Thread: Third parties, who do you like more in the election

I'll do it..I'll say it

my vote was on hilary

so now I have no vote.

I voted for Hillary in the primaries by a sort of random vote (had no real preference). Now I'm voting for Obama. I feel positive enough about him to have his campaign sticker on my car. I don't think he's the embodiment of all things good and peaceful, as the media is making him out to be. But he's, in my opinion, a better choice than the alternative.

For me its: Paul, Barr, Nader

I don't like nader a whole lot but, he is better then most red or blue candidates.

My favorite pick right now is a tie between paul and barr, barr is more of a 'mainstream' libertarian, and he has a better chance, being younger also.

I would pretty much agree with guerilla, based on my superficial understanding of U.S. politics. What are Paul/Barrs stances on universal health care though? I mean, I would kinda self-identify as a libertarian, but I think universal health care or whatever it's called is definitely part of what a government exists for. The government should protect people of crime, but also of natural disasters and any recognized physical or mental ailment or illness as well. Basically anything that ensures safety and health if a citizen wishes for that.

Well barr and paul both don't support national health care.

So they have my vote.

I hate when people say "In europe healthcare is FREE!"

No, its not free there, its payed by taxdollars, coming from their pockets...they just don't pay at the office thats all....and they have longer waits, doctors don't get good pay. I heard most docs in the UK have a private practice on the side just to make good money.

Also, I know a few people who were treated in the UK and one woman had a broken bone, and they set the bone in wrong and it healed all retarted, so she had to get it re-broken and re-done here in the states.

makes me sick to my stomach when I hear people say they're moving to canada or the uk for healthcare, sure our healthcare system is totally broken...but the care you get is top notch..if you get the care.

Originally Posted by guerilla

I hate when people say "In europe healthcare is FREE!"

No, its not free there, its payed by taxdollars, coming from their pockets...

Well, duh. The difference is that it's socialized, i.e. you don't pay only for yourself but everybody pays for everybody.

they just don't pay at the office thats all...

No, that's not all. A socialized health care system means that poor people with cancer can seek treatment without having to go on national TV to beg for donations. It means that people don't have to ponder bartering their health for food and clothing.

.and they have longer waits, doctors don't get good pay. I heard most docs in the UK have a private practice on the side just to make good money.

Well, that coming from somebody who's never lived here... Speaking for Germany, doctors are amongst the wealthiest and they do good work.

Also, I know a few people who were treated in the UK and one woman had a broken bone, and they set the bone in wrong and it healed all retarted, so she had to get it re-broken and re-done here in the states. makes me sick to my stomach when I hear people say they're moving to canada or the uk for healthcare, sure our healthcare system is totally broken...but the care you get is top notch..if you get the care.

This is just ignorant. The health care you get here is just fine. It's not like Europe is a bunch of developing nations.
Also, I would be pretty certain that U.S. doctors have made mistakes before so that's really just an ignorant statement to make.

I liked Obama a little more at first because he wanted to withdraw from Iraq immediately. He just changed his mind out of nowhere and now he wants to stay. That brings up another point.

This is rubbish, McCain was sprending lies about Obama changing his Iraq plan. However, if you seen the Berlin speech or go to his website it says he will withdraw the troops. I don't know what you mean immediately. 16 month withdraw time table is find, it better then ten more years in Iraq or a hundred.

So yeah, he hasen't change his Iraq plan, which because he has the support of the Iraqi prime minister then it will happen. Saying that if you want to stay in Iraq for seven or ten more years vote for McCain, if you want out vote for Obama.

makes me sick to my stomach when I hear people say they're moving to canada or the uk for healthcare, sure our healthcare system is totally broken...but the care you get is top notch..if you get the care.

Actually the NHS is actually really good healthcare. Anecdotal evidence about having bad doctors is not really reliable. If your in the UK and get sick then you get treated and it a fair system, although there is some problems. Free healthcare is good because if your poor you can get treated. America healthcare system is kind of like if your rich then your find, however if your poor then sorry.

I feel sorry for Children or people who have children and they can't get healthcare or there insurance won't pay out.

You must agree free healthcare for children http://www.naturalnews.com/020586.html unless you like sick children or something.

Originally Posted by Serkat

Well, duh. The difference is that it's socialized, i.e. you don't pay only for yourself but everybody pays for everybody.No, that's not all. A socialized health care system means that poor people with cancer can seek treatment without having to go on national TV to beg for donations. It means that people don't have to ponder bartering their health for food and clothing.Well, that coming from somebody who's never lived here... Speaking for Germany, doctors are amongst the wealthiest and they do good work.

This is just ignorant. The health care you get here is just fine. It's not like Europe is a bunch of developing nations.
Also, I would be pretty certain that U.S. doctors have made mistakes before so that's really just an ignorant statement to make.

I'm not trying to glorify our healthcare, or trying to say europe is a 3rd world area, I'm just saying socalized medicine is NOT the answer.


I don't believe in any social programs really whatsoever, government getting involved in ANYTHING usually means incompetent bureaucrats running the show.

I just don't agree with people who like the whole universal health care idea, its just not my cup of tea.

I'm sure in germany or other nations there is good care but, I just don't like the system being government run and regulated, if you wanna get to the bottom of me...what I'm trying to really say is:

I do not trust government.

Originally Posted by guerilla

I'm not trying to glorify our healthcare, or trying to say europe is a 3rd world area, I'm just saying socalized medicine is NOT the answer.


I don't believe in any social programs really whatsoever, government getting involved in ANYTHING usually means incompetent bureaucrats running the show.

I just don't agree with people who like the whole universal health care idea, its just not my cup of tea.

I'm sure in germany or other nations there is good care but, I just don't like the system being government run and regulated, if you wanna get to the bottom of me...what I'm trying to really say is:

I do not trust government.

Well, the same goes for me. You're always free to quit and go private insurance though. I'd also like to see something more along the lines of a voucher system or whatever. I think many government-related problems could be reduced if, instead of the services being run by the government the government would act like a broker or organizer between private individuals and companies, i.e. privatizing most stuff, loosening regulation and merely distributing the money for the different sectors to the individuals, like schools, education, health, insurances etc. Also, some of these government services should be mandatory (police, government systems, education, health, public property etc.), while others should be voluntary. This would increase efficiency, thereby saving tax-payer's money, giving them more freedom to choose, more competition, and still maintaining a certain level of social security for the poor.

Serkat for President 2008!

I'm not sure what party you are Serkat but it just makes sense for any libertarian to be against nationalized health care. We Americans need to be able to run ourselves. I have learned not to trust the government with most things, and I don't think I could trust them with providing health care.

Personally (being Libertarian), I don't like either candidate. But, McCain is much more moderate, where as Obama is the most liberal Liberal in Congress. I also disagree with a lot of his stances (Obama that is).

Originally Posted by dreamsinmymynd

I'm not sure what party you are Serkat but it just makes sense for any libertarian to be against nationalized health care. We Americans need to be able to run ourselves. I have learned not to trust the government with most things, and I don't think I could trust them with providing health care.

So you are against federal police as well, and in favor of private armies?

Originally Posted by Serkat

So you are against federal police as well, and in favor of private armies?

Actually, that wouldn't work to well itself. We need as little government interference as possible, not none. The only real duty of a government in my opinion is to protect the people from harm and to change the law when it is requested. You think that would be easy in America when the government is run by the PEOPLE, but unluckily it is only run by the power-hungry people. Private health care hasn't been the best thing considering that the companies just want money, but that is what fuels free economy, and I'm sure the government would screw everything up.

Originally Posted by dreamsinmymynd

Actually, that wouldn't work to well itself. I said as little government interference as possible, not none. The only real duty of a government in my opinion is to protect the people from harm

Hence socialized police, fire- and rescue-service and socialized health care.

Originally Posted by Serkat

Hence socialized police, fire- and rescue-service and socialized health care.

That is different though. Most people wouldn't trust a private company patrolling the streets arresting criminals. Doctors would be doctors whether they are hired by the government or privatized hospitals. It is the same thing. Like Guerilla said, the only difference is that people have to pay through tax rather than through payments, and we should just keep as many services out of the government's hands as possible before it becomes a communism.

Originally Posted by dreamsinmymynd

That is different though. Most people wouldn't trust a private company patrolling the streets arresting criminals. Doctors would be doctors whether they are hired by the government or privatized hospitals. It is the same thing. Like Guerilla said, the only difference is that people have to pay through tax rather than through payments, and we should just keep as many services out of the government's hands as possible before it becomes a communism.

I'm not saying that government should run the relevant institutions but that the payment should be socialized so that everybody can get treatment as needed, no matter the economic class.

Don't forget, we also have socialized roads, bridges, schools, libraries, recreational parks, playgrounds, zoos, museums, 911 service (mostly), food safety, space exploration, study grants, street cleaning, and hundreds of other services. I guess we should get rid of all those too?

Please explain why (in your own words) the dividing line is at healthcare.

My honest guess is that healthcare is the dividing line because all those who make billions of dollars taking advantage of our current system have spent a considerable amount of effort and money to convince you that it is somehow different, and shouldn't be managed in the same way. All the pharmaceutical and insurance companies, and those politicians getting kickbacks from them have managed to put such a stigma on socialized medicine, that Americans have bought wholesale into the notion.

Originally Posted by guerilla

No, its not free there, its payed by taxdollars, coming from their pockets...they just don't pay at the office thats all....and they have longer waits, doctors don't get good pay. I heard most docs in the UK have a private practice on the side just to make good money.

Also, I know a few people who were treated in the UK and one woman had a broken bone, and they set the bone in wrong and it healed all retarted, so she had to get it re-broken and re-done here in the states.

makes me sick to my stomach when I hear people say they're moving to canada or the uk for healthcare, sure our healthcare system is totally broken...but the care you get is top notch..if you get the care.

Fuckoff, doctors probably get paid on average $ 180, 000 a year. They are paid fucking fine. IN the USA, there are 40 mill without health insurance. Here, whenever I have an ailment, I can walk into A & E. Its easy. It is fucking easy. And it is fucking better.

Originally Posted by harvey123456

Fuckoff, doctors probably get paid on average $ 180, 000 a year. They are paid fucking fine. IN the USA, there are 40 mill without health insurance. Here, whenever I have an ailment, I can walk into A & E. Its easy. It is fucking easy. And it is fucking better.

Gday mate, someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed?

Originally Posted by skysaw

Don't forget, we also have socialized roads, bridges, schools, libraries, recreational parks, playgrounds, zoos, museums, 911 service (mostly), food safety, space exploration, study grants, street cleaning, and hundreds of other services.

And think about how weakly run those things are. Have you ever seen orange barrels in the same place on a road for four years straight? Do you ever drive by road crews and see that nobody is doing anything? I lived in Oxford, Mississippi for five years when I was a kid. That ENTIRE time, the same stretch of Highway 6 was being "worked on", which means there were orange barrels and lazy ass people doing nothing all over it. That stuff happens because nobody at the top is making a profit. Without that factor, people do a half ass job. Healthcare is life and death, and it cannot be treated that way. The pathetic horror story that is 911 in Jackson, Mississippi is something that can never work its way into the healthcare system. Those idiots sometimes don't even answer the damn phone. I could tell you about ten stories involving me and people close to me that are beyond appalling about 911. The same is true about the other government programs you listed, except for one. Space exploration is different because everybody working in it is in it for the love of it. NASA workers are all excited about advancing space exploration. It is not about profit for those people. Doctors do not exactly work that way. They are all about money and prestige. If they start getting shorted on that, the way they operate will be completely different. It will be a disaster. It can't happen. It is out of the question.

Canada has a very, very slow healthcare system. Imagine how much a medical defect worries people. It will eat a hole in you all day every day. Now imagine having to wait months to see somebody about it, and then waiting months longer to see the specialist, and then waiting months longer to to see somebody about whether or not you need surgery, and then waiting months and months to get the surgery. Here, it happens rapidly because we have greedy ass doctors running things. Yes, they are greedy as Hell, very shallow, and all about image and money. But that is a very good thing for getting things done. I have my problems with shallow people, but they serve a necessary function in the system. We have poor people going to Canada to get free surgery and stuff, but we also have Canadians coming here to actually get the damn surgery before they reach retirement. Also, it is illegal for hospitals to turn people down for emergency treatment here. Our system is the only way.

Another thing that disturbs me about socialized medicine is that it will greatly inhibit our advancing medical technology. It is greed that is driving that too. We need to keep making progress like we are. If we turn our healthcare system into something that works like our public school system, things are going to start to really suck.

I'm Afraid UM is dead on balls accurate right there.

So assuming someone broke has a chronic illness, let's take chronic sinusitis, and needs to undergo surgery to resolve this illness, should this be privately paid? And if he can't get the money together, he has no right to get treated? Mind that this is in no way an "emergency", you can still go to work with this.

Originally Posted by Serkat

So assuming someone broke has a chronic illness, let's take chronic sinusitis, and needs to undergo surgery to resolve this illness, should this be privately paid? And if he can't get the money together, he has no right to get treated? Mind that this is in no way an "emergency", you can still go to work with this.

It is everybody's responsibility to get their own health insurance, but there are government programs we have and should have for people who cannot work. We have Medicaid and Medicare. You can get private health insurance for as low as $150 a month. We also have private charity organizations. A lot of hospitals will give the surgery and then send you a bill that you can pay off in increments, but there are limits to what kinds of surgery you can get. There is a problem in that picture, but nothing like a healthcare system gone public school.