Thread: guns

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

The more laws there are, the less law abiding the people will be

The more controls there are, the less people will control themselves

The fewer guns there are, the more people will need them

That just isn't true. Have you ever been to Europe? People don't need guns at all. If I lived in America, I might have to buy a gun, because every fucking criminal has one, and because your crime-rates are so high.

Anyhow, just reflect on how wrong that statement of you was. Look up the statistics. You can look up how many attempts there were made to legalize guns in European countries. How can you live with yourself if you make giant mistakes in even such simple claims that you could avoid if you look up some statistics?

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Originally Posted by Alextanium

And if yours became (moreso) tyrannical, do you really think a nation of mostly poverty stricken illiterates with handguns and rifles is going to be a match for a military that has over 45% of the worlds defense spending being pumped into it?

Haha, awesome. That is pretty ironic in a way.

Originally Posted by Neruo

That just isn't true. Have you ever been to Europe? People don't need guns at all. If I lived in America, I might have to buy a gun, because every fucking criminal has one, and because your crime-rates are so high.

Yeah, those Europeans didn't need guns at all from 1932-1945. It's not like a socialist dictator tried to take over or anything.

The US will have their chance as well, even if they're historically 70 years out of phase with Europe.

Originally Posted by drewmandan

Yeah, those Europeans didn't need guns at all from 1932-1945. It's not like a socialist dictator tried to take over or anything.

lol. I hope you do know the difference between national-socialism as in the NSDAP, and 'real' socialism, especially in it's 21th century quite-liberal incarnations. Socialism can be silly, but certainly isn't comparable to Nazis. (Also, Stalin wasn't a socialist.) Actually, I might be wrong on this, but it is simply not the case that Hitler is referred to a socialist by historians today.

Okay, now once we got the meaning of that 'complicated' and very 'dirty' and 'scary' word clear.

I highly doubt that the European citizens would have enough guns to really change the outcome of the war. Also, the second world was was one of the last war that was based on the, then already expired, conviction that a great nation needs and benefits of more land for resources and as lebensraum. As a lot of European countries found out, great recourse and slave sources such as Surinam and The Antilles for the Netherlands, in the 20th century became an economical burden.

Simply said, if someone wanted to become economically more powerful or even 'defeat' Europe, they would never march in with armies. Occupation and conquering countries simply has no benefit in the 21th century (a few oil-rich countries aside). Basically, Europe will get nuked into oblivion far before being invaded. Thus, citizens carrying guns do not help at all against fascist forces in the 21th century. At least not as far as Europe is concerned.

Originally Posted by Neruo

lol. I hope you do know the difference between national-socialism as in the NSDAP, and 'real' socialism, especially in it's 21th century quite-liberal incarnations. Socialism can be silly, but certainly isn't comparable to Nazis. (Also, Stalin wasn't a socialist.) Actually, I might be wrong on this, but it is simply not the case that Hitler is referred to a socialist by historians today.

Socialism is socialism.

Originally Posted by Neruo

I highly doubt that the European citizens would have enough guns to really change the outcome of the war.

I guess you've never heard of the Maquis?

Originally Posted by Neruo

Also, the second world was was one of the last war that was based on the, then already expired, conviction that a great nation needs and benefits of more land for resources and as lebensraum. As a lot of European countries found out, great recourse and slave sources such as Surinam and The Antilles for the Netherlands, in the 20th century became an economical burden.

Simply said, if someone wanted to become economically more powerful or even 'defeat' Europe, they would never march in with armies. Occupation and conquering countries simply has no benefit in the 21th century (a few oil-rich countries aside). Basically, Europe will get nuked into oblivion far before being invaded. Thus, citizens carrying guns do not help at all against fascist forces in the 21th century. At least not as far as Europe is concerned.

I'm not talking about outside invasion; I'm talking about the existing governments becoming even more tyrannical than they are now.

Originally Posted by drewmandan

Socialism is socialism.

Then you are an idiot. The NSDAP is about as far from 21th century socialistic parties as possible.

I guess you've never heard of the Maquis?

The French army probably was properly armed in all the wars against England too. They lost all or almost all of them. I don't think a few more armed peasants would help against the Wehrmacht.

I'm not talking about outside invasion; I'm talking about the existing governments becoming even more tyrannical than they are now.

Well, then you shouldn't have mentioned Hitler's invasion.

As far as tyrannical governments, it's probably America, not Europe, that is growing close to that. As I told before in this topic, armed populous doesn't prevent a government tyranny in the 21th century.

Some people need to watch V for Vendetta.

Originally Posted by Neruo

That just isn't true. Have you ever been to Europe? People don't need guns at all. If I lived in America, I might have to buy a gun, because every fucking criminal has one, and because your crime-rates are so high.

Anyhow, just reflect on how wrong that statement of you was. Look up the statistics. You can look up how many attempts there were made to legalize guns in European countries. How can you live with yourself if you make giant mistakes in even such simple claims that you could avoid if you look up some statistics?

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Haha, awesome. That is pretty ironic in a way.

YEs, do look at the statistics....


The media blows firearm violence way out of proprtion in the US. The fact of the matter is that violence in TH US is not a matter of firearms being available, it is a matter of the failure of the system of justice to enact adequate punishments for the crimes committed.
Right nowm the law abiding gun owner has more to fear from law enforcement than the criminal that illegally owns and uses the gun in a crime.

Everything is a matter of perspective.

Its difficult to make an adequate judgement of the going ons in another persons back yard, unless you live in that back yard yourself.

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

YEs, do look at the statistics....


The media blows firearm violence way out of proprtion in the US. The fact of the matter is that violence in TH US is not a matter of firearms being available, it is a matter of the failure of the system of justice to enact adequate punishments for the crimes committed.
Right nowm the law abiding gun owner has more to fear from law enforcement than the criminal that illegally owns and uses the gun in a crime.

Everything is a matter of perspective.

Its difficult to make an adequate judgement of the going ons in another persons back yard, unless you live in that back yard yourself.

Map is probably murder rate per 100.000 citizens. Note how the Netherlands, pretty much as gun-free as possible, is a nice, light-blue. While America is a pretty hard gun-to-the-face blue.

Note how the only countries that have it worse or equal are shit-poor crap countries. Other crime-rates are shit-hilariously high in America too. Despite the fact that America has about a three times more people per citizen in prison than civilized countries.

Anyhow. Go get shot at a 7-11, silly hippy.

You should expand your awareness of the issue...


You are being quite naive

While the map is compelling, it is important to understand that guns are not the only possible explanation for these statistics.

Where I live (Vermont), we have the most lax gun laws in the country. One can go right into a store, buy a handgun, and conceal it. No permit required. You can walk right into any non-state building with it. Vermont has the second lowest crime rate in the nation. Again though, I must admit that there may be another reason besides gun laws for these statistics. Things are just not so simple to evaluate without controls.

It saddens me to see the way our latest generations are being raised. (In America) It is no fault of their own. I don't know if you can really call it anybody's fault. It is a product of the environment that people grow up in. They are not brought up to understand fire arms in the same light as was the case generations ago. Much less respect them. Guns are not part of families heritages any more. A pastime? Respect for, or an understanding of firearms is not taught down from generation to generation any more. They are seen as weapons of violence and destruction in video games, television and in the news. This in turn will eventually lead to the demise of our second amendment.

I don't see how anybody who was raised with firearms and the many traditions that accompany them could truly ever convey what it is like to have honor for our gun rights. Not to a person that has never been around guns.

Originally Posted by Howie

It saddens me to see the way our latest generations are being raised. (In America) It is no fault of their own. I don't know if you can really call it anybody's fault. It is a product of the environment that people grow up in. They are not brought up to understand fire arms in the same light as was the case generations ago. Much less respect them. Guns are not part of families heritages any more. A pastime? Respect for, or an understanding of firearms is not taught down from generation to generation any more. They are seen as weapons of violence and destruction in video games, television and in the news. This in turn will eventually lead to the demise of our second amendment.

I don't see how anybody who was raised with firearms and the many traditions that accompany them could truly ever convey what it is like to have honor for our gun rights. Not to a person that has never been around guns.

I'll tell you whats interesting...

My dad relates stories of his childhood growing up in the 1940's and 50's. Then it was common place for kids to bring their guns to school on the bus and have them in their school lockers to go hunting with right after school.

People saw teenagers walking down the streets of the midwest and never gave it a second thought.

The guns were not the problem then, and nor are they now.

Howie: Not to a person that has never been around guns.

This is an important point I think. I cannot understand why people hate guns so much. Some argue safety. Comparatively, they are not dangerous. First you must load the cartridges into the magazine, then insert the magazine, then you have to release the safety, then pull the charge handle, then aim, fire, and finally you actually have to hit something, and that something must be a person. Even after all that, the chances of a fatal wound are slim. This is apparently all by accident. I will not believe this is a common occurence. Such is ridiculous. Irresponsible people will always kill, especially in cars. You don't hear about other things much because of the anti-gun agenda.

Some argue crime, and that is a better argument by far, though I still see it as being obsessive considering our population and the fact that more people die from other things that we should not need than guns. In the end though, I know that guns give me the ability to choose my fate, and to protect those who need protection. Regardless of all else, this is my motivation.

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

You should expand your awareness of the issue...


You are being quite naive

Sure.

Great response to my statistics and arguments, by the way. You really made yourself look like a good informed well-educated person.