Thread: Bush vetoes waterboard torture ban

You know what.

I think there should be a one week long "camp" for evrybody who thinks waterboarding is not torture. Maybe if they walked a day in those peoples shackles or a week they would understand...

Originally Posted by Seismosaur

Torture is perfectly acceptable.

How else are they going get information?

Originally Posted by 27

You make me want to throw up.

Same affect on me. I don't appreciate it at all.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

A billion isn't very much, the USA spent 23 billion developing our nuclear bombs. Remember, he had the entire treasury of Iraq at his disposal and didn't even come close to building a WMD. We're still allowing Kim Jong Il to experiment with nuclear weapons and he's just behind Bush on international polls of threats to world peace.

We don't want to send out the message that we can be bought by terrorists like Saddam Hussein, and the WMD information was way too important of a matter to be negotiated with. The claimed surrender terms were unacceptable.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

You're still assuming that the person has done something wrong. The purpose of their torture is to find out if they have. If they hadn't then it's just... well torturous. A bank robber is caught in the act, we know he/she's guilty... still requires a confession or a trial though.

I am only talking about people who have done something wrong. I am talking about people who shoot at us on battlefields or whom we have some other major reason to think know something very important. Waterboarding should never be used on people we just sort of think might possibly know something.

Waterboarding is not about finding out if the person has screwed up. It is about taking somebody who has screwed up and who has given the interrogators major indication that he has knowledge to give up that knowledge. They come from battlefields and terrorist cells and such.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

We're an occupying force, the way that England was in India, or China was in Hong Kong. We haven't liberated anyone.

We are a temporary occupying force. Iraq and Afghanistan are in transition phases, and the transition phases are necessary for preserving their liberty. Their governments are run by the people, unlike before. We also have a big history of liberation that precedes the war on terror.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

Rights don't override a wrong.

I was not saying they do. I was discussing an area where we are the greatest force for good in the world. There are other such areas. The idea that we are the second greatest threat to the world is profoundly absurd.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

Conventional methods work for accused criminals in our justice system, why do you think they wouldn't work for accused international criminals? Do you think they're smarter? or have some anti-interrogation secrets that american criminals haven't thought of yet?

They "work", but not with 100% effectiveness. Not even close. Waterboarding is far more effective. Khalid Sheikh Momammed would not have revealed jack shit under conventional criminal interrogation techniques. We are dealing with nuts who seek to die for Allah. Trying to make prison sentence reduction deals would have almost zero effectiveness on them. It takes extreme measures to get them to talk.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

I wasn't dodging it, I thought I was explaining it: if it's illegal then it doesn't matter.

It's not illegal.

enemies have to kill enemies, they did 9/11, you did iraq and one-upped them, next move? this game is already boring.

I hope you all lose.



what are you guys gonna do about the torturing? anything? you guys dont really care enough, who's coming to mcdonalds with me?

Originally Posted by wasup

Interesting you say that, because actual experts say otherwise.

Actual experts disagree with those "experts". That includes the CIA and U.S. special forces, who undergo waterboarding as part of their training so they can learn how to handle it when it happens to them. Waterboarding has only been used on three people, and they were known Al Qaeda leaders. The technique worked and saved innocent lives. It has not been used by the U.S. government since 2003.

http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/W.../10/56046.html

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=25088

Originally Posted by wasup

On the second point, your ignorance of water boarding is really showing through Do some research and you can learn that people have died very frequently from water boarding, as well as receive many other physical ailments. If you really want me to do the research for you, then just ask. It astonishes me that people so often support positions that they have no knowledge about and are unwilling to find out the truth for themselves.

If waterboarding is done the wrong way, I am sure it can have bad effects. People have died from riding buses. Should we stop bussing prisoners? Give me a list of terrorists who have died in the war on terror because of improper use of waterboarding, and use a credible source.

Know what you are talking about before you insult people personally.

Originally Posted by wasup

Of course there is REASON to torture them, but many of them either do not in fact know any information or are not terrorists. And as was said, many falsely admit to things in order to end the torture.

Like I said, it should only be used on those who really do know things. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was known to be a top Al Qaeda leader. It is people like that waterboarding should be used on.

Originally Posted by wasup

I have sympathy for the suffering of both the victims and the terrorists. They are both humans and have rights. The second point is completely irrelevant. If we burn murderers alive, and people protest this, how is the "rebuttal" of "I don't see you denouncing murder!" relevant at all? It's a completely different subject.

When we have to choose between the two, you seem to side with the terrorists. That is illustrated by your lack of demonstrated outrage toward terrorists in the midst of your belly aching for them and your will to do away with waterboarding even though it has saved and will continue to save the lives of the innocent at the expense of how terrorists feel when they refuse to give up information they should be giving up.

Originally Posted by wasup

I don't have an "alternative," but this is still irrelevant. And if history has taught us anything... advocates of slavery used the same exact argument for slavery. "There is no alternative." People such as Thomas Jefferson supported the existence of slavery simply because our economy and safety as a nation depended on its existence. There was no alternative. Funny how you bring that up again.

There was an alternative to slavery, so I don't buy that argument. But there is no equal alternative to waterboarding. It works, it has worked, it will continue to work, and it saves the lives of the good guys. Yes, I do believe in good guys and bad guys. Guess whose side I am on. Waterboarding saves the lives of the good guys. I support it. Until an equal or better method is discovered, I will continue to support it, and I will continue to ask people like you what they suggest we do instead. I don't plan on getting good answers to that question.

Originally Posted by wasup

You seem to misunderstand the purpose of bringing up the point of public appeal. It has nothing to do with a "popularity contest," it has to do with what people think is right. The reason people don't like him is because his sense of what is necessary is entirely skewed. Great leaders do not do things while ignoring what people think of them. Dictators do.

We have a democratic republic for a reason. We don't just let the people vote on every issue. That is because the people often don't understand how the world works, so we elect people we think do understand how the world works so they can hopefully make the best decisions. Dictators do not merely ignore what the public wants. They ignore what is best for the public. Used car salesmen like Bill Clinton make their decisions based on polls. That is why Bin Laden is still alive and why the 9/11 attacks ended up happening. We really needed a president with conviction and balls in the 90's and it sucks that we did not have one.

Waterboarding = torture
Torture = wrong
Bush = idiot

Who said I wasn't being serious?

I just asked for an alternative method; no one has come up with one.

I'm not denying that Waterboarding isn't torture and that torture is the best way, I'm just asking you for an alternative.

After all these people were convicted terrorists. Y'know, the people who belong to radical Muslim groups and kill infidels.

Originally Posted by 27

You make me want to throw up.

You make me throw up.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

No one takes Seismosaur seriously.

Only fools don't take me seriously unless my post is full of smilies or in Senseless Banter.

And I did not get banned for SPAM!! Get your facts straight!

Not to mention that was a serious question you idiot.

I want to reiterate that only three terrorist detainees have been waterboarded by the U.S. government during the war on terror. They were not exactly random Joes off the streets of Afghanistan. All three waterboardings resulted in the foilings of terrorist attacks. I still want to know what a better alternative would have been.

http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/W.../10/56046.html

The three terrorists who were subjected too waterboarding are Abu Zubaydah, Osama bin Laden’s chief of operations; Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri, the mastermind of the bombing of the USS Cole; and Khalid Sheik Mohammed, the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks.

Those pieces of shit will never have my sympathy, and I know very clearly that I am not a bad person for feeling that way. To truly love good, you have to hate evil. If you want to see me being sympathetic, start talking about the Americans decapitated in the Zarqawi videos or the 9/11 attack victims.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Actual experts disagree with those "experts". That includes the CIA and U.S. special forces, who undergo waterboarding as part of their training so they can learn how to handle it when it happens to them. Waterboarding has only been used on three people, and they were known Al Qaeda leaders. The technique worked and saved innocent lives. It has not been used by the U.S. government since 2003.

Hold on a second, are you telling me that the people who want to maintain the existence of water boarding are saying that it is safe? Furthermore, if you research the actual process of TRAINING, well... actually, you don't even have to research it. It's called TRAINING For a reason. They don't subject them to the equivalent of what they use in prisoners. The people who undergo waterboarding are expecting it and they do not go to the same effect they do on prisoners. Did you watch the video I linked? It tells you of the effects of waterboarding. And uh, who told you that we have only used water boarding on 3 people? Secondly, who says it saved innocent lives? As mentioned before, people often admit to untrue things.

If waterboarding is done the wrong way, I am sure it can have bad effects. People have died from riding buses. Should we stop bussing prisoners? Give me a list of terrorists who have died in the war on terror because of improper use of waterboarding, and use a credible source.

Well of course I can't provide a list. The government does not release all their information. Bush will barely mention the interrogation techniques he uses, let alone permit a detailed account of the interrogation of all of their prisoners be released. However, many HAVE died from water boarding techniques. If you really are incapable of learning the truth for yourself, just let me know. But at that point it's not really worth arguing if you aren't willing to learn about the subject yourself rather than simply agree with what the people actually administering the technique tell you.

There was an alternative to slavery, so I don't buy that argument. But there is no equal alternative to waterboarding. It works, it has worked, it will continue to work, and it saves the lives of the good guys. Yes, I do believe in good guys and bad guys. Guess whose side I am on. Waterboarding saves the lives of the good guys. I support it. Until an equal or better method is discovered, I will continue to support it, and I will continue to ask people like you what they suggest we do instead. I don't plan on getting good answers to that question.

First of all, I don't think you understood my point at ALL. The advocates of slavery SAID there was no alternative, and were convinced, just as you are. Furthermore, there really WAS no alternative. The entirety of the economy of the South (and in effect of the nation as a whole, as well as somewhat the economies of foreign nations) depended on the labor of the slaves. They provided all the labor for the agricultural progress of the region. There really was no alternative. If you learn a little about the history, you will find that after the civil war and the emancipation proclamation, the economy of the South was in ruins. They soon employed slaves or used certain techniques so they were essentially in the same slave state. Not until later did the economy adjust and technology develop to allow for slavery not to exist.

Secondly, as said, it does not necessarily work, because many falsely admit to things, which actually hurts us more than it helps us as it leads us on incorrect paths and such. And are we really the "good guys" if we have such a disregard for human rights as they do? I am no expert on the question of alternative, humane interrogation methods. It is just like me asking you to go research for new alternative fuel sources. It is inappropriate for the discussion because you are not an engineer (assuming here). I have not studied psychology, nor have any experience with interrogation methods and such. So it is irrelevant to ask me. Just because an average joe doesn't know how to secure the well-being of our entire nation and its people through systems of interrogation doesn't mean such a method doesn't exist. And as I said, it is completely IRRELEVANT. Remember what I said about slavery. And here's an idea, instead of torturing people for information that they may or may not know, why don't we solve problems more fundamentally? Help to enhance our foreign image. Be a respectful nation. Deal with economic, energy, financial, political, and social issues locally and internationally. There's an "alternative" for you.

We have a democratic republic for a reason. We don't just let the people vote on every issue. That is because the people often don't understand how the world works, so we elect people we think do understand how the world works so they can hopefully make the best decisions. Dictators do not merely ignore what the public wants. They ignore what is best for the public. Used car salesmen like Bill Clinton make their decisions based on polls. That is why Bin Laden is still alive and why the 9/11 attacks ended up happening. We really needed a president with conviction and balls in the 90's and it sucks that we did not have one.

Who decides what is best for the american people? Someone with recieved a below average score on the SATs, thinks stem cells are a detriment to our nation, doesn't believe gays should have rights, and can't grasp the fundamental tenents of the english language? Or perhaps... the American people? Leaders who do not listen to the polls create huge energy crises, deficits, education problems, leave millions without health care, and send so many to die in pointless wars. It is interesting how you agree that dictators do in fact ignore what the public wants, and the only distinction from them and Bush is what is actually the "best" for the public. Is Bush really doing what is best for the public? Besides what I just said above, I believe the trend is obvious. If SO many people are SO unhappy with his leadership, how can he be doing what is best for the public? People want change. People aren't happy. That is not evidence of what is "best" for the public.

Originally Posted by wasup

Hold on a second, are you telling me that the people who want to maintain the existence of water boarding are saying that it is safe?

I don't remember saying that, and I don't think you remember me saying that either. I said that waterboarding is quite safe if employed correctly, like driving a bus full of prisoners.

Originally Posted by wasup

Furthermore, if you research the actual process of TRAINING, well... actually, you don't even have to research it. It's called TRAINING For a reason. They don't subject them to the equivalent of what they use in prisoners. The people who undergo waterboarding are expecting it and they do not go to the same effect they do on prisoners. Did you watch the video I linked? It tells you of the effects of waterboarding.

If you will research why special forces use waterboarding on their trainees, you will see that it is to get them ready for when an enemy uses it on them. They are not preparing them for when another American uses it on them. That means they are not going to be getting a downsized version of it.

Originally Posted by wasup

And uh, who told you that we have only used water boarding on 3 people? Secondly, who says it saved innocent lives?

I posted the link twice and even posted a paragraph from it.

Originally Posted by wasup

As mentioned before, people often admit to untrue things.

Of the three terrorists we have used waterboarding on in the war on terror, which one or ones gave us false information? Or are you just speculating again? All we have to do is tell them that if the information turns out to be false they are going to be drowned. Problem solved.

Originally Posted by wasup

Well of course I can't provide a list. The government does not release all their information. Bush will barely mention the interrogation techniques he uses, let alone permit a detailed account of the interrogation of all of their prisoners be released. However, many HAVE died from water boarding techniques. If you really are incapable of learning the truth for yourself, just let me know. But at that point it's not really worth arguing if you aren't willing to learn about the subject yourself rather than simply agree with what the people actually administering the technique tell you.

You can't provide a list? Well then, speculate away. As of now, the only information we have says that just three people have received waterboarding treatment from the U.S. government during the war on terror. All three were top Al Qaeda leaders, and all three gave up information that was very necessary. If you want to talk about all of the things waterboarding has done to create bad in the world during the war on terror, you might want to wait until you don't have to depend on pulling things out of your ass. But feel free to insult me and my intentions for as long as you can't argue your side. Then you can at least pretend to have something to say.

Originally Posted by wasup

First of all, I don't think you understood my point at ALL. The advocates of slavery SAID there was no alternative, and were convinced, just as you are. Furthermore, there really WAS no alternative. The entirety of the economy of the South (and in effect of the nation as a whole, as well as somewhat the economies of foreign nations) depended on the labor of the slaves. They provided all the labor for the agricultural progress of the region. There really was no alternative. If you learn a little about the history, you will find that after the civil war and the emancipation proclamation, the economy of the South was in ruins. They soon employed slaves or used certain techniques so they were essentially in the same slave state. Not until later did the economy adjust and technology develop to allow for slavery not to exist.

If I will learn a little about history? Kid, I think it's getting close to your bed time. I live in Mississippi and know all about slavery and its aftereffects. You might not know this, but we don't have slavery in the South any more. Guess what. We have an incredible economy. There was an economic alternative to slavery after all! Getting people to work for money that they can spend and help fuel the economy works very, very well. However, even if that were not true, the better alternative would have been to free the slaves any way and take a huge economic blow because the involuntary servitude of the innocent is far worse. Now let's talk about your dilemma. If no interrogation technique can work anywhere near as well as waterboarding, do you want to do away with waterboarding any way because how terrorists are treated means more to you than large numbers of innocent lives? Not me, little junior.

Originally Posted by wasup

Secondly, as said, it does not necessarily work, because many falsely admit to things, which actually hurts us more than it helps us as it leads us on incorrect paths and such. And are we really the "good guys" if we have such a disregard for human rights as they do? I am no expert on the question of alternative, humane interrogation methods. It is just like me asking you to go research for new alternative fuel sources. It is inappropriate for the discussion because you are not an engineer (assuming here). I have not studied psychology, nor have any experience with interrogation methods and such. So it is irrelevant to ask me. Just because an average joe doesn't know how to secure the well-being of our entire nation and its people through systems of interrogation doesn't mean such a method doesn't exist. And as I said, it is completely IRRELEVANT. Remember what I said about slavery. And here's an idea, instead of torturing people for information that they may or may not know, why don't we solve problems more fundamentally? Help to enhance our foreign image. Be a respectful nation. Deal with economic, energy, financial, political, and social issues locally and internationally. There's an "alternative" for you.

We are doing those things, but they are not interrogation techniques, and that is what I am asking for. If I started screaming that we should ban oil, the logical question for people to ask is what we should use instead. If I had no answer to that, the intellectually honest thing for me to do would be to try to understand why oil is used. You keep asserting stuff about where waterboarding could go wrong and even has. You have yet to show proof of where the U.S. has screwed it up. Until you can prove we have, you might as well be singing "Happy Birthday". Like I said, telling detainees if their information is false we are going to drown them takes care of the purely hypothetical situation you brought up.

Originally Posted by wasup

Who decides what is best for the american people? Someone with recieved a below average score on the SATs, thinks stem cells are a detriment to our nation, doesn't believe gays should have rights, and can't grasp the fundamental tenents of the english language? Or perhaps... the American people? Leaders who do not listen to the polls create huge energy crises, deficits, education problems, leave millions without health care, and send so many to die in pointless wars. It is interesting how you agree that dictators do in fact ignore what the public wants, and the only distinction from them and Bush is what is actually the "best" for the public. Is Bush really doing what is best for the public? Besides what I just said above, I believe the trend is obvious. If SO many people are SO unhappy with his leadership, how can he be doing what is best for the public? People want change. People aren't happy. That is not evidence of what is "best" for the public.

Not everybody understands the big and long term picture. What do you think we should do? Do you want to get rid of the republic aspect of our government? Do you want to become a pure democracy where the public votes on every single move officials make? We have a democratic republic for a reason. What do you suggest we do instead? Do you want the president to read polls on every issue every day and act directly according to them? We would be screwed if things were done that way.

While you ache and moan for the poor terrorists, I will continue to be glad that we have people doing their best to protect the innocent.

I wish they would torture those bastard terrorists with Al Qaeda techniques. Water boarding is so F*UCKING weaksause its ridiculous. Were not torturing them for fun, its to get vital information to maybe stop another attack. TO PREVENT INNOCENT PEOPLE FROM DYING!!!!!!!!!! TERRORISTS HAVE NO DAMN RIGHTS!!! Any f*cker who says " OHHH!!! Were torturing them!!! How could you do such a thing!!! OWWW my vagina hurts!!!"
F*UCK YOU. YOU PIECE OF SHIITE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's the golden rule buddy. Don't bitch when they're torturing you.

Originally Posted by Elwood

I wish they would torture those bastard terrorists with Al Qaeda techniques. Water boarding is so F*UCKING weaksause its ridiculous. Were not torturing them for fun, its to get vital information to maybe stop another attack. TO PREVENT INNOCENT PEOPLE FROM DYING!!!!!!!!!! TERRORISTS HAVE NO DAMN RIGHTS!!! Any f*cker who says " OHHH!!! Were torturing them!!! How could you do such a thing!!! OWWW my vagina hurts!!!"
F*UCK YOU. YOU PIECE OF SHIITE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

try getting waterboarded and see if it is so weaksause...and yes "Terrorists" do have rights. Ever heard of the geneva concentions and the UN charter?

But im glad you admit is torture....admiting you have a problem is the first step to recovery.

Elwood, you do realize that if we do that -- that is, achieve our means by the same ways as the terrorists -- we are in fact no worse than them, and that we are in fact terrorists ourselves, right?

Originally Posted by wasup

Elwood, you do realize that if we do that -- that is, achieve our means by the same ways as the terrorists -- we are in fact no worse than them, and that we are in fact terrorists ourselves, right?

We are not decapitating them. More importantly, we are not decapitating innocents or targetting civilian population centers. No comparison.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Oct28.html
100,000 civilian deaths due to the american invasion.

they may kill civilians, but their main aim is the military bases. How many civilians have they killed? is it more than 100,000?... does it matter?

So far everyone has badmouthed interrogation torture, but none have addressed Al Qaeda's torturing for no real reasons, their methods, or have offered up a method of interrogation that is of equal use and success.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Oct28.html
100,000 civilian deaths due to the american invasion.

they may kill civilians, but their main aim is the military bases. How many civilians have they killed? is it more than 100,000?... does it matter?

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

We do not target civilians. However, the insurgents do. I would be very surprised if you have anything bad to say about the insurgents. Civilians accidentally get killed in wars. The war in Iraq would not be happening if not for the insurgency. We have to preserve the Iraqi democracy until it can stand on its own. If we left without making sure of that, many times more civilians would die.

This thread is about interrorgation techniques. Why did you leave a tangent post?

Originally Posted by Seismosaur

So far everyone has badmouthed interrogation torture, but none have addressed Al Qaeda's torturing for no real reasons, their methods, or have offered up a method of interrogation that is of equal use and success.

Don't plan on either one of those happening.

Originally Posted by Seismosaur

So far everyone has badmouthed interrogation torture, but none have addressed Al Qaeda's torturing for no real reasons, their methods, or have offered up a method of interrogation that is of equal use and success.

Oh that's how it works does it? Al Qaeda does it so it's OK for us to do it?

You brought it up.

So far everyone has badmouthed interrogation torture, but none have addressed Al Qaeda's torturing for no real reasons, their methods, or have offered up a method of interrogation that is of equal use and success.

Americans used to lead the free world, we should be taking the high road and using conventional means. They are torturing people because they are blinded by their religion *cough not the only ones, but took it to a greater extreme cough* The Qu'ran says to not associate with those who do not follow Allah (the bible says the same thing about Jesus,) the extremists interpreted that to mean to make war with non believers.

Did you see the post about slavery? Because something works doesn't mean that it's right. The ends does not justify the means.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

Did you see the post about slavery? Because something works doesn't mean that it's right. The ends does not justify the means.

Good point. Slavery is GREAT for the economy.

Agreed, after all the slaves were set free the southern economy collapsed and it still hasn't quite caught up. Slaves made the USA the leading exporter of cotton and tobacco (corn too if I'm not mistaken,) and put our dollar up there with the rest of the world's. Didn't make it right.

Originally Posted by 27

Oh that's how it works does it? Al Qaeda does it so it's OK for us to do it?

What?

I said they just tortured to torture, and no one has pointed that out really, plus waterboarding really isn't much of a torture compared to what they do.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

You brought it up.


Americans used to lead the free world, we should be taking the high road and using conventional means. They are torturing people because they are blinded by their religion *cough not the only ones, but took it to a greater extreme cough* The Qu'ran says to not associate with those who do not follow Allah (the bible says the same thing about Jesus,) the extremists interpreted that to mean to make war with non believers.

Did you see the post about slavery? Because something works doesn't mean that it's right. The ends does not justify the means.

But what other means of effective interrogation methods are there then?

Again-- Not saying I think it's great, but you guys need to come up with something better if you see it needs to be removed.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

Agreed, after all the slaves were set free the southern economy collapsed and it still hasn't quite caught up. Slaves made the USA the leading exporter of cotton and tobacco (corn too if I'm not mistaken,) and put our dollar up there with the rest of the world's. Didn't make it right.

No.

The civil war caused the South's economy to collapse due to inflation.