http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/17/n...citizens-next/
I can't believe we have to pay to get our lives tracked.
Printable View
http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/17/n...citizens-next/
I can't believe we have to pay to get our lives tracked.
If the government handed out RFIDs for free, it would be too obvious, wouldn't it? If people have to pay a nominal fee, then they can say, "It can't be a police state, because we paid for these things".
You people sound way to paranoid. RFIDs are a good thing, they will allow your medical records to be brought up if you aren't conscious. I know my dogs all have them.
You're way to accepting. You fail to see the [negative] potential these things have, especially in the wrong hands.
Yeah but you forget, how easy it is to hack and even clone them. Wow, what a scary future.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
I think I remeber Discovery channel was going to have a MithBusters episode, show how easy this can be. But it was canned!!!!! by who, you ask?.......I think you already have an idea.
If you have a tag on your ID, the government can effectively track you, because every shopping mall, school, mailbox, etc. can easily be outfitted with a scanner. By combining the pings on all the scanners they can track your movements in near real-time. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to come up with creative ways this can be used to enslave a population.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
Also, I believe it was Benjamin Franklin who said "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." You would be wise to contemplate these words.
They don't have wifi transmitters in them. You can't scan them from any kind of distance, you have to have the scanner directly over it. You guys have to stop reading Orwell and pick up a Scientific American.
Most new credit cards already have RFID in them. I was slightly surprised to find that mine do. Chipped cards usually have a radiowave like symbol on the back, along with trademarks like "blink" or "paypass". You can also see the location of the chip if you look at the reflection of light off the back of the card. There will be a small square "disturbance" in the card's surface on the right hand side of the card's back.
err wrrrrooonnggg (maybe)Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
:shock:
Good argument. You mean something like this? http://www.iautomate.com/r500sp.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by malac
450 feet? You know that's not the same type of RIFD that comes in a chip right? That might be able to read one of those chips that you wear when you run a marathon or the ones worn for house arrest.
They make RIFD chips with even longer range than that, FastPass is an RIFD
Those aren't the same type of chips that are implanted into my dogs. That's like comparing a magnetron gun to a microwave oven.
I find this extremely ironic considering SciAm just did an article about how American RFIDs can be read with any scanner from up to 30 feet.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=...-could-be-used
LO FUCKING L.
Anyone rember Ident-I-Eeze from The H2G2? xD
Anyone remember that goodbye thread you started in the lounge?Quote:
Originally Posted by Seismosaur
Uh, link?
Dude it was like 2 weeks ago. You started a thread saying how you were leaving and shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seismosaur
.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seismosaur
I beg to differ, the day I see an RFID in my prescence im going to step on it and light it on fire.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
SO owned haha... :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Jeff777
You go girl!Quote:
Originally Posted by guerilla
hehe, after burning and crushing it I'll mail it to the government and write a letter telling them to wear them, we should track their every movement and invade their privacy, and see how they like it, karma :)
Omg, thats it, I swear thats the solution to government, we spy on them and we track their movements through RFID, then we the people will be in control once again.
LolQuote:
Originally Posted by Seismosaur
Is there any way that I may join your fantasy world or is it members only?Quote:
Originally Posted by guerilla
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...sTempLeave.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Seismosaur
:D
HAHA good call taking a screenshot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
OH SHI-Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
To the guy who said RFID's are good? WTF dude. They will track your every move you aren't at least a bit suspicious since george bush just created an angency that is tapping everyones phones and reading your emails. What's next? getting Fined for Not spying on your neighbor? This is how Totalitarian laws get passed. They slowly keep getting pushed into society bit by bit. One by one people except Small sacrifices of freedom. Over time you wake up inside the 4th Reich. Wake up.
Amen Ranma.
I did because they can't be read from long distances. Those things I wear on my shoes for marathons have a range of about 2 feet and their transmitters are the size of a bottle cap, implanted ones are tiny. They're aren't GPS devices.
I'd rather have paramedics be able to get my medical records and allergies if I'm unconscious. Abusive government will end in a few months and that stupid PATRIOT Act will be gone.
For those worried about identity theft. With someone's SS number and access to a medical database you can get someone's medical records. Credit cards are programmable, which is far easier to clone than an RFID.
PWNT!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
First of all, they can be read from 30 feet. Second, it doesn't matter because all the government would need to do is install scanners on the doors of all public buildings similar to the ones you already walk through in every store. Then every time you get scanned you show up as a blip on a map. Interpolate the blips, and you are now being TRACKED.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
Don't count on it. Governments never willingly give up control. History has proven this time and again.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
Under who's Administration? Certainly not McCain's or Obama's.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
They can track you by putting a camera in the door of any building. Face recognition is good enough to pick anyone out of a group. They already use it in England and have been for 10 years. Those cameras can see you from hundreds of feet away. Interpolate the recognitions and they have your path.
30 feet is not the implantable chips, those are much more powerful transmitters with the most sensitive receivers. Personal chips I believe have 128 bit encryption. Think you can crack that? I'll see you in a thousand years. They can't even break the iTunes encryption and there are far more people working on that.
I think I remember they did a debate on TV of this. One of the issues and stories were like this:
Say, Melissa (made up name) walks down the street one day. Its a quiet day, not so many people out that day. She just came back from renting her favorite movie. She suddenly hears a scream. Its a murder in progess just around the corner. The moment she turns to see, she sees a man on the floor and another man running away. She feels scared herself so she flees in distress and calls for help.
Hours later, her house door is busted down and she is arrested for suspicion of murder.
What happened here??? The only things the police had to go with were that her RFID and the victims RFID and had the same GPS location the murder occured. (The killer didn't have his with him at the time). Also because Melissa fled the scene, she is viewed as a major person of interest. With no other clues to go on and only the fact that she was in the wrong place at the wrong time, but this time with actual tracking records. She is doomed to her unwanted fate.
Thats really all the details I can remember of that debate and I may have left a lot of important facts out. There were plenty more interesting stories brought up on the subject of RFIDs. Just wish I could remember :roll:
If that were true it would be a cause for concern, but such technology does not currently exist the way you're describing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
The size of the chip really doesn't matter much because it's a tranceiver, not a transmitter. Anyway, a chip in a driver's license is just as good because people carry those everywhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
The government has the passwords.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
I hate to be a bitch but this MUST be said, if you believe the abuses of government will end after this election, you need to get your head out of the sand, seriously.
Obama and Mccain are literally the same candidate, candidates of the status quo, who lie and say anything to become elected.
Once elected, they don't give a fuck about you, me your family or anyone else, they won't uphold & defend the constitution and they will not repeal the military commisions act or the patriot act I and II, they will not end the war in Iraq and they will not end the war on terror, they also will not cut taxes, and they also will not defend our borders and our civil liberties.
What they will do, both fucktard candidates, is add more government programs, increase the size of an already out of control big government, and minimize our little freedom that remains.
Logan Airport, T.F. Green, San Francisco International Airport, and Fresno Airport already use it and have been for several years.Quote:
Originally Posted by drewmandan
Parts of Tampa are outfitted with cameras and have been for years.
London was the first city to make use of the cameras, they installed then in 1998.
The software to do it is actually fairly simple from a technical standpoint. I've love to discuss that in the tech forum.
Come again? Not true, a company has the right to hold that kind of information. Most of these companies are international anyway and can tell the US government to go to hell. It would be illegal for the government to acquire those kinds of passwords for medical records. Medical records are confidential, even to the government.Quote:
The government has the passwords.
guerilla, if you want to live in an anarchical society, go to Antarctica. Governments need to be in place to keep society running. The law clearly states that the government may not tap your phone or internet connection or credit card statements without a permit (taken away by PATRIOT of course, but as soon as it gets to the supreme court it will be shot down assuming it doesn't expire first.) That liberty will be extended to RFIDs.
I'm going to give you the same argument I give when taking about gay marriage: ahem. If you don't want one then don't get one and shut the fuck up.
You put way too much trust in your government.
Why does everyone always say anarchy when someone displays ANY disatisfaction with government, I swear to god im gonna rip my hair out.
All I was freakin saying is that the two party system is a dictatorship in disguise, they control everything and they lie to us daily and people like you ninja gobble it down like a big mac.
Honestly ninja, if you believe the patriot act will be repealed, you are INSANE, it will never be repealed under the two party system, it will only be expanded, taking away our rights....but don't use logic, just keep spewing comments about how I should goto antarctica which make no sense to the arguement at hand.
Oh lord, good thing I moved. Just a matter of time though, I daresay. ;-;
You guys, like guerilla, continually treat 'the government' like a seperate entitiy. It isn't. It is the whole country.
This is why we need to switch to some kind of Decentralized government... An isocracy of sorts.
Then people REALLY ARE the government...
But yea. Government = Group of people. Not some dictator handing out orders...
You're telling me that there's software that can identify faces in real-time from any angle and lighting conditions, and it can do this with dozens of faces simultaneously? And it's small enough and easy enough to install that it could potentially be put in every store and government office? Right...Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
An RFID scanner, on the other hand, is just a small computer with a transmitter. It can be made small enough to fit in a pocket.
I'm talking about the ones that actually exist, namely driver's license tags. The government has the passwords to those, obviously. They are government issued driver's licenses...Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
Society does not require government. If you want detailed reasoning as to why, I suggest you visit freedomainradio.com and listen to the podcasts on that topic. As for the Patriot Act, you're incredibly naive if you think it will be 100% repealed.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
I never explicitly stated that the government was a thing; in fact in other threads I have tried to make the point that it's an emergent entity of society. But at any rate, the fact that the government isn't real just makes certain actions that much more abhorrent. For example, someone else can take my money at gun point because of where I live, but I can't take their money, can I? How does that make sense? It only makes sense if the government was real.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seismosaur
I agree about the decentralized government in that it would be better. I can imagine communities of, say, a few thousand people governing themselves and trading with one another. I think that sort of society would function better in every way that our current model.
Decentralized government for the win, I say....actually...wouldn't a global decentralized government work even better? there would be no nations and no armies to fight with if its decentralized no?
Well that's what I meant. Like the entire world living in close-knit communities, where people are free to live and work wherever they choose and whatnot.Quote:
Originally Posted by guerilla
Any normal lighting conditions, any angle less than 20 degrees off centre and hundreds of faces at once, not dozens. They've been used at the last couple superbowls to watch for terrorists. A dozen people at once? Where are you getting your information? Those cameras had to go through 90,000 people, do you know how long that would take if the cameras could only go through a dozen at a time?Quote:
Originally Posted by drewmandan
The airports I mentioned also have thousands of people going through them every day. 12 at a time would be worthless.
Also can compensate for sunglasses, long hair. It's not the image recognition thing like the cheap software that's built into your digital camera. It uses 3D modeling and skin texture analysis to pick out a person as well as feature mapping.
I don't understand how you're arguing that they can't do something when the technology has been in use for 10 years. Not in development, in use. Go to the airports or the streets of London, you can see the damn cameras.
The entire PATRIOT Act won't be taken down, just the parts that are illegal. ie unauthorized surveillance.
12 or so per second. That's what, half a million over 24 hours? Can you give a link to a wiki or something talking about this magical software?Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
There is other magical software called google: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facial_recognition_systemQuote:
Originally Posted by drewmandan
RFID tracking will require the same warrants that tracking someone with other means do. You realize that your cell phone emits far stronger signals than any RFID chip right? They communicate with towers miles away, not 30 feet. Be in range of 3 scanners, and they can triangulate your position.
Oh, I just read that article, seems lighting is no concern because the cameras scan in IR and have IR illuminators.
I stand corrected. You should be worried.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
Yes, but as you pointed out earlier, the government isn't privy to private signals. I'd be more worried about RFIDs than cell phones because the government has a monopoly on the justice system, don't they?Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
Well, when you say "the government" you're treating it like a single entity.Quote:
Originally Posted by drewmandan
And yea, equal governing power amongst the people would work well.
Because, if everyone is cognizant, then you don't have stupid shit like Monarchies and Dictatorships happen.
RFIDs aren't issued by the government. Their immediate use is medical records and credit cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by drewmandan
Most of the big names in medical technology are in The Netherlands. If the US government wants their secrets they'll have to invade The Netherlands but they don't have any oil.
Credit Card companies are multinational and can keep their secrets safe from the government. The government can't ask a credit card company for your credit information without a permit, they won't be able to get your RFID information either.
For the last time, I am referring to the New York State "Enhanced" Driver's Licenses and similar IDs.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
Did you not see my "then don't get one and shut the fuck up" remark? Those are designed to make border crossing faster. If you don't go back and forth to Canada very often then just don't get one. They wouldn't be worth it to you anyway, they cost 30 dollar extra.
They don't need to track your every move. The majority of the population already acts like sheep. Stop worrying, they don't need to implement a totalitarian state, so they wont. They already have control, and they wont lose it without a revolution, which, unfortunately, doesn't look like its going to happen here any time soon. And even oppressive regimes have been overthrown in history.
Have any of you fucktards heard of mobile phones?Quote:
Originally Posted by drewmandan
Your position is being tracked in real-time, right now, as we speak.
Think a little before you decide you have something new to say.
Yeah and then you can go out into the wild and manage every aspect of your life that the government previously did for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by guerilla
Like money.
Which you trade for:
food
shelter
transport
electricity
security
Basically everything you have in life is provided by the government, and the best "fuck you" to it would be to fuck off into the wild and not be bothered by those control your life so.
Even if cell phone companies were so inclined as to keep tabs on people, they are not answerable to the government, and hence it cannot be assumed that the government has those records, if they exist. Also, not being tracked by a cell phone is as easy as turning it off, whereas not being tracked by an RFID in your driver's license would require you to not have ID when you move about.Quote:
Originally Posted by adam has a dream
As far as I'm aware all newly issued German IDs, drivers licenses and passports already have RFIDs with all of them having the facial profile and the latter one having fingerprints saved on them. It's quite obvious that the point of saving facial profiles is computer facial recognition on public CCTV, this is no secret. Surely if there's a good reason, they can get access to any privately owned tape as well.
Now just recently they started issuing personal ID numbers ("tax identification numbers") that are valid from birth until death (Unlike the ID cards, their number changes whenever you get a new one). So now we are already 100% at the point where every newborn gets assigned a permanent number and a permanent record in an electronic government-controlled database.
On top of that of course all telecommunications providers being required to record communication data for 6 months doesn't sit too well with me. This is not yet content, but only IP addresses (not the connections, just which one your PC used) and inbound and outbound email addresses and telephone numbers.
Though for mobile phones they also have to save what is essentially the location of the phone (the connected radio cell) at the time of usage. (which is a standard function as has been pointed out by adam has a dream.) Of course also the internal ID numbers of all devices used.
Now my problem with all of this isn't that I think that right now we are living in a tyrannical police state dictatorship, because we're not. We do have plenty of rights left that previous generations often didn't have. The police don't actually use any of this on the average citizen. Right now they're mostly using this for the real bad guys. The problem is that, should at any point in time any crazy dickhead get to power and think it would be a good idea to tighten up security even more and install some more cameras, more regulations, maybe suppress a bit of dissent, become a little more corrupt, cut off some more free speech, there's nothing you can do, because the state will eventually strive to be all-powerful and all-controlling.
Now I'm not saying that anybody would want to do anything about that anyway... since we got iPhones and HD BluRay porn and MTV and football why should anybody give a shit?
We simply shouldn't gamble the chances of the government becoming more oppressive instead of less. You can't just go ahead and say "Yeah, with some time it would probably be possible to create an oppressive government with full surveillance but who the fuck would want to do that anyway? Aren't politicians in it because they like society so much?" No, you should open a fucking history book and look at what kind of crazy shit people pull off if you give them some power and a good chance. This is no fun and games, this was just LAST century... well, and the century before that as well. It's still essentially happening in some countries right now. Crazy peope getting to power and trying to enslave society is no figment of George Orwell's imagination. This is essentially why he wrote 1984 in the first place.
The problem isn't so much that at this point at time I think the government has a sincere interest in any of my business, because I'm just a regular guy.
The problem is simply that one door opens the next opens the next opens the next. EVEN IF right now politicians only want this stuff to protect us against EVIL EVIL terrorists, eventually it opens up possibilities to be abused. And then I'd rather just not have it, even if the politician thinks it will eventually save my life. I don't care.
Some people need to stop being so serious... :P
This coming from the guy that thinks the universe is the Matrix...Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclic13
im one to edge on the side of caution and do not play into paranoia but the government has full access to mobile and landline phones http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agN7S5Siy1oQuote:
Originally Posted by drewmandan
(by the EFF and so funny)
They actually have a direct pipeline to AT&T. One of the largest in the world!
This is stemming from the argument that the government could set up rfid scanners everywhere. It is much more feasible to set up a network of cell-phone trackers as they have a much greater range.Quote:
Originally Posted by drewmandan
Line your wallet with tin foil and it becomes a faraday cage.
Also, who in their right mind would turn off their phone just to stop themselves being tracked? That would make the phone useless.
Really, who in their right mind would worry about being tracked by either their phone or their ID?
Bingo!Quote:
Originally Posted by Serkat
The government doesn't know who you are, let alone being bothered to track you.
Yeah, until they declare you an "enemy combatant". But don't worry, I'm sure you have nothing to hide.Quote:
Originally Posted by adam has a dream
That's true. If you don't want to get tracked with your RFID (then why did you get one?) then any metal can block them. It's a simple law of physics, inside an enclosed metal object, net charge = 0. That will work with your phone too.Quote:
Originally Posted by adam has a dream
Aren't cell phone sim cards likened unto RFID chips? You can be traced anywhere if you have your cell phone with you.
In a way this is a valid point. Just recently I heard of another (German) Islam-critical website getting heat from the cops. Now whether I agree with a Christian douche bashing Islam when his religion is just as nonsensical is beyond my point. Essentially he got called by the cops and ordered to take out anything critical of Islam, which he refused to do, citing freedom of speech. Then he got a letter, ordering him to take it off or risk a trial (for risking inciting violence or some shit).Quote:
Originally Posted by drewmandan
My whole point is that surely the government doesn't care about you if you're a well-behaved citizen, but it does start to care if you're trying to make use of those constitutional rights that they think are mostly there for decoration, but quite nutty when put into effect (like actually having free speech - who the fuck would want that except some freedom-loving third party nutjobs?).
Also, this particular example was kind of bad because he had a domain with standard registration so of course everybody can find out who runs the site, it wasn't a privacy issue, just an issue of the government getting all worked about something minor.
I'm just a bit worried that it is more and more presumed that every citizen is a potential criminal. That's bullshit. Take my fingerprints and facial profile for getting a ID card or passport? I mean, WTF? Already putting up fucking retina scanners at some international airports? That's a bit worrying. They basically assume that everyone could be carrying a giant nuke in their pants. They should be assuming that people are innocent until proven guilty, like it says in the fucking UN human rights charter. Not only when I'm already in a trial, BEFORE that. When there's no evidence beyond reasonable doubt to assume I'm a potential criminal, then there shall be no infringing of my rights. Is that so hard to understand? Apparently so.
yeah, that's what happened in the latest harold and kumar movie.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff777