Voting McCain?

**Oneironaut Zero** · 05-22-2008 11:06 PM

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Pretty much everybody criticizes the government, including me. That alone does not make a person anti-American. Wright, however, is anti-American.

What is it, exactly, that makes someone Anti-American, vs. Critical of "America (meaning its flaws, whether its government or its cultural aspects)"?

Where is that arbitrary line? If I imply that I "fucking hate" America's policies, as set forth by government, does it mean I hate my country? If I condemn foreign policy, and make a case for 9/11 being a byproduct of that foreign policy, and have countless things about how "what goes around, comes around," when discussing the terrorist attacks, does that mean I hate my country? Or is "anti-American" just a semantic argument, like when Sean Hannity uses it, every time someone says something about the U.S. government?

If one can be damning of the American government's policies, and express awareness of atrocity that was brought on by those policies without being "Anti-American," what makes them fit the label of "Anti-American?"

**Sornaensis** · 05-22-2008 11:21 PM

The silly goat herders letting the wolves in sheeps' clothing into the herd will be our undoing.

**Universal Mind** · 05-23-2008 12:49 AM

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

What is it, exactly, that makes someone Anti-American, vs. Critical of "America (meaning its flaws, whether its government or its cultural aspects)"?

Where is that arbitrary line? If I imply that I "fucking hate" America's policies, as set forth by government, does it mean I hate my country? If I condemn foreign policy, and make a case for 9/11 being a byproduct of that foreign policy, and have countless things about how "what goes around, comes around," when discussing the terrorist attacks, does that mean I hate my country? Or is "anti-American" just a semantic argument, like when Sean Hannity uses it, every time someone says something about the U.S. government?

If one can be damning of the American government's policies, and express awareness of atrocity that was brought on by those policies without being "Anti-American," what makes them fit the label of "Anti-American?"

The line is between hating certain policies and hating the country itself. When somebody says that using nukes to end WWII in 1945 creates some strange magic that makes the United States achieve a moral debt from the gods or whatever so that people working in the World Trade Center in 2001 had death coming to them and says, "God damn America!" (not ..."certain American policies"), he is anti-American. When I say that the war on drugs is fucking terrible and has got to go, I am merely expressing strong disagreement with a specific policy.

**Oneironaut Zero** · 05-23-2008 05:15 AM

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

The line is between hating certain policies and hating the country itself. When somebody says that using nukes to end WWII in 1945 creates some strange magic that makes the United States achieve a moral debt from the gods or whatever so that people working in the World Trade Center in 2001 had death coming to them and says, "God damn America!" (not ..."certain American policies"), he is anti-American. When I say that the war on drugs is fucking terrible and has got to go, I am merely expressing strong disagreement with a specific policy.

I want to see your point as black and white as you do, but I just don't know. I just really hate when the words "Anti-American" are thrown around because of people's disdain for hating certain aspects of America. The quote (though I couldn't find anything more than an excerpt) was:

"The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing ‘God Bless America.’ No, no, no, God damn America, that’s in the Bible for killing innocent people. God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme.”

Whether his statements make him as a whole, "anti-American," I don't know that I can really say. Barring religious ideas of "what goes around comes around," how else could one make the point of the things listed above being deplorable, with any sense of passion, without being labeled by some as anti-American? Is it even possible?

**Universal Mind** · 05-23-2008 05:31 AM

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

I want to see your point as black and white as you do, but I just don't know. I just really hate when the words "Anti-American" are thrown around because of people's disdain for hating certain aspects of America. The quote (though I couldn't find anything more than an excerpt) was:

"The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing ‘God Bless America.’ No, no, no, God damn America, that’s in the Bible for killing innocent people. God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme.”

Whether his statements make him as a whole, "anti-American," I don't know that I can really say. Barring religious ideas of "what goes around comes around," how else could one make the point of the things listed above being deplorable, with any sense of passion, without being labeled by some as anti-American? Is it even possible?

He should have said, "God damn those laws and actions," or something like that, if he really believes all of that stuff he said. I could say that I disagree with certain points you make, and that alone would not mean that I hate you, but I would be getting hateful if I said, "God damn what you said," and it would be safe to say that I am all out anti-Oneironaut if I spoke with my true feelings and said, "God damn Oneironaut! God damn Oneironaut for as long as he continues to believe what he believes!" "God damn America" and "Down with the USA" are on the same sort of level. A damning from God is something very severe to wish on a nation.

**Oneironaut Zero** · 05-23-2008 05:45 AM

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

He should have said, "God damn those laws and actions," or something like that, if he really believes all of that stuff he said. I could say that I disagree with certain points you make, and that alone would not mean that I hate you, but I would be getting hateful if I said, "God damn what you said," and it would be safe to say that I am all out anti-Oneironaut if I spoke with my true feelings and said, "God damn Oneironaut! God damn Oneironaut for as long as he continues to believe what he believes!" "God damn America" and "Down with the USA" are on the same sort of level. A damning from God is something very severe to wish on a nation.

True enough. I can't really argue with that. Personally, I would say that I don't believe he hates the entirety of America, as his hyperbole would have suggested (in the same way that I could say "God Damn [my best friend] for royally screwing me over that one time" in the throws of anger, but not actually hate him) but - given the fact that Wright did say what he said, regardless of any implicit intention - I definitely see your point.

**Universal Mind** · 05-23-2008 06:27 AM

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

True enough. I can't really argue with that. Personally, I would say that I don't believe he hates the entirety of America, as his hyperbole would have suggested (in the same way that I could say "God Damn [my best friend] for royally screwing me over that one time" in the throws of anger, but not actually hate him) but - given the fact that Wright did say what he said, regardless of any implicit intention - I definitely see your point.

Oh no, I am not used to people agreeing with me after I talk to them about politics.

Thanks. :peace: