US quite a lot. In other words, apply just enough pressure to crack any resistance of that sort. And if they really paid attention to The Art Of War, always leave a means of escape for the enemy, which in this case would be those armed citizens. Because then the citizens are presented with the choice of either 1) Dying, 2)Escaping to live and possibly fight another day, and I'm very sure that most would pick the latter when presented with the two options. Only the most diehard of your citizens would pick the former.

However, if I were trying to get armed citizens to fight, I would present a situation were no matter where they go, they'll face death. In this situation, people become desperate and will do anything to live. This mentality would then create such a headache for any invading army, that they would have to resort to extreme measures in order to quell such resistance. Not exactly a great thing to do, but nothing is quite as dangerous as a desperate person. Something used to great effect by the Japanese in WW2 (the whole kamikaze thing).

However, yeah, the US military would probably be a very tough nut to crack for any invading force, but armed citizens would be the least of worries.

Yes, armed citizens would be a much smaller worry than the U.S. military and our nukes. But you just named two things that the armed citizenry would/could greatly affect. You talked about the possibility of the Chinese turning the whole thing into an air raid. That would qualify as having a pretty big effect, don't you think? Then our military would handle them from the ground, from the sky, and from space. You also talked about how the Chinese soldiers would have to wrap themselves all up in armor. That would get pretty expensive and disrupt their efficiency. That too would be a major effect. Then they would have more than 200 million people shooting at them during an onset of mass production of armor piercing bullets, bombs, rocket launchers, you name it. There is no way that big of an citizen counterattack would not be significant. Do you think the insurgency in Iraq is something to deal with? Of course it is. Multiply that factor by about a hundred. That would be a nice bonus to the best military in the world and enough nukes to turn China into a black spot on the map the day they invade.

Originally Posted by Xei

Didn't the US recently fail to find any evidence of a modern nuclear weaponry programme in Iran? And didn't Bush simply refute the findings?

Edit: Mhm.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3228400.stm

It's Iraq all over again, except this time they actually know there's no WoMD. Disgusting.

I have only heard Bush say that Iran is working on nuclear technology for what they claim is energy oriented and that we can't even allow that. We are not going to invade Iran based on what is happening right now. The threat concerns what they might end up doing. Iran with nukes is out of the question.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Universal Mind is absolutely correct. Like I said before, I'm trained to go. If it goes down like that, better believe I'm Cocked Blocked and ready to Rock! If I happen to go down, Oh turst me I'm taking a dozen or so with me. Thats on the Forealla!

I will be sniping from very unexpected places with rocket launchers and bombs. You can count on it. Imagine 200 million of us doing that while the other 100 million are armed for self-defense.

I'm still confused, where does right wing belief come from that we're going to be invaded by China? They're one of our biggest allies, our economy is tied very tightly with theirs, and vise versa. There aren't 200 million people with guns in the US, in most [northern] large cities guns are illegal and a large percentage of Americans live in those cities.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

I'm still confused, where does right wing belief come from that we're going to be invaded by China? They're one of our biggest allies, our economy is tied very tightly with theirs, and vise versa.

I don't think it's a right wing belief. It's more like an Art Bell radio show belief, like 12/21/12.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

There aren't 200 million people with guns in the US, in most [northern] large cities guns are illegal and a large percentage of Americans live in those cities.

You apparently haven't read all I've said. If we got invaded by China, there would THEN be more than 200 million people with guns. There are enough guns in this country for everybody to have a few, and we have factories. The Second Amendment guarantees the right to bear arms (have guns), so guns are not supposed to be banned in any city. There are just registration complications in a lot of places. Also, people could go to other places to buy them, including the underground markets.

I think the armed citizenry issue is being harped on way too much in this thread. I said it would be a bonus to our military power and our nuke potential. It would be a small factor compared to the other two deterrents, but it would still be signficant. I never once said it is the biggest deterrent factor. Next topic please.

Like I said earlier; in this situation, a Chinese invasion of the U.S. due to our handling of Iran is a non-issue. I see no reason why they would not back us in any military effort we may decide to make.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

The Second Amendment guarantees the right to bear arms (have guns), so guns are not supposed to be banned in any city.

The second amendment gives the states the right to have a militia to fight back an overbearing government, you need to look at the bill of rights.

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

If the people want to ban guns from their city it's perfectly legal to do so, it severely drops the rate of violent crimes. There are more than this, but the following cities have gun bans: NYC, Jersey City, Newark, Albany. It is illegal to own any kind of firearm in any of them.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Don't forget about the nukes. We would rather commit suicide than be taken over. China will never take over the United States. That might be bad news for some people, but it is the truth.

And so make your own land inhabitable for thousands and thousands of years? Sounds like a bastion of reason here [/sarcasm]

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Yes, armed citizens would be a much smaller worry than the U.S. military and our nukes. But you just named two things that the armed citizenry would/could greatly affect. You talked about the possibility of the Chinese turning the whole thing into an air raid. That would qualify as having a pretty big effect, don't you think? Then our military would handle them from the ground, from the sky, and from space. You also talked about how the Chinese soldiers would have to wrap themselves all up in armor. That would get pretty expensive and disrupt their efficiency. That too would be a major effect. Then they would have more than 200 million people shooting at them during an onset of mass production of armor piercing bullets, bombs, rocket launchers, you name it. There is no way that big of an citizen counterattack would not be significant. Do you think the insurgency in Iraq is something to deal with? Of course it is. Multiply that factor by about a hundred. That would be a nice bonus to the best military in the world and enough nukes to turn China into a black spot on the map the day they invade.

You are still working on assumptions that everyone is as zealously opposed any sort of invasion like you. Insurgents are actually trained rebels, not citizens here, so of course they would be effective. A citizen may have done hunting or did some shooting at a range, but when push comes to shove and that citizen, along with many others, is on the receiving end of Chinese military manoeuvre, most would flee for their lives. Not many people would stick around to cause trouble.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I have only heard Bush say that Iran is working on nuclear technology for what they claim is energy oriented and that we can't even allow that. We are not going to invade Iran based on what is happening right now. The threat concerns what they might end up doing. Iran with nukes is out of the question.

And yet Israel, Pakistan, and India have nuclear capability, of which the latter two don't exactly have great relations? Hmmm... something is just not right here.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I will be sniping from very unexpected places with rocket launchers and bombs. You can count on it. Imagine 200 million of us doing that while the other 100 million are armed for self-defense.

Funnily enough, I have a marksmanship award for use of a .22 rifle, but they are really useless unless aimed at the head. 200 million is still a completely outrageous claim, and unfortunately, this is boiling down to over-zealous patriotism, something quite humorously satirised in Starship Troopers. Nukes would be out of the question as a defensive measure, and even using them in retaliation to an invasion would get Russia and other nations screaming "NUKE FIGHT!!!!1!11 LOLOLOLOLOL". Which of course, would lead to complete, worldwide obliteration.

I do hope most of that is done in jest, otherwise it is quite the disturbing revelation.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

And so make your own land inhabitable for thousands and thousands of years? Sounds like a bastion of reason here [/sarcasm]

"Sarcasm", huh? We heard it there first. May the games begin.

No, we are all for just allowing a communist government to take us over. We'll roll over and be their bitches if they make us. Americans don't believe in dying for freedom. [sarcasm]

Originally Posted by bluefinger

You are still working on assumptions that everyone is as zealously opposed any sort of invasion like you. Insurgents are actually trained rebels, not citizens here, so of course they would be effective. A citizen may have done hunting or did some shooting at a range, but when push comes to shove and that citizen, along with many others, is on the receiving end of Chinese military manoeuvre, most would flee for their lives. Not many people would stick around to cause trouble.

You apparently don't know Americans very well, even if you do live "here". Where do you live? It says the UK in your profile. How is that "here"?

A lot of our population is ex-military, a whole lot of it is redneck nut job with guns, a great deal of it is ghetto gangster with guns, and most of the rest worship our country as if it is a god, and it wouldn't take a long time to learn how to shoot a gun and blow up a bomb. It's not rocket science. We have a culture that places freedom above life itself. It is like a religion here. It is what we were founded on, and it is what gave us the determination to drive England the Hell out of here with such a small number of troops and armed citizens. There would be a world record citizen backlash in the midst of a Chinese invasion of the United States. You can bet the farm on that one.

I don't understand why you are so Hell bent on the armed citizenry part any way. I said it would be a bonus. Even if only twenty million people took up their own arms, which is a vast underestimate, that would definitely be a big time bonus, as illustrated by what you said about driving the Chinese into the sky and making them all completely cover themselves in armor. You did suggest both of those, didn't you? What is many times bigger is our military factor. So is our nuke deterrent.

The Chinese will never invade us. Accept it even if you don't like it.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

And yet Israel, Pakistan, and India have nuclear capability, of which the latter two don't exactly have great relations? Hmmm... something is just not right here.

Can they blow up an entire country within thirty minutes, and when was the last time one of them tried to completely take over one of the other ones you named? Something is not right with your analogy.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

I have a marksmanship award for use of a .22 rifle

Holy shit. Remind me not to fuck with YOU.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

but they are really useless unless aimed at the head.

Hopefully other types of guns will be invented some day.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

200 million is still a completely outrageous claim, and unfortunately, this is boiling down to over-zealous patriotism, something quite humorously satirised in Starship Troopers.

This isn't France. Guns are legal and majorly abundant here, and being taken over by a government that is here to oppress us and not help us would have the masses going ape shit like nothing that has ever happened on this planet. Perhaps you should study something other than Starship Troopers to understand that aspect of reality.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Nukes would be out of the question as a defensive measure, and even using them in retaliation to an invasion would get Russia and other nations screaming "NUKE FIGHT!!!!1!11 LOLOLOLOLOL". Which of course, would lead to complete, worldwide obliteration.

We will turn China into a black spot on the map if that's what it takes to prevent being taken over by them. What Russia does is their thing. China does not want to even roll dice with the nuke fight scenario. They are not going to invade us. It is a fact. Sorry to disappoint you.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

I do hope most of that is done in jest, otherwise it is quite the disturbing revelation.

Please say that again, but with fewer pronouns.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

"Sarcasm", huh? We heard it there first. May the games begin.

No, we are all for just allowing a communist government to take us over. We'll roll over and be their bitches if they make us. Americans don't believe in dying for freedom. [sarcasm]

Okay, I get it, but still.. what's the point of nuking your own land just to prevent an invasion? It just isn't logical.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

You apparently don't know Americans very well, even if you do live "here". Where do you live? It says the UK in your profile. How is that "here"?

Sorry, I didn't phrase that sentence correctly. What I meant to say was that Insurgents are mostly rebels or 'terrorists' that have had training in guerilla warfare, etc, hence their current effectiveness in the Iraq war. Citizens, at most, form untrained militias, of which their effectiveness varies. I hope that clears things up. Oh, just an FYI, I simply live in the UK, my nationality is not English.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

A lot of our population is ex-military, a whole lot of it is redneck nut job with guns, a great deal of it is ghetto gangster with guns, and most of the rest worship our country as if it is a god, and it wouldn't take a long time to learn how to shoot a gun and blow up a bomb. It's not rocket science. We have a culture that places freedom above life itself. It is like a religion here. It is what we were founded on, and it is what gave us the determination to drive England the Hell out of here with such a small number of troops and armed citizens. There would be a world record citizen backlash in the midst of a Chinese invasion of the United States. You can bet the farm on that one.

Noted, but nonetheless... people would still try to move away from danger and peril. Of course, there would be numerous people who would stick around, but it would only be a fraction of the majority.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I don't understand why you are so Hell bent on the armed citizenry part any way. I said it would be a bonus. Even if only twenty million people took up their own arms, which is a vast underestimate, that would definitely be a big time bonus, as illustrated by what you said about driving the Chinese into the sky and making them all completely cover themselves in armor. You did suggest both of those, didn't you? What is many times bigger is our military factor. So is our nuke deterrent.

The Chinese will never invade us. Accept it even if you don't like it.

In war, numbers confer little advantage. Considering any armed force is vastly better supplied than maybe 20 million armed citizens, even those twenty million aren't much in the face of a sustained conflict.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Can they blow up an entire country within thirty minutes, and when was the last time one of them tried to completely take over one of the other ones you named? Something is not right with your analogy.

I haven't seen Iran do much other than blow a whole load of smoke, of which the US administration has done nothing but respond to obvious provocations. Plus, making a comment such as "Can they blow up an entire country within thirty minutes?" is not exactly a positive thing to boast about.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Holy shit. Remind me not to fuck with YOU.

My sarcasm meter just went off the scale... heh, I only made that as a comment, not to boast about it like a pissing contest.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Hopefully other types of guns will be invented some day.

And now my sarcasm meter has imploded... just too much sarcasm for it to handle.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

This isn't France. Guns are legal and majorly abundant here, and being taken over by a government that is here to oppress us and not help us would have the masses going ape shit like nothing that has ever happened on this planet. Perhaps you should study something other than Starship Troopers to understand that aspect of reality.

Please, don't assume ignorance just because I made reference to only one thing. I'm not assuming you're stupid, I'm just curious as to all the assertions you have made.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

We will turn China into a black spot on the map if that's what it takes to prevent being taken over by them. What Russia does is their thing. China does not want to even roll dice with the nuke fight scenario. They are not going to invade us. It is a fact. Sorry to disappoint you.

Relying on nukes as a deterrent is fairly weak, to be honest. Besides, this is a theoretical discussion on the highly unlikely scenario of a chinese invasion on the US, and China and the US have strong economic ties anyway, so neither would consider an invasion, nor nuking the shit out of the other.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Please say that again, but with fewer pronouns.

"I hope most of what is said here is said in a light-hearted fashion", if that helps.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

We have 300 million people living in the country. I said 200 and whatever million just to take into account that some people would not fight. An invasion would have most of the country fighting, I am pretty sure. That is how Americans think. A lot of people would retreat and have weapons as a means of defense, but they would shoot as soon as they saw the Chinese soldiers, which probably would happen on their way to whatever places they think are retreats. But more importantly, our military would drive the Chinese out in a hurry. The point is that China knows better than to invade us.

Universal Mind is absolutely correct. Like I said before, I'm trained to go. If it goes down like that, better believe I'm Cocked Blocked and ready to Rock! If I happen to go down, Oh turst me I'm taking a dozen or so with me. Thats on the Forealla!

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Universal Mind is absolutely correct. Like I said before, I'm trained to go. If it goes down like that, better believe I'm Cocked Blocked and ready to Rock! If I happen to go down, Oh turst me I'm taking a dozen or so with me. Thats on the Forealla!

I dont think you'll do much better then a suicide bomber lol.

Originally Posted by dragonoverlord

I dont think you'll do much better then a suicide bomber lol.

You said that right "You don't think" I'm a Marine vet, with a wife and daughter. Do you honestly for one second think I would'nt Blow a Motherf***ers brains out to protect mine? If you do then you must be smoking a whole lot of something.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

You said that right "You don't think" I'm a Marine vet, with a wife and daughter. Do you honestly for one second think I would'nt Blow a Motherf***ers brains out to protect mine? If you do then you must be smoking a whole lot of something.

Well then, in that case, isn't protecting your wife and daughter more important than your country or your own brains? If not, how would you prioritise it?

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Well then, in that case, isn't protecting your wife and daughter more important than your country or your own brains? If not, how would you prioritise it?

I could give a damn about this country. I think I was pretty clear up there in regards to how I explained it. The scenerio was was also clear as well and I'll reinerate what I said and make it more elementry for those who didn't understand. My Country Invaded - Me - Splattering Brains all over the pavement bottom Line.