Thread: Why i think the USA won't Nuke or invade Iran

Originally Posted by bluefinger

And yet the US military is considering to invade Iran, despite being stretch enough as it is in Iraq and Afghanistan. So yeah, China knows better not invade... yet. DUM DUM DUMM!! D:

Don't forget about the nukes. We would rather commit suicide than be taken over. China will never take over the United States. That might be bad news for some people, but it is the truth.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Personally, I wouldn't advocate that armed citizenry would fight like you describe. If the Chinese are clever enough with their manoeuvres, they'll simply send a good amount of armour along with any troops, in which armed citizens will stand no chance. That or aerial bombardments, a tactic used by the US quite a lot. In other words, apply just enough pressure to crack any resistance of that sort. And if they really paid attention to The Art Of War, always leave a means of escape for the enemy, which in this case would be those armed citizens. Because then the citizens are presented with the choice of either 1) Dying, 2)Escaping to live and possibly fight another day, and I'm very sure that most would pick the latter when presented with the two options. Only the most diehard of your citizens would pick the former.

However, if I were trying to get armed citizens to fight, I would present a situation were no matter where they go, they'll face death. In this situation, people become desperate and will do anything to live. This mentality would then create such a headache for any invading army, that they would have to resort to extreme measures in order to quell such resistance. Not exactly a great thing to do, but nothing is quite as dangerous as a desperate person. Something used to great effect by the Japanese in WW2 (the whole kamikaze thing).

However, yeah, the US military would probably be a very tough nut to crack for any invading force, but armed citizens would be the least of worries.

Yes, armed citizens would be a much smaller worry than the U.S. military and our nukes. But you just named two things that the armed citizenry would/could greatly affect. You talked about the possibility of the Chinese turning the whole thing into an air raid. That would qualify as having a pretty big effect, don't you think? Then our military would handle them from the ground, from the sky, and from space. You also talked about how the Chinese soldiers would have to wrap themselves all up in armor. That would get pretty expensive and disrupt their efficiency. That too would be a major effect. Then they would have more than 200 million people shooting at them during an onset of mass production of armor piercing bullets, bombs, rocket launchers, you name it. There is no way that big of an citizen counterattack would not be significant. Do you think the insurgency in Iraq is something to deal with? Of course it is. Multiply that factor by about a hundred. That would be a nice bonus to the best military in the world and enough nukes to turn China into a black spot on the map the day they invade.

Originally Posted by Xei

Didn't the US recently fail to find any evidence of a modern nuclear weaponry programme in Iran? And didn't Bush simply refute the findings?

Edit: Mhm.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3228400.stm

It's Iraq all over again, except this time they actually know there's no WoMD. Disgusting.

I have only heard Bush say that Iran is working on nuclear technology for what they claim is energy oriented and that we can't even allow that. We are not going to invade Iran based on what is happening right now. The threat concerns what they might end up doing. Iran with nukes is out of the question.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Universal Mind is absolutely correct. Like I said before, I'm trained to go. If it goes down like that, better believe I'm Cocked Blocked and ready to Rock! If I happen to go down, Oh turst me I'm taking a dozen or so with me. Thats on the Forealla!

I will be sniping from very unexpected places with rocket launchers and bombs. You can count on it. Imagine 200 million of us doing that while the other 100 million are armed for self-defense.

I'm still confused, where does right wing belief come from that we're going to be invaded by China? They're one of our biggest allies, our economy is tied very tightly with theirs, and vise versa. There aren't 200 million people with guns in the US, in most [northern] large cities guns are illegal and a large percentage of Americans live in those cities.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

I'm still confused, where does right wing belief come from that we're going to be invaded by China? They're one of our biggest allies, our economy is tied very tightly with theirs, and vise versa.

I don't think it's a right wing belief. It's more like an Art Bell radio show belief, like 12/21/12.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

There aren't 200 million people with guns in the US, in most [northern] large cities guns are illegal and a large percentage of Americans live in those cities.

You apparently haven't read all I've said. If we got invaded by China, there would THEN be more than 200 million people with guns. There are enough guns in this country for everybody to have a few, and we have factories. The Second Amendment guarantees the right to bear arms (have guns), so guns are not supposed to be banned in any city. There are just registration complications in a lot of places. Also, people could go to other places to buy them, including the underground markets.

I think the armed citizenry issue is being harped on way too much in this thread. I said it would be a bonus to our military power and our nuke potential. It would be a small factor compared to the other two deterrents, but it would still be signficant. I never once said it is the biggest deterrent factor. Next topic please.

Like I said earlier; in this situation, a Chinese invasion of the U.S. due to our handling of Iran is a non-issue. I see no reason why they would not back us in any military effort we may decide to make.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

The Second Amendment guarantees the right to bear arms (have guns), so guns are not supposed to be banned in any city.

The second amendment gives the states the right to have a militia to fight back an overbearing government, you need to look at the bill of rights.

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

If the people want to ban guns from their city it's perfectly legal to do so, it severely drops the rate of violent crimes. There are more than this, but the following cities have gun bans: NYC, Jersey City, Newark, Albany. It is illegal to own any kind of firearm in any of them.

The bill of rights gives individuals the rights to bear arms. Everyone who is serious about studying the constitution knows it. Its only the stupid gun control people who try and argue it gives states the right to have a militia.

Its funny, the entire bill of right is written up to protect individuals rights. All of them talk about the peoples rights, yet some how the second one is different in talking about the states and not the peoples rights to have guns? Thats kind of a silly claim, especially since it says "the right of the people" in it.

Also its a pointless arguement, since the 9th amendment gives you the right to bear arms as well.

Originally Posted by Alric

The bill of rights gives individuals the rights to bear arms. Everyone who is serious about studying the constitution knows it. Its only the stupid gun control people who try and argue it gives states the right to have a militia.

No, it means that the government can't arrest you for being part of a militia, not necessarily a state. I mentioned state, but I meant any local government.

Also its a pointless arguement, since the 9th amendment gives you the right to bear arms as well.

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

How exactly?


The 2nd amendment was written to allow local governments to fight off a overbearing federal government in case the government decided to become England-like. No one is denying you the right to own a gun unless they've been banned by your local government (I own a handgun,) it was written in the time of musket loaders.

I want biological weapons.

Can't have those they're too dangerous.

I have the right to bear arms. Arms is defined as any offensive or defensive weapon.

There needs to be restrictions, anthrax is only used to kill people.

What about AK-47s?

Well we can't restrict those.

You really go duck hunting with machine guns?

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Okay, I get it, but still.. what's the point of nuking your own land just to prevent an invasion? It just isn't logical.

I was saying that we would nuke China and China would probably nuke us in return, if they were willing to kill all of the soldiers that arrived here.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Sorry, I didn't phrase that sentence correctly. What I meant to say was that Insurgents are mostly rebels or 'terrorists' that have had training in guerilla warfare, etc, hence their current effectiveness in the Iraq war. Citizens, at most, form untrained militias, of which their effectiveness varies. I hope that clears things up. Oh, just an FYI, I simply live in the UK, my nationality is not English.

So, you are an American? I was just wondering what you meant by "here".

Trained guerillas are better at guerilla warfar than people who are not trained in it. But a person with a gun is a problem, period. 200 million people with guns are a huge problem, even if all they are doing is sitting in their houses or wherever with their guns and waiting for a problem while just a few are shooting out their windows. That is stretching things all the way to the minimum scenario. It adds a whole new factor for those who are trying to take over cities.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Noted, but nonetheless... people would still try to move away from danger and peril. Of course, there would be numerous people who would stick around, but it would only be a fraction of the majority.

Even if they all flee, wherever they go would be much more difficult to take over. Imagine trying to take over Chicago. Think about that picture, for example.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

In war, numbers confer little advantage. Considering any armed force is vastly better supplied than maybe 20 million armed citizens, even those twenty million aren't much in the face of a sustained conflict.

Just keep thinking about trying to take over Chicago. Then think about trying to take over Los Angeles, New York, Washington, small towns in Mississippi and Alabama, wherever. There is no way that an armed citizenry is not going to add difficulty to that when our military is already handling things.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

I haven't seen Iran do much other than blow a whole load of smoke, of which the US administration has done nothing but respond to obvious provocations.

Only by blowing smoke back.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

. Plus, making a comment such as "Can they blow up an entire country within thirty minutes?" is not exactly a positive thing to boast about.

The point is that China does not want to take over a country that can do that. I hope we never blow up a country, by the way.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

My sarcasm meter just went off the scale... heh, I only made that as a comment, not to boast about it like a pissing contest.

Well, I couldn't resist such a golden opportunity to smart off after you threw the first sarcasm punch.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Please, don't assume ignorance just because I made reference to only one thing. I'm not assuming you're stupid, I'm just curious as to all the assertions you have made.

You mean Starship Troopers isn't really your guide to history?

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Relying on nukes as a deterrent is fairly weak, to be honest. Besides, this is a theoretical discussion on the highly unlikely scenario of a chinese invasion on the US, and China and the US have strong economic ties anyway, so neither would consider an invasion, nor nuking the shit out of the other.

Nukes are not a deterrent? They worked pretty well on Japan. Our nukes also had the Soviet Union going berzerk with its low socialist budget. It is what hurried them out of existence.

Nobody wants to invade a country that can nuke them out of existence.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

"I hope most of what is said here is said in a light-hearted fashion", if that helps.

Nooooooooooo....

Originally Posted by ninja9578

The second amendment gives the states the right to have a militia to fight back an overbearing government, you need to look at the bill of rights.

What is most relevant is that the Supreme Court interprets it as a right to own guns. But you are wrong any way. The word "militia" is used as a justification for the right to own guns. It is not solely about a right to have a militia. It uses the right to have a militia as a reason guns have to be legal. It mentions the necessity of militias and then says...

the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

That is some pretty plain English. It does not say, "... the right of the people to keep and bear militias shall not be infringed." Look really hard at the words.

Now for what "arms" means...

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
arm2 /ɑrm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ahrm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. Usually, arms. weapons, esp. firearms.

What kind of "arms" had they just used to fight the Revolutionary War? Slingshots and billy clubs?

The general consensus is that the 2nd amendment protects peoples rights to own guns. There is also a long standing tradition with people owning guns, and its considered a right. So even if they are wrong, the 9th amendment says, just because your rights are not writen down, doesn't mean they aren't protected under the law.

Thus anyone if someone argues, the right to own a gun isn't written down, you point first to the 2nd amendment and if they say thats wrong, you point to the 9th.

Anyway, its kind of silly to say your allowed to form a militia but your not allowed to own any weapons that are capable of defeating an oppressive government. You just said the point was to defend themself from an overbearing federal government, yet they are not allowed to own any guns?

If something is illegal for the government to own, of course the people shouldn't have them either. But if the government can have tanks and stuff I don't see a problem allowing the population to have machine guns.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Don't forget about the nukes. We would rather commit suicide than be taken over. China will never take over the United States. That might be bad news for some people, but it is the truth.

And so make your own land inhabitable for thousands and thousands of years? Sounds like a bastion of reason here [/sarcasm]

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Yes, armed citizens would be a much smaller worry than the U.S. military and our nukes. But you just named two things that the armed citizenry would/could greatly affect. You talked about the possibility of the Chinese turning the whole thing into an air raid. That would qualify as having a pretty big effect, don't you think? Then our military would handle them from the ground, from the sky, and from space. You also talked about how the Chinese soldiers would have to wrap themselves all up in armor. That would get pretty expensive and disrupt their efficiency. That too would be a major effect. Then they would have more than 200 million people shooting at them during an onset of mass production of armor piercing bullets, bombs, rocket launchers, you name it. There is no way that big of an citizen counterattack would not be significant. Do you think the insurgency in Iraq is something to deal with? Of course it is. Multiply that factor by about a hundred. That would be a nice bonus to the best military in the world and enough nukes to turn China into a black spot on the map the day they invade.

You are still working on assumptions that everyone is as zealously opposed any sort of invasion like you. Insurgents are actually trained rebels, not citizens here, so of course they would be effective. A citizen may have done hunting or did some shooting at a range, but when push comes to shove and that citizen, along with many others, is on the receiving end of Chinese military manoeuvre, most would flee for their lives. Not many people would stick around to cause trouble.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I have only heard Bush say that Iran is working on nuclear technology for what they claim is energy oriented and that we can't even allow that. We are not going to invade Iran based on what is happening right now. The threat concerns what they might end up doing. Iran with nukes is out of the question.

And yet Israel, Pakistan, and India have nuclear capability, of which the latter two don't exactly have great relations? Hmmm... something is just not right here.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I will be sniping from very unexpected places with rocket launchers and bombs. You can count on it. Imagine 200 million of us doing that while the other 100 million are armed for self-defense.

Funnily enough, I have a marksmanship award for use of a .22 rifle, but they are really useless unless aimed at the head. 200 million is still a completely outrageous claim, and unfortunately, this is boiling down to over-zealous patriotism, something quite humorously satirised in Starship Troopers. Nukes would be out of the question as a defensive measure, and even using them in retaliation to an invasion would get Russia and other nations screaming "NUKE FIGHT!!!!1!11 LOLOLOLOLOL". Which of course, would lead to complete, worldwide obliteration.

I do hope most of that is done in jest, otherwise it is quite the disturbing revelation.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

And so make your own land inhabitable for thousands and thousands of years? Sounds like a bastion of reason here [/sarcasm]

"Sarcasm", huh? We heard it there first. May the games begin.

No, we are all for just allowing a communist government to take us over. We'll roll over and be their bitches if they make us. Americans don't believe in dying for freedom. [sarcasm]

Originally Posted by bluefinger

You are still working on assumptions that everyone is as zealously opposed any sort of invasion like you. Insurgents are actually trained rebels, not citizens here, so of course they would be effective. A citizen may have done hunting or did some shooting at a range, but when push comes to shove and that citizen, along with many others, is on the receiving end of Chinese military manoeuvre, most would flee for their lives. Not many people would stick around to cause trouble.

You apparently don't know Americans very well, even if you do live "here". Where do you live? It says the UK in your profile. How is that "here"?

A lot of our population is ex-military, a whole lot of it is redneck nut job with guns, a great deal of it is ghetto gangster with guns, and most of the rest worship our country as if it is a god, and it wouldn't take a long time to learn how to shoot a gun and blow up a bomb. It's not rocket science. We have a culture that places freedom above life itself. It is like a religion here. It is what we were founded on, and it is what gave us the determination to drive England the Hell out of here with such a small number of troops and armed citizens. There would be a world record citizen backlash in the midst of a Chinese invasion of the United States. You can bet the farm on that one.

I don't understand why you are so Hell bent on the armed citizenry part any way. I said it would be a bonus. Even if only twenty million people took up their own arms, which is a vast underestimate, that would definitely be a big time bonus, as illustrated by what you said about driving the Chinese into the sky and making them all completely cover themselves in armor. You did suggest both of those, didn't you? What is many times bigger is our military factor. So is our nuke deterrent.

The Chinese will never invade us. Accept it even if you don't like it.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

And yet Israel, Pakistan, and India have nuclear capability, of which the latter two don't exactly have great relations? Hmmm... something is just not right here.

Can they blow up an entire country within thirty minutes, and when was the last time one of them tried to completely take over one of the other ones you named? Something is not right with your analogy.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

I have a marksmanship award for use of a .22 rifle

Holy shit. Remind me not to fuck with YOU.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

but they are really useless unless aimed at the head.

Hopefully other types of guns will be invented some day.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

200 million is still a completely outrageous claim, and unfortunately, this is boiling down to over-zealous patriotism, something quite humorously satirised in Starship Troopers.

This isn't France. Guns are legal and majorly abundant here, and being taken over by a government that is here to oppress us and not help us would have the masses going ape shit like nothing that has ever happened on this planet. Perhaps you should study something other than Starship Troopers to understand that aspect of reality.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Nukes would be out of the question as a defensive measure, and even using them in retaliation to an invasion would get Russia and other nations screaming "NUKE FIGHT!!!!1!11 LOLOLOLOLOL". Which of course, would lead to complete, worldwide obliteration.

We will turn China into a black spot on the map if that's what it takes to prevent being taken over by them. What Russia does is their thing. China does not want to even roll dice with the nuke fight scenario. They are not going to invade us. It is a fact. Sorry to disappoint you.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

I do hope most of that is done in jest, otherwise it is quite the disturbing revelation.

Please say that again, but with fewer pronouns.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

"Sarcasm", huh? We heard it there first. May the games begin.

No, we are all for just allowing a communist government to take us over. We'll roll over and be their bitches if they make us. Americans don't believe in dying for freedom. [sarcasm]

Okay, I get it, but still.. what's the point of nuking your own land just to prevent an invasion? It just isn't logical.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

You apparently don't know Americans very well, even if you do live "here". Where do you live? It says the UK in your profile. How is that "here"?

Sorry, I didn't phrase that sentence correctly. What I meant to say was that Insurgents are mostly rebels or 'terrorists' that have had training in guerilla warfare, etc, hence their current effectiveness in the Iraq war. Citizens, at most, form untrained militias, of which their effectiveness varies. I hope that clears things up. Oh, just an FYI, I simply live in the UK, my nationality is not English.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

A lot of our population is ex-military, a whole lot of it is redneck nut job with guns, a great deal of it is ghetto gangster with guns, and most of the rest worship our country as if it is a god, and it wouldn't take a long time to learn how to shoot a gun and blow up a bomb. It's not rocket science. We have a culture that places freedom above life itself. It is like a religion here. It is what we were founded on, and it is what gave us the determination to drive England the Hell out of here with such a small number of troops and armed citizens. There would be a world record citizen backlash in the midst of a Chinese invasion of the United States. You can bet the farm on that one.

Noted, but nonetheless... people would still try to move away from danger and peril. Of course, there would be numerous people who would stick around, but it would only be a fraction of the majority.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I don't understand why you are so Hell bent on the armed citizenry part any way. I said it would be a bonus. Even if only twenty million people took up their own arms, which is a vast underestimate, that would definitely be a big time bonus, as illustrated by what you said about driving the Chinese into the sky and making them all completely cover themselves in armor. You did suggest both of those, didn't you? What is many times bigger is our military factor. So is our nuke deterrent.

The Chinese will never invade us. Accept it even if you don't like it.

In war, numbers confer little advantage. Considering any armed force is vastly better supplied than maybe 20 million armed citizens, even those twenty million aren't much in the face of a sustained conflict.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Can they blow up an entire country within thirty minutes, and when was the last time one of them tried to completely take over one of the other ones you named? Something is not right with your analogy.

I haven't seen Iran do much other than blow a whole load of smoke, of which the US administration has done nothing but respond to obvious provocations. Plus, making a comment such as "Can they blow up an entire country within thirty minutes?" is not exactly a positive thing to boast about.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Holy shit. Remind me not to fuck with YOU.

My sarcasm meter just went off the scale... heh, I only made that as a comment, not to boast about it like a pissing contest.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Hopefully other types of guns will be invented some day.

And now my sarcasm meter has imploded... just too much sarcasm for it to handle.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

This isn't France. Guns are legal and majorly abundant here, and being taken over by a government that is here to oppress us and not help us would have the masses going ape shit like nothing that has ever happened on this planet. Perhaps you should study something other than Starship Troopers to understand that aspect of reality.

Please, don't assume ignorance just because I made reference to only one thing. I'm not assuming you're stupid, I'm just curious as to all the assertions you have made.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

We will turn China into a black spot on the map if that's what it takes to prevent being taken over by them. What Russia does is their thing. China does not want to even roll dice with the nuke fight scenario. They are not going to invade us. It is a fact. Sorry to disappoint you.

Relying on nukes as a deterrent is fairly weak, to be honest. Besides, this is a theoretical discussion on the highly unlikely scenario of a chinese invasion on the US, and China and the US have strong economic ties anyway, so neither would consider an invasion, nor nuking the shit out of the other.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Please say that again, but with fewer pronouns.

"I hope most of what is said here is said in a light-hearted fashion", if that helps.