Thread: Are sentences long enough and are prisons really punishment?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

That would be like letting students grade their own tests.

They already do.

We judge everything already. Only another's ego can claim that another's judgment is more true.

Though to judge within ourselves, we need an ego anyway. Therefore we know the "proper" judgement ourselves, aside from what we are told by another.

ie. your universe is a reflection of your mind.

Originally Posted by ClouD

They already do.

We judge everything already. Only another's ego can claim that another's judgment is more true.

Though to judge within ourselves, we need an ego anyway. Therefore we know the "proper" judgement ourselves, aside from what we are told by another.

ie. your universe is a reflection of your mind.

So, the killers should have decided their own sentences? My guess is that they would have not given themselves prison time. What do you think? (In other words, please translate what you are saying into legal terminology.)

Students never graded their own tests at any school I went to. It sounds to me like a pretty shaky plan.

They already judged themselves.
As is their nature. Continually creating division.

Originally Posted by ClouD

They already judged themselves.
As is their nature. Continually creating division.

I asked you what sentences you think they would have given themselves if they had been given that option. Please try to give a straight answer.

I'm not so sure. I'm not judging them, nor myself. Though legally, I think they would choose material freedom over material confinement and persecution.

Quote from ClouD:

"I am saying it is not a tragedy that the person died. It is a tragedy that so many have to suffer from it."

Many people wouldn't agree. The dead one, for instance.

Are you saying that only criminals understand themselves so they should decide what their punishment is?

Because 1) It's more than possible that they don't have the necessary mental maturity to deal with it, 3) that would be totally unfair. We have the legal system to make sure crimes are treated equally and fairly, 4) why would they do this? You think it's likely they would do this because of some sort of innate morality? Because I don't.

There used to be a two, but i had to go from the post and when I got back, I'd forgotten it.

ClouD, do you model your responses based on the 'The Sphinx' character of the movie 'Mystery Men', or are you just a little bit crazy? I don't think I've read a single reply of yours that wasn't an attempt to sound philosophically insightful but fell somewhat short of what you were going for.

Convicted murderers deciding their own punishment? No. They lost their right for self-determination when they chose to end the life of another human being. Incarceration is not just about keeping the bad eggs away from society - it's about stripping them of the freedoms that those of us on the outside take for granted. This includes the right of self-determination in ones future. You forfeit that right when you break the laws that society has laid down upon itself collectively.

Personally I don't believe the penal system works. Making it a horrible place to want to end up only works so long as you haven't been caught for something. Actually BEING in that horrible place is not conducive to setting someone straight, except for if they had a relatively minor stay and realised they never wanted to go back in. But what you see happen time and time again is people go away to prison for minor offences, they mix with the hard-timers and they pick up more tricks, skills and contacts to further their illegal enterprises when they get released.

I also don't believe capitol punishment should have been outlawed in Australia. If it can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that a person has killed maliciously with intent, that person should be stripped of the very life they have for presuming to have the right to take it from another. This is not eye for an eye revenge. It's about respect. They did not respect the life of their victim, and as such should not expect respect for their own life. I shouldn't have to pay taxes for the rest of my life, to keep people like Martin Bryant alive in an Australian prison until the end of his days. Prison should be about rehabilitation, not locking up someone until they die of natural causes at 80+. Skip the middle years and get to the punchline.

Some parts of the US justice system really need to be addressed however. The '3 strikes' rule for a start. You can get 25 years in jail for 3 relatively minor offences, like drug trafficking, or possessing an illegal firearm. I'm not condoning those behaviours, but TWENTY-FIVE YEARS to life is a little absurd. It only serves to overcrowd prisons and inflate justice statistics.

what cloud is talking about is something that already happens with in the human ego. its not about 'laws'.

hes not saying the criminals should judge themselves. they ALREADY have. and many see themselves as guilt free. there are many in jail 'suffering' a life time and they can careless, they are laughing it up. nothing you say or do can make anyone feel guilty. you feel guilty when you judge yourself as guilty.

but we have to remember why people are put into jail. its not really a value system of judgement. every society has something that upholds itself. in the modern society, its laws, in ancient societies it would be religion. you break the law, you are showing you are dangerous to that which society uses to hold itself up.

jail then, is not so much about punishing anymore. cruel and unusual punishment is not the place of the modern jail. jail is a place for people who are not being apart of society by breaking its laws, so that society can still continue to function the way it was meant to when these dangerous people are 'removed'.

Its about the safety and sanctity of society, of our daily lives. It's not so much about punishing the criminal. The criminal forfeits 'rights' that they have abused, namely, the freedom to be apart of society.

This might be why the UK prison seems soft. It may not see itself as a tool of punishment but a tool to keep society free of criminals. Neither is there any correlation between punishing a criminal and preventing them from committing a crime again. Many, many 'punished' criminals commit the same crime within the same bloody week of their release. Their time in jail DID NOT CHANGE THEM. Or in clouds sense, how they have judged themselves has not changed.

Instead, look at the UK prison in a different light. If the criminals don't care to leave - then society is safer, as society is probably better off not having these dangerous members walking their streets to begin with.

The mindset that jail should be a place for EXTREME PUNISHMENT is a dangerous one that creates MORE criminals, and pushes criminals to the extremes to escape as well as create suffering in jail for those who are more innocent. The REVENGE mindset doesn't work in this modern society. We need to be more mature than that and understand jail is really here to keep society safe. That is its primary function.

The BETTER society is, the less criminals we are going to have. Since studies show, that yes, there is a relationship between criminals and the barrios and ghettos. Rough upbringings, not enough opportunities in life, and all that jazz.

Better society.

Not revenge.

As for the most extreme members in jail. Many of them have some sort of mental illness. I mean, they are PSYCHOTIC. While its easy to say "EVIL BURN IN HELL!" We need to step back and ask, what made them this way? And does society play a role in the development of such a twisted mind? If it does, then we have an obligation to study it and understand if there is a way to prevent or even treat this kind of mind.

Originally Posted by The Fishy

P.S. - Solitary confinement IS torture

When does "punishment" become "torture"? I'm of a mind that criminals are reluctant to be alone because that means they are forced to be alone with their own thoughts. Some like the idea and use that time to fantasize about one thing or another - usually not something harmless - but a lot of them have to face the decisions they made and consider what their future will look like. That's just one side of it, but I wanted to throw out the idea that solitary confinement isn't in and of itself torture. It can be taken too far, but that is a subjective decision based on the individual.

Originally Posted by ClouD

Though to judge within ourselves, we need an ego anyway. Therefore we know the "proper" judgement ourselves, aside from what we are told by another.

Therein lies the problem. Criminals are unaccustomed to a law-abiding lifestyle. In this day and age, these people are raised in homes where illegal activity is either propagated, not punished, and/or even be condoned. Even if a part of them knows what they're doing is wrong, they will find a way to justify their actions and believe that what they're doing is okay. They don't understand honesty and integrity in the same way that law-abiding citizens don't understand how a 74 year-old man can keep his daughter locked up for 24 years and have seven kids with her. These people are sick and there is no truly effective treatment for them.

Keep in mind that I don't believe that all criminals are "inherently evil." Some of them make stupid mistakes and decide to change their lives around, but the majority of offenders will offend again. They will do what they are comfortable with.

Originally Posted by Alextanium

Personally I don't believe the penal system works. Making it a horrible place to want to end up only works so long as you haven't been caught for something. Actually BEING in that horrible place is not conducive to setting someone straight, except for if they had a relatively minor stay and realised they never wanted to go back in. But what you see happen time and time again is people go away to prison for minor offences, they mix with the hard-timers and they pick up more tricks, skills and contacts to further their illegal enterprises when they get released.

Prisons and jails are largely just containment facilities. As I mentioned earlier, most of these people don't want to change and aren't going to change. Also, the idea of going to prison doesn't inspire fear as it once did. People who function in the criminal culture often end up knowing people who are already in prison, so they already have that source of protection lined up for them. I'm all for the death penalty as well as castration of serious offenders. (As for the definition of "serious offenders," I don't intend this as a blanket statement for such and such offenses.) Some people have forfeited their right to life. Some just should not breed. What about cutting off the hand of a thief or burglar? I don't mean saw it off with a rusty blade, but have it removed in a safe and sterile way. It's hard to pick a lock with one hand... not that I've tried.

On another note, I don't deny that bad things happen to inmates, but as far as TV shows displaying "real life scenarios," I think it's important to remember that the goal of broadcast stations is to attract viewers. They will display what they believe will draw the largest audience, and a whole show about getting up in the morning, working in a laundry facility, walking around the courtyard, eating prison food, and going to bed doesn't make for a lively hour.

Anyway, I'm sure someone will have something to say. The more I hear about these criminals, the more cynical and distrustful I become. For now, though, I'm going to bed to think about my next post.

Originally Posted by Amethyst Star

I'm all for the death penalty as well as castration of serious offenders. (As for the definition of "serious offenders," I don't intend this as a blanket statement for such and such offenses.) Some people have forfeited their right to life. Some just should not breed. What about cutting off the hand of a thief or burglar? I don't mean saw it off with a rusty blade, but have it removed in a safe and sterile way. It's hard to pick a lock with one hand... not that I've tried.

That's taking it too far, really. This isn't 2nd century Persia anymore. We don't cut off the hands of thieves. Theft is a petty crime (mostly). You are taking someones possessions but you aren't physically harming said person.

I'm fine with the death penalty (lethal injection), but mutilation of prisoners is not humane or even necessary. As a species, we're past that (mostly).

Solitary confinement isn't an awful experience because of the thought's you're stuck with (not necessarily, I meant). For instance, in the Stanford Prison Experiment (check Wikipedia if you don't know about it already, it's about psychology of prisoners/"psychological warfare" in dealing with them you could call it) when the test subjects were put into solitary confinement they came out gibbering wrecks. These people had committed nothing so immoral as to cause that degree of trauma. They where normal. So it's not necessarily because of the individuals guilty thoughts.

Simply put, being trapped in what is basically a box with no light whatsoever even for an hour will drive anyone to despair because of the sensory deprivation (e.g. lack of light) that goes with solitary confinement. It's a psychological thing.

Not quite a dark box, but it would sure feel like a coffin.

Man trapped in elevator for 41 hours with no contact to the outside world, in 1999

It was an example, there are several types of solitary confinement including the type I used as an example. All types incorporate a sensory and social deprivation that will have a severe negative affect on the recipient of such treatment.

Perfectly normal guy, was just going for a 5 minute smoko.

He says he contemplated suicide around the 36hr mark, and started having hallucinations are the 28 hour mark. The worst part was falling asleep, because after waking up you had absolutely no idea how much time had passed (not that he had any idea when he was awake, no watch and no phone).