Bush takes another step backwards

[ninja9578]

Man, he really doesn't like the Bill of Rights http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080710/...t_surveillance

[Minervas Phoenix]

[apachama]

Those videos are amazing. I'm going to miss Bush when he stops being American president. I've always thought he's kind of cute. He comes over as a bit helpless, well-meaning but can't help getting things wrong. And his accent is nice. I get the feeling that that he's be kind of nice to meet, if it weren't for the fact that he'd probably think he's better than me because he has a full time job and a car. Anyway, yeah. Wire tapping is apalling. How does he still get these things passed?

[Minervas Phoenix]

Yeah apachama it makes sense this is one of the reasons he is chosen for sock puppet, you don't want him to go off stage.

[tkdyo]

while I agree this is not the right direction, I can help but notice the bias in the report "lame duck" when he still gets pretty much everything he wants done.

[skysaw]

while I agree this is not the right direction, I can help but notice the bias in the report "lame duck" when he still gets pretty much everything he wants done. "Lame Duck" is not a bias or even a negative comment. It is a specific term used to describe a president near the end of his second term. "Lame" means it typically becomes more and more difficult for him to make a difference in the White House because people are concentrating too much on the next election.

[tkdyo]

I suppose, but the way they use it just sounds like they are trying to make him sound worse than he is. Then again, I hate politics so I probably read in to most things too much. Just know I agree this was not a good decision

[ninja9578]

Anyway, yeah. Wire tapping is apalling. How does he still get these things passed? People who are suspected are locked away indefinitely, he also got rid of the right to a speedy trial. If it never goes to court then it can't be appealed to the supreme court to overrule it.

[Schmaven]

One by one, all our freedoms are being taken away. Land of the free my ass. Soon it's going to be renamed "Land of the Police State" The way the US is going reminded me of this: There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible to live without breaking laws.

[Half/Dreaming]

If you, or anyone you know, has been arrested from wire tapping, please let me know. Because I have never heard of such stories. And who gives a fuck about the Hajji at Guantanamo Bay. We don't just arrest innocent Arabs for the hell of it. TRUST ME. We go through High Value Target and target analysis training, and believe me, if the have no reason to be shipped away, they are let free back into the sandbox. But I'm sure you will believe whatever suits you best, and not the word of somebody who actually deals with this shit. It causes you sexual pleasure to assume there is a conspiracy.

[Original Poster]

You keep saying trust me, we're only getting the bad guys, but with no transparency there is NO accountability. That's what kills it, all this shit is going on behind the scenes and we're learning absolutely nothing about it, we're just supposed to trust that this witch hunt is only killing witches. How many times in history have only the guilty ended up paying the penalty? How many people killed by iron maidens were actually heretics? How many people burned at the stake were really witches? How many people on trial by McCarthy were actually communists? Why can't these arrests and trials and imprisonments take place in the public eye? How are they risking the operation by saying, "The following people have been arrested this month for suspicion of terrorism, and they're at THIS facility being tried." I mean it's not like we're asking them to warn the people they're about kidnap, we just want a little opportunity to ensure accountability as the people in a government that is supposed to be ruled by the people.

[Half/Dreaming]

No, you don't understand the process. This is exactly what I mean. If they are not absolutely guilty, BEYOND what it takes to convict somebody in the United States, they are released by our unit on the spot. There is no chance for the shady higher ups to get their hands on the EPW's. That only comes later, with HVT's (high value targets). The evidence is purely physical, ie bomb making material or several AK47s and RPG's etc etc. We are the average joes. We have no interest in top secret detaining for information or anything like that. If they do nothing wrong, they are released. Also, it is MANDATORY that pictures of the evidence are included in the arrest. If photographs are absent, the detainee is released. If they ARE guilty, with pure physical evidence AND photographs to back it up, then away they go. And I don't give a shit where they go or what happens to them. Maybe if your friends had been blown up like mine have you would understand that statement. All I'm saying is that you don't understand how the EPW system works, and you shouldn't pretend that you do.

[ninja9578]

We don't just arrest innocent Arabs for the hell of it. TRUST ME. We go through High Value Target and target analysis training, and believe me, if the have no reason to be shipped away, they are let free back into the sandbox. Then they should have no trouble getting a warrant.

[Lëzen]

I don't devalue Bush's administration so much as I do Bush as a person. He's just...I mean, God. "Drooling Moron" couldn't do another person quite the amount of justice it does him (I'm saying this in a completely literal tone - I have literally seen drool pass his lips during a televised speech. It was hilarious). Anyway, he's made it perfectly clear (as in, has said it himself) that he would prefer a dictatorship. What kind of an idiot president would openly admit something like that?

[skysaw]

If they ARE guilty, with pure physical evidence AND photographs to back it up, then away they go. And I don't give a shit where they go or what happens to them. Maybe if your friends had been blown up like mine have you would understand that statement. All I'm saying is that you don't understand how the EPW system works, and you shouldn't pretend that you do. I may not understand the intricacies of the that particular system, but I can see quite clearly the problem with it as you have outlined it. Ever notice how finding "evidence" is not enough to win a normal court trial? Ever notice that those suspected of crimes get something called "due process?" Ever heard the phrase "innocent until proven guilty?" Ever wonder why judges are not also juries? "Trust me, we're doing it right" instills absolutely no confidence in anyone. Should you sign a contract without reading the fine print if the other party says "trust me?" I know I won't.

[harvey123456]

If you, or anyone you know, has been arrested from wire tapping, please let me know. Because I have never heard of such stories. And who gives a fuck about the Hajji at Guantanamo Bay. We don't just arrest innocent Arabs for the hell of it. TRUST ME. We go through High Value Target and target analysis training, and believe me, if the have no reason to be shipped away, they are let free back into the sandbox. But I'm sure you will believe whatever suits you best, and not the word of somebody who actually deals with this shit. It causes you sexual pleasure to assume there is a conspiracy. No, you don't understand the process. This is exactly what I mean. If they are not absolutely guilty, BEYOND what it takes to convict somebody in the United States, they are released by our unit on the spot. There is no chance for the shady higher ups to get their hands on the EPW's. That only comes later, with HVT's (high value targets). The evidence is purely physical, ie bomb making material or several AK47s and RPG's etc etc. We are the average joes. We have no interest in top secret detaining for information or anything like that. If they do nothing wrong, they are released. Also, it is MANDATORY that pictures of the evidence are included in the arrest. If photographs are absent, the detainee is released. If they ARE guilty, with pure physical evidence AND photographs to back it up, then away they go. And I don't give a shit where they go or what happens to them. Maybe if your friends had been blown up like mine have you would understand that statement. All I'm saying is that you don't understand how the EPW system works, and you shouldn't pretend that you do. You know you are so fucking naive that it astounds me. Now I never want to resort to Ad hominem remarks, but you just make me sick. Quit, watching, fucking, Fox news, and, look, at, what, the, fuck, is, really, going, on.

[Half/Dreaming]

You know you are so fucking naive that it astounds me. Now I never want to resort to Ad hominem remarks, but you just make me sick. Quit, watching, fucking, Fox news, and, look, at, what, the, fuck, is, really, going, on. I don't watch Fox News, youngling. Are you even aware what my occupation is? What makes you more qualified to discuss this topic than I am? Ninja, "warrants" don't exist in a warzone. Are you suggesting that if we see a dude fire at us with an RPG, and then walk in his front door, that we have to go back to the FOB to get a warrant before we can raid the house? Once again, TRUST ME. Beyond getting blown up, our biggest issue and burdon is getting enough evidence to keep a detainee. Do even know about the figerprinting and facial recognition systems we put the detainees through? Probably not. Link to follow.

[apachama]

Ninja, "warrants" don't exist in a warzone. Are you suggesting that if we see a dude fire at us with an RPG, and then walk in his front door, that we have to go back to the FOB to get a warrant before we can raid the house? But... wiretapping happens in places other than warzones. I assume that the United States of America is not currently suffering from an Iraq style insurgency problem? I trust my present government. I'm sure that appropriate safeguards are in place to make sure that the system is rarely ever used for the wrong reasons and that corruption is often prevented. However, in the past, corruption has happened in democratic systems (i.e. Watergate, the election of the Nazis, or (a few months ago) the "bugging" of a British MP. Because power can sometimes fall into the hands of the unscrupulous, I think it is best if there are appropriate checks and balances in place.

[Harrycombs]

Obama wont be much better. Be ready to be disappointed at how little we matter in this election.

[ChrissyMaria]

I've been reading about a possible great depression of 2008 or 2009, I think something big is going to happen, and it scares me to death.

[Exhalent]

Obama wont be much better. Be ready to be disappointed at how little we matter in this election. Agreed.

[ChrissyMaria]

Its not just this election, every election since woodrow wilson has been a choice for the status quo. Bob Barr or Ron Paul are the only real choices. Barr says we are fastly approaching the point of no return, where america is lost, for good.

[Harrycombs]

I've been reading about a possible great depression of 2008 or 2009, I think something big is going to happen, and it scares me to death. It shouldn't scare you. This will inevitable create a class consciousness, like those of the early 20th century. It will be the perfect time for a peoples revolution. This could be good. Sort of like how the first World War also helped trigger the Russian revolution and was partially responsible for the creation of the Soviet Union. Its not just this election, every election since woodrow wilson has been a choice for the status quo. Bob Barr or Ron Paul are the only real choices. Ron Paul was honest, but he would have wrecked the country as well. Barr says we are fastly approaching the point of no return, where america is lost, for good. America wont matter in the long run. A new, and hopefully better, country should come into existence.

[dragonoverlord]

America wont matter in the long run. A new, and hopefully better, country should come into existence. There already is one...It's called Canada.

[Harrycombs]

There already is one...It's called Canada. Canada already exists. I am talking about a new country with a completely new government coming into place.