Does Michelle Obama overestimate Americans?

[Taosaur]

With Hillary out of the race, a lot of GOP attention is shifting to Michelle Obama. I won't repeat the memes, but the remains of Rove's smut-factory are trying to paint her as a cross between their depictions of Hillary and of Jeremiah Wright--in other words, an America-hating black bitch. It's nice to see Republicans recycling, but could some of the mud stick? Their sound byte of choice is of course the "For the first time in my life, I'm proud to be an American," but they've also cobbled together some open criticisms she's made about American policy and culture, for instance (paraphrasing here) that there's a lot of meanness in our culture. I think it's fair to say that both Obamas have been more open in their views about what needs changing in the U.S. and where we need to move forward than any serious candidate in most of our lifetimes. To me, that jibes pretty well with the message of "hope and change." I for one prefer a president who talks to me like a grown-up and calls a smear campaign for what it is, as opposed to our current one who conflates Hussein with 9/11 and expects me not to notice, requisitions aircraft carriers for photo-ops, and takes every serious issue from health care to fuel costs as an opportunity to cut a check to corporate backers, his underlings dropping misinformation through back channels and lighting fires like the Plame case to distract us the whole time. So, can we take it? Can we deal with honest rhetoric balancing criticism with praise? Can we accept any answers other than, "We are the chosen nation of Gawd!" and random permutations of "freedom...democracy...9/11?"

[Universal Mind]

Michelle Obama is not running for president, and she is not Barack's philosophical advisor or his terrorist friend. She is just his wife who hasn't hurt anybody. I don't think her comment about never having been proud of her country until this year is going to hurt Barack too much or be talked about too much more. She just comes across as a harmless and not too significant person who doesn't appreciate how many people have gone through nightmares and death to give her and much of the rest of the world the things she takes for granted.

[Taosaur]

Michelle Obama is not running for president, and she is not Barack's philosophical advisor or his terrorist friend. She is just his wife who hasn't hurt anybody. I don't think her comment about never having been proud of her country until this year is going to hurt Barack too much or be talked about too much more. She just comes across as a harmless and not too significant person who doesn't appreciate how many people have gone through nightmares and death to give her and much of the rest of the world the things she takes for granted. It's interesting that you find someone who's very likely to live in the White House with Barack next year "not too significant," in comparison to a minister he saw occasional Sundays and a local celebrity who invited him to some dinner parties. She's stated that her main role in the White House will be taking care of the kids, but she's also spoken extensively on her husband's behalf, demonstrating a shared mission as well as a personal bond. It would be nice to believe that people won't be putting words in her mouth as you just did for the remainder of the campaign, but if the past few days are any indication, odds are slim. As far as pride and taking things for granted, a great many Americans have had very little to feel proud about since the moon-landing, while others have used flag-waving as a smokescreen to take quite a lot for granted. I think what Mrs. Obama was talking about and what a lot of citizens are feeling for the first time is involvement in a worthwhile American endeavor. Some of us just aren't temperamentally suited to manufacture needs and pass the money from hand to hand until it's gone or gear up and go kill brown people overseas. Some of us don't consider children with guns scarring each other for life as the epitome of the American way. We don't buy the Cold War logic that if you just go to war long enough, eventually you'll secure peace, or that profiting from others' pain while siphoning off their resources will somehow lead to prosperity for all. We don't believe that this country sucks and we don't hate America, but we hope and many of us believe we can do better and be better. We're not content to stand on pride while the house falls down around us.

[Universal Mind]

It's interesting that you find someone who's very likely to live in the White House with Barack next year "not too significant," in comparison to a minister he saw occasional Sundays and a local celebrity who invited him to some dinner parties. She's stated that her main role in the White House will be taking care of the kids, but she's also spoken extensively on her husband's behalf, demonstrating a shared mission as well as a personal bond. It would be nice to believe that people won't be putting words in her mouth as you just did for the remainder of the campaign, but if the past few days are any indication, odds are slim. What words did I put in her mouth? Please tell me. I really want to know. Michelle is not Barack's philosophical advisor. I already explained that. Don't respond to my posts unless you read them first. As far as pride and taking things for granted, a great many Americans have had very little to feel proud about since the moon-landing, while others have used flag-waving as a smokescreen to take quite a lot for granted. I think what Mrs. Obama was talking about and what a lot of citizens are feeling for the first time is involvement in a worthwhile American endeavor. Some of us just aren't temperamentally suited to manufacture needs and pass the money from hand to hand until it's gone or gear up and go kill brown people overseas. Some of us don't consider children with guns scarring each other for life as the epitome of the American way. We don't buy the Cold War logic that if you just go to war long enough, eventually you'll secure peace, or that profiting from others' pain while siphoning off their resources will somehow lead to prosperity for all. Speaking of the Cold War, we won it. Now the Soviet Union does not exist, and they cannot take over the world. We landed a remote control robot on Mars, have consistently led the entire world in giving foreign aid, give more than half of the world hunger relief food, and have given two nations the ability to vote for their representatives, which they do in higher percentages than we do. That is some of the stuff to be proud of. If none of that means anything to Michelle, then screw her. Maybe she just doesn't know. But like I said, Michelle Obama is not significant. She is Barack's wife, not his mentor, and she has not hurt anybody. I am attracted to bimbos too, so I am not going to hold that against Barack. We don't believe that this country sucks and we don't hate America, but we hope and many of us believe we can do better and be better. We're not content to stand on pride while the house falls down around us. What does that have to do with anything?

[The Enterer]

The Republicans are going to need to be very careful with how they slime the Obamas. Here is an interesting opinion piece, and I couldn't agree with it more.

[Taosaur]

Here is an interesting opinion piece, and I couldn't agree with it more. Great link, thank you. I'd do some cut and paste if I weren't on my phone. The relevant angle for me is that Americans are tired of schoolyard politics and the image it creates for us. What words did I put in her mouth? Please tell me. I really want to know. "never having been proud of her country." Rather than make any effort to understand in context what she was expressing, you let the vultures at Fox News, The Drudge Report et al. carve out a sound-byte and tell you what it means. I can just as easily truncate it a little further and preserve more of the intent: "I am proud to be an American." Michelle is not Barack's philosophical advisor. I already explained that. Don't respond to my posts unless you read them first. Michelle Obama is not significant. She is Barack's wife, not his mentor, and she has not hurt anybody. I am attracted to bimbos too, so I am not going to hold that against Barack. The person you just described as "bimbo" went from sharing half the living room of a one-bedroom with her brother growing up to graduate cum laude from Princeton and move on to Harvard Law. She could own you in any debate and beat you out for any job she'd be willing to take. It leads me to wonder whether your statement came out of specific ignorance or general misogyny. What's more, she took that education back to work in her community, specifically in healthcare and education, fields presently commanding the people's attention and always vital to the national interest. I guarantee you she has more influence with Obama than either his ex-pastor or an acquaintance on the Chicago political scene. You might excuse her if she hasn't been sufficiently misty over Old Glory while working actively to improve the lives of the people. What you're asking for is politics as usual: obeisance paid to the priests and soldiers in exchange for a hand in the public coffers on behalf of past and future employers.

[Sornaensis]

Barack shut his wife up. Therefore she is not a significant character.

[Universal Mind]

"never having been proud of her country." Rather than make any effort to understand in context what she was expressing, you let the vultures at Fox News, The Drudge Report et al. carve out a sound-byte and tell you what it means. I can just as easily truncate it a little further and preserve more of the intent: "I am proud to be an American." She said it was the first time in her life to be proud of her country. In other words, before that, she had never been proud of her country. Prove me wrong. The person you just described as "bimbo" went from sharing half the living room of a one-bedroom with her brother growing up to graduate cum laude from Princeton and move on to Harvard Law. She could own you in any debate and beat you out for any job she'd be willing to take. It leads me to wonder whether your statement came out of specific ignorance or general misogyny. The comment she made was bimboish. It was terrible for her husband's campaign. It was idiotic to make that comment, and it was an idiotic comment. A lot of bimbos have books smarts. I don't think she could take me in a debate. Based on the political stances she takes, I know I could beat her on a lot of issues. Your point about misigyny involved major speculation. I said nothing about all women being bimbos. In fact, I am far from thinking that. It makes me wonder if you put your penis in tree holes. What's more, she took that education back to work in her community, specifically in healthcare and education, fields presently commanding the people's attention and always vital to the national interest. I guarantee you she has more influence with Obama than either his ex-pastor or an acquaintance on the Chicago political scene. Your guarantee is worth very little to me. If Barack too had never been proud of his country until this year, that is even more reason he needs to stay out of the presidency. You might excuse her if she hasn't been sufficiently misty over Old Glory while working actively to improve the lives of the people. What you're asking for is politics as usual: obeisance paid to the priests and soldiers in exchange for a hand in the public coffers on behalf of past and future employers. Uh, you are really pulling things out of your ass. What I want is intelligent economic policy that improves the country accompanied by awareness of the great things the United States has done and is doing. However, as I said, Michelle Obama is insignificant. I don't know why you are acting like an offended cult member. Do you have anybody important you would like to talk about? Maybe Hillary Clinton or Condoleeza Rice? that... was beautiful. Would you like to debate this, or do you just want to be a sidekick?

[Taosaur]

The comment she made was bimboish. It was terrible for her husband's campaign. It was idiotic to make that comment, and it was an idiotic comment. A lot of bimbos have books smarts. I don't think she could take me in a debate. Based on the political stances she takes, I know I could beat her on a lot of issues. Your point about misigyny involved major speculation. I said nothing about all women being bimbos. In fact, I am far from thinking that. It makes me wonder if you put your penis in tree holes. Okay, that made me lol, but I still find your 'bimbo' statement pretty inherently misogynistic, moreso when directed at someone of Michelle Obama's qualifications. And no, I don't find her statement 'bimboish'--she certainly didn't let slip anything dumber than you did calling her a bimbo. The fact that she and Barack speak honestly to the historical moment, rather than parroting the nationalism and piety of recent campains, is what this thread is about. This country has given at least half the people quite a lot of disappointment over the last eight years. The unprovoked and ill-informed invasion of Iraq shamed us; the regressive Dibs on Marriage Acts shamed us; Bush's re-election shamed us; the conduct of our contractors in Iraq shamed us. More and more Americans are coming to understand that the same people wagging fingers at Barack for not wearing a lapel pin have been smearing shit on the flag and making fools of us all for years. My hope is that when the Obamas make direct statements addressing present realities, the majority of Americans will forgive politically incorrect phrasing. If the Obamas' faith in Americans is justified, it may turn out that what the sniping jingoists at Fox News insist are gaffs will end up being just enough rope for the neo-con noise machine to hang itself.

[Universal Mind]

Okay, that made me lol, but I still find your 'bimbo' statement pretty inherently misogynistic, moreso when directed at someone of Michelle Obama's qualifications. And I find your support for Michelle Obama to be an indication that you have sex with farm animals. You did an Evel Knievel style jump to your bizarre conclusion. Bimbos do exist, and making such an asinine comment about the United States when your husband is running for president is a severely stupid thing to do. This thing about having the same opinion of all women is just ludicrous, and I would even say dishonest. And no, I don't find her statement 'bimboish'--she certainly didn't let slip anything dumber than you did calling her a bimbo. The fact that she and Barack speak honestly to the historical moment, rather than parroting the nationalism and piety of recent campains, is what this thread is about. This country has given at least half the people quite a lot of disappointment over the last eight years. The unprovoked and ill-informed invasion of Iraq shamed us; the regressive Dibs on Marriage Acts shamed us; Bush's re-election shamed us; the conduct of our contractors in Iraq shamed us. More and more Americans are coming to understand that the same people wagging fingers at Barack for not wearing a lapel pin have been smearing shit on the flag and making fools of us all for years. My hope is that when the Obamas make direct statements addressing present realities, the majority of Americans will forgive politically incorrect phrasing. If the Obamas' faith in Americans is justified, it may turn out that what the sniping jingoists at Fox News insist are gaffs will end up being just enough rope for the neo-con noise machine to hang itself. That is a lot of hate you just spewed, but it does not get around the fact that Michelle Obama is an idiot for saying what she said. Just look at the negativity it stirred up, and just look at the list of things I said she has to be proud of our country for doing since she was born. She said something very idiotic. That does not mean I think everybody who lives in Chicago is an idiot, or whatever strange conclusion you want to jump to.

[Taosaur]

That is a lot of hate you just spewed, but it does not get around the fact that Michelle Obama is an idiot for saying what she said. Just look at the negativity it stirred up, and just look at the list of things I said she has to be proud of our country for doing since she was born. She said something very idiotic. That does not mean I think everybody who lives in Chicago is an idiot, or whatever strange conclusion you want to jump to. How's this one? While you're not saying everyone in Chicago is an idiot, you are saying 71% of Americans are idiots according to this poll: http://www.pollingreport.com/right.htm 81% according to this one: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/04/us...hp&oref=slogin and 80% according to this one: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=90451351 Maybe some of those people did feel a little warm and tingly about America at some point in time, but the consensus since right around '05 (and for a lot of us more like '85) has been a resounding "WTF?!?" I can tell you what I'm proud of: The Declaration of Independence. The Constitution. Common Sense. These documents introduced some truly radical, revolutionary ideas that we haven't been honoring for shit in the thirty years I've been alive. Moreover, they are the foundation of an experimental and progressive nation, a nation loyal to principles, not persons, symbols or aristocracies. I'm proud of America when I see some sign that it still exists or ever did; those signs are few and far between these days, and Barack Obama is one.

[Xaqaria]

A lot of bimbos have books smarts. I don't think she could take me in a debate. I'm sure your tenure as a highschool geometry teacher makes you more than equipped to beat a doctor of law in honest debate. I'm sure your patented straw man tactic will leave her guessing. As long as you never admit defeat you're never wrong, right?

[Universal Mind]

I'm sure your tenure as a highschool geometry teacher makes you more than equipped to beat a doctor of law in honest debate. I'm sure your patented straw man tactic will leave her guessing. As long as you never admit defeat you're never wrong, right? My law degree and business knowledge might help too. I don't teach geometry any more, Mr. Assumptions. Now actually give a counterargument to something I said. You don't do that so much in this forum. I think we both know why that is.

[Xaqaria]

My law degree and business knowledge might help too. I don't teach geometry any more, Mr. Assumptions. Now actually give a counterargument to something I said. You don't do that so much in this forum. I think we both know why that is. Pics or it didn't happen. I really can't be arsed to argue at you UM. I'm not amused by shouting at brick walls. I will, however, provide links to all of my previous well sourced arguments that I've made on this forum that you usually meet with the classic strawman side step (as you like to call, "Ole' reliable") If you so desire. Oh, and also; talking heads notwithstanding.

[lysergic]

With Hillary out of the race, a lot of GOP attention is shifting to Michelle Obama. I won't repeat the memes, but the remains of Rove's smut-factory are trying to paint her as a cross between their depictions of Hillary and of Jeremiah Wright--in other words, an America-hating black bitch. It's nice to see Republicans recycling, but could some of the mud stick? Their sound byte of choice is of course the "For the first time in my life, I'm proud to be an American," but they've also cobbled together some open criticisms she's made about American policy and culture, for instance (paraphrasing here) that there's a lot of meanness in our culture. I think it's fair to say that both Obamas have been more open in their views about what needs changing in the U.S. and where we need to move forward than any serious candidate in most of our lifetimes. To me, that jibes pretty well with the message of "hope and change." I for one prefer a president who talks to me like a grown-up and calls a smear campaign for what it is, as opposed to our current one who conflates Hussein with 9/11 and expects me not to notice, requisitions aircraft carriers for photo-ops, and takes every serious issue from health care to fuel costs as an opportunity to cut a check to corporate backers, his underlings dropping misinformation through back channels and lighting fires like the Plame case to distract us the whole time. So, can we take it? Can we deal with honest rhetoric balancing criticism with praise? Can we accept any answers other than, "We are the chosen nation of Gawd!" and random permutations of "freedom...democracy...9/11?" that... was beautiful.