Thread: Hip-hop and Homophobia

Great post, I see where your coming from... it is a shame and should not be tollerated... But it also necessary to reconize what way the rapper (or whoever) is using the word, because a lot of the time they are not talking about actuall homosexuals and they don't mean it in that way...

Fortunatly the is plenty of rap and reggae out there with good lyrics, so we just have to try to stay away from the crap..

Rap culture is fueled by machismo. Anyone who spends most of their day thinking about watching that booty shake and gang wars is bound to hate anything that threatens their masculinity.

Rap is the music of the stupid. The stupid don't like things that are different from themselves, ergo, they hate gays.

Right obviously it's the music of the stupid because you don't like it, therefore how could it possibly have any value to anyone else?

Even better, it's obviously music for stupid people because it's made by black people and they're only good at playing basketball and selling drugs and have no value in society. Rap music reflects the deep design flaws in black society and their genetics in general proving their only proper place in a society is as slaves.

Listen to Immortal Technique, he's hella good.

But I agree with plg6067, it's not against gays, it's mostly just a general insult against people. When trying to rhyme, any insult will do and gay and faggot rhyme a lot more often then others. I've said faggot while free styling. I actually say faggot all the time. I'm not justifying it, but out of habit when I'm pissed it slips out of my mouth with no intention of hating gay people or offending anyone. Again, I'm not saying it's okay just because I do, I'm just saying our culture still uses words like gay and faggot in a generally insulting manner. The rappers are just using the vocabulary that's around them, like we all do. It takes a conscious effort to change your vernacular, most people don't feel the need because they don't see the impact of associations nor the consequences they have on our society. I mean come on, black people still call themselves niggers, why would they stop using the word faggot? They do it to claim power over a word that used to have power over them. Why don't you try taking the power back for the word faggot?

My point is, rap music is good. You are wrong, Ninja, just... look I'll try to be friends with you, okay? ...Nope can't do it. Sorry, you're just too, too... ugh.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

Rap is the music of the stupid. The stupid don't like things that are different from themselves, ergo, they hate gays.

Really?

Yeah, ninja, way to close some doors. Taste of music (even lack of taste or lack of knowledge like you've just demonstrated) is a reflection of personality - be a little more open minded. Rap isn't just 50 Cent and Lil Wayne.

Originally Posted by Omnius Deus

Right obviously it's the music of the stupid because you don't like it, therefore how could it possibly have any value to anyone else?

Even better, it's obviously music for stupid people because it's made by black people and they're only good at playing basketball and selling drugs and have no value in society. Rap music reflects the deep design flaws in black society and their genetics in general proving their only proper place in a society is as slaves.

Listen to Immortal Technique, he's hella good.

But I agree with plg6067, it's not against gays, it's mostly just a general insult against people. When trying to rhyme, any insult will do and gay and faggot rhyme a lot more often then others. I've said faggot while free styling. I actually say faggot all the time. I'm not justifying it, but out of habit when I'm pissed it slips out of my mouth with no intention of hating gay people or offending anyone. Again, I'm not saying it's okay just because I do, I'm just saying our culture still uses words like gay and faggot in a generally insulting manner. The rappers are just using the vocabulary that's around them, like we all do. It takes a conscious effort to change your vernacular, most people don't feel the need because they don't see the impact of associations nor the consequences they have on our society. I mean come on, black people still call themselves niggers, why would they stop using the word faggot? They do it to claim power over a word that used to have power over them. Why don't you try taking the power back for the word faggot?

My point is, rap music is good. You are wrong, Ninja, just... look I'll try to be friends with you, okay? ...Nope can't do it. Sorry, you're just too, too... ugh.

Rap is the music of the stupid because it only talks about stupid things, and if it ever dares to move to a topic that isn't completely retarded it still fails horribly because they use words like...Oh what was it, faggot and gay to demean people, and fuck, and whore, and slut, and bitch, and superman dat hoe...and...various other crimes against the English language. Do not get me wrong, I don't mind a few curse words, or playing with English every now and then, but an entire song, and every time? The saddest part is if they remove either of these two things which comprise the greater percentage of popular rap songs, it loses its draw to the majority of its crowd, which is why it is the music of the stupid.

As for "taking the word back" of faggot...That system is ridiculous and the only reason I don't find it to be a completely foolish tactic for black people to do is because it didn't start out as a word to demean people, but instead to describe them as what they were, black and/or a slave.

But if I had to pick a reason for why "taking the word faggot back" fails the most it would be because, unlike black people, the word faggot isn't just used to demean the people it is referring to. While every Niggar insult that makes sense must be directed towards a black person, insults against gay people are more often directed at straight people, or people who they actually believe are straight but may or may not be straight. So in order for the "take it back" mentality to work, we would have to somehow figure out a way to make sure people only call gay people faggots.

The strategy of "taking the word back" is not as good as the technique of not caring in the first place. If the word means nothing to the person you're using it against, then the purpose the person has fails, and they can see it, and it will make them no longer wish to use that word because it doesn't incite the response that they were trying to get from you. Which is why the "take it back" mentality fails even for the word niggar. You see, the power a non-black person has when calling a black person a niggar still exists. "It is our word you can't use it." Being told that will not stop me from using it if I wanted to. In fact they will be even more angry because they think "that is my word."


As for the part in bold. Every insult that involves calling a person a faggot or gay in a negative way is an insult against all gay people because it is insulting the person by stating that they are gay, which implies that being gay is bad enough to be used as an insult.

Back to the rap music topic. I have heard from a variety of sources that the rap music from the past was actually much better than modern day music, which I don't know if it is because of the fact that you are more drawn to what you first heard (as in nothing new ever feels as good as it did when it was actually new to you), or if it is because it was actually good.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

Rap is the music of the stupid. The stupid don't like things that are different from themselves, ergo, they hate gays.

That's a very unintelligent or "stupid" thing of you to say and frankly, I would have expected better from you ninja . There are many facets and messages in every genre of music.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Rap culture is fueled by machismo. Anyone who spends most of their day thinking about watching that booty shake and gang wars is bound to hate anything that threatens their masculinity.

Obviously you're closed minded about rap as well. "Gangsta rap" is different from regular rap. That which you pinpointed as "gang wars" is Gangsta rap. Not my cup of tea except for when I'm doing cardio workouts. Lupe Fiasco is a rapper who is quite famous but does not have "booty's shaking" in his videos nor does he talk about drugs and gangs. He tends to focus on life and the positive aspects of it. His goal is to ultimately get people to see that for themselves, through his music. While rap's universal negative connotation associated with it might be about drugs, gangs, and sex...that's not all of it. I like country music as well, within that genre lies different messages and facets to it...I don't like everyone's country music but only a few. Point in case.

Originally Posted by CoLd BlooDed

Yeah, ninja, way to close some doors. Taste of music (even lack of taste or lack of knowledge like you've just demonstrated) is a reflection of personality - be a little more open minded. Rap isn't just 50 Cent and Lil Wayne.

Exactly. I'm actually surprised Oneironaut hasn't put in his two cents yet. My music tastes range from Enigma and Enya to P. Diddy. It's all about what mood I'm in. If I'm going for a run...I blast P. Diddy on my iPod. If I'm relaxing in bed, I play some Enya. Nevertheless though...I'm still not all that surprised some people have such strong negative feelings about it. After all, BET (which I do not care for either) continues to propagate black stereotypes...and some black people wonder why some white people clinch their purse or grab their wallet as they pass by. Irregardless of this...I still would think you all would be a bit more open minded and would have realized these things for yourself instead of writing off an entire genre as "stupid" and "idiotic".

--

Seriously...could we have any more closed minded people in here express their opinion without projecting entirely too much feeble minded biased bullshit into it?

I agree with some of what's been said, but that's just a little too harsh sandform; I feel the need to add this.

EDIT:this ones better

Originally Posted by Jeff777

I still would think you all would be a bit more open minded and would have realized these things for yourself instead of writing off an entire genre as "stupid" and "idiotic".

I don't like any rap music, simply because if I'm going to listen to a person speak while music blairs louder than their words do, thus making the idea of actually hearing what they are saying impossible, I at least want the voice to sound like a song. Perhaps if their wasn't any music and it was simply words, in fact the practice of "flowing" has that advantage, I would enjoy it.


Meanwhile, it isn't that the entire genre is bad, it is just that any of the songs that make it to the "top" of the hits list is usually a horrible song, and it pains me to see all the little hip hop wannabees being succored into it. This means the majority of people who listen to songs enjoy listening to the crappier versions of rap more than the versions of rap that actually have some merit to them.

Originally Posted by stonedape

I agree with some of what's been said, but that's just a little too harsh sandform; I feel the need to add this.

EDIT:this ones better

Nice. Listen to this, this is my personal fav and also listen to it when I'm jogging.



And yes Gentlemen...the above "stupid" video is classified as rap -_-.

Originally Posted by Sandform

I don't like any rap music, simply because if I'm going to listen to a person speak while music blairs louder than their words do, thus making the idea of actually hearing what they are saying impossible, I at least want the voice to sound like a song. Perhaps if their wasn't any music and it was simply words, in fact the practice of "flowing" has that advantage, I would enjoy it.


Meanwhile, it isn't that the entire genre is bad, it is just that any of the songs that make it to the "top" of the hits list is usually a horrible song, and it pains me to see all the little hip hop wannabees being succored into it. This means the majority of people who listen to songs enjoy listening to the crappier versions of rap more than the versions of rap that actually have some merit to them.

True, more air time is being given to gangsta, sex, drugs and cars rap as opposed to messages that mean something. Thing is though, don't just write off all of rap as being loud, obnoxious blaring music. A lot of the horrible rap is which is why I stopped watching BET some 4 years ago because they primarily show the "ignorant" and "stereotypical" side of rap. However, there are prominent rappers who are changing the game by writing thought provoking and pause-worthy music. Let's flip this over to country music...I like Shania Twain's music and have her on my iPod as well. I have a strong distaste for that Taylor Swift girl's music. Since I do not like Taylor's music...do I make a severely ignorant statement and say "Country music is stupid"? No...I just weed out what I don't like and give other artists a chance to impress me by listening to what they have to say. And for me, that goes with every genre of music. I like country, rap (some of it), r & b, meditative, electronic, techno, heavy metal, death metal, gospel, pop and the list goes on and on. What I'm trying to say is...one shouldn't listen to a few artists and judge the entire genre based on their garbage songs. Let's apply that same context to skin color. If I met 3 Iranian guys and they all ripped me off and tried to haggle with me...I COULD walk away from those encounters and say "All Iranian people are cheap crooks". This context being applied from music to skin color illustrates perfectly how ridiculous "writing off anything based on few to none experiences" exudes ignorance in my opinion. Let's go back to music with the same context of "weed out the bad, listen to the good" in mind. THAT is how I pick and choose my music. If I had not applied those set of principles to music (and namely life) years ago, I wouldn't be so absorbed and fulfilled by a plethora of genres and songs which I found out I indeed...like.

I'm not saying that all rap sucks, although I really have never heard a rap song I enjoyed...

I'm saying that that majority of people rap music draws in aren't exactly the brightest crayons in the box.

And the majority of the music that makes it to the spot light so that it can be used to draw people in is just horrible, so you can see the correlation there.


The same applies to country music, I usually hate country songs, but I like a lot of them too. A boy named sue, I'm not as good as I once was, One more day, a whiskey lullaby, etc, I like them, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of the songs are just foolish.

The main demographic for rap music is either poor uneducated people who think that if they just keep flowing on the street someday they'll be big rap stars too, or young people who want to seem cool and are told rap is cool from the age of 5 so you wind up with this.

The main demographic for country music is country people who have faith in god and enjoy things like cart racing, hunting, and good old fashion values.



Let me make a point here. All rap music isn't stupid, nor are all people who enjoy rap music. It is easier to sell things to stupid people, so that is one of the music companies targets. Stupid people and emotionally unstable people are the easiest people to market things to. I know that a lot of rich white kids are into rap, and not the better kind of rap. It is because they focused in on them when they were young (or stupid), and made them a part of their money vein.

But at the end of the day, if a rap song has no message or has a pointless message, I can't listen to it, there is no point. If a country song, or a pop song, or any other kind of song has no message, then at least if the voice is nice I can just get into the sound rather than the message. 99 luft balons.

This mentality is why this ~~~

Was popular until they translated it into
This...



When people find out what it actually meant they got over it. This was really just to stress the point of why I have a preference for non-rap songs.

Jedi Mind Tricks rap about metaphysics. I feel that that is pretty fucking awesome. They have some of the best lyrics I have heard of any style of music, but I'm more of an instrumental person myself. I was just trying to give an example of how any art can be art or it can be garbage, it depends on the artist. But I agree with a lot of what you've said Sandform.

Originally Posted by stonedape

Jedi Mind Tricks rap about metaphysics. I feel that that is pretty fucking awesome. They have some of the best lyrics I have heard of any style of music, but I'm more of an instrumental person myself. I was just trying to give an example of how any art can be art or it can be garbage, it depends on the artist. But I agree with a lot of what you've said Sandform.

Originally Posted by Jeff777

Obviously you're closed minded about rap as well. "Gangsta rap" is different from regular rap. That which you pinpointed as "gang wars" is Gangsta rap. Not my cup of tea except for when I'm doing cardio workouts. Lupe Fiasco is a rapper who is quite famous but does not have "booty's shaking" in his videos nor does he talk about drugs and gangs. He tends to focus on life and the positive aspects of it. His goal is to ultimately get people to see that for themselves, through his music. While rap's universal negative connotation associated with it might be about drugs, gangs, and sex...that's not all of it. I like country music as well, within that genre lies different messages and facets to it...I don't like everyone's country music but only a few. Point in case.

I said rap culture. Rap isn't music any more than "guitar" is music. It is a vocal style. Rap or hip hop culture is a cultural movement associated with machismo, or "a prominently exhibited or excessive masculinity. As an attitude, machismo ranges from a personal sense of virility to a more extreme male chauvinism."

M.C. Chris is a rapper, but he isn't associated with rap culture.

Originally Posted by Sandform

Rap is the music of the stupid because it only talks about stupid things, and if it ever dares to move to a topic that isn't completely retarded it still fails horribly because they use words like...Oh what was it, faggot and gay to demean people, and fuck, and whore, and slut, and bitch, and superman dat hoe...and...various other crimes against the English language. Do not get me wrong, I don't mind a few curse words, or playing with English every now and then, but an entire song, and every time? The saddest part is if they remove either of these two things which comprise the greater percentage of popular rap songs, it loses its draw to the majority of its crowd, which is why it is the music of the stupid.

You have to see it from the right perspective. If your ancestors were forced to learn a language against their will with a new, foreign culture imposed upon them, how much respect for that culture would you have?

And furthermore, Immortal Technique is a very popular rapper, and his lyrics have a point.

As for "taking the word back" of faggot...That system is ridiculous and the only reason I don't find it to be a completely foolish tactic for black people to do is because it didn't start out as a word to demean people, but instead to describe them as what they were, black and/or a slave.

But if I had to pick a reason for why "taking the word faggot back" fails the most it would be because, unlike black people, the word faggot isn't just used to demean the people it is referring to. While every Niggar insult that makes sense must be directed towards a black person, insults against gay people are more often directed at straight people, or people who they actually believe are straight but may or may not be straight. So in order for the "take it back" mentality to work, we would have to somehow figure out a way to make sure people only call gay people faggots.

Not so, during the 50s and 60s, even as late as the 70s, nigger was used to refer to something stupid, it was associated with the shittiest aspects of life in a general way. It would refer to a person with no values, no self respect. Not just a black person. It changed, it became politically incorrect and the next generation presumed it used to refer only to black people. The same could happen to the word faggot.

The strategy of "taking the word back" is not as good as the technique of not caring in the first place. If the word means nothing to the person you're using it against, then the purpose the person has fails, and they can see it, and it will make them no longer wish to use that word because it doesn't incite the response that they were trying to get from you. Which is why the "take it back" mentality fails even for the word niggar. You see, the power a non-black person has when calling a black person a niggar still exists. "It is our word you can't use it." Being told that will not stop me from using it if I wanted to. In fact they will be even more angry because they think "that is my word."

Again you don't understand the history of these words. They both transformed. They became broad insults, so people used them without meaning to be bigots themselves. They were just part of the vernacular like calling someone an asshole. The negative effect of these words is the association they carry. The fact that people used faggot to refer to something they didn't like created an association with gay people and all negative aspects of life, intentional or not.

As for the part in bold. Every insult that involves calling a person a faggot or gay in a negative way is an insult against all gay people because it is insulting the person by stating that they are gay, which implies that being gay is bad enough to be used as an insult.

So first you say you don't care, then you say when someone uses the word they're insulting all gay people. Which is it? Do you get offended when someone's car breaks down and they start ranting about how gay their car is? It's still an association, which is why I personally think that we need to change our vernacular as a society, but you said you gay people should respond in apathy. I don't see how that helps, because it'll still be used in the example I just described and many other similar examples. Rappers wills till use the word when words like "asshole" and "cunt" just don't rhyme. My point has remained the same, most people are not intending to directly insult a gay person when they use the word faggot, but they do. It's not like responding in apathy is going to make them think "Huh, I guess I didn't hurt his feelings after all so I give up."

Back to the rap music topic. I have heard from a variety of sources that the rap music from the past was actually much better than modern day music, which I don't know if it is because of the fact that you are more drawn to what you first heard (as in nothing new ever feels as good as it did when it was actually new to you), or if it is because it was actually good.

Hip hop from back in the day had no edge, it had no harmony that got your head bobbing. I'd say the music is better now. The lyrics are somewhat worse.

EDIT: And for the record, all the music that makes top ten lists sucks. All music, allllllll music. On rock and alternative stations, you get bands like Taking Back Sunday and Dashboard Confessional and other whiny emo bands with tangled harmonies and annoying repetition. Any real fan of any genre of music typically HATES the most popular songs of that genre.

Okay, most rap music is for the stupid. I don't say that because I personally hate it, it's because the majority of it glamorizes criminal activity. If being a pimp, hooker, drug dealer, murderer, gang member... is glamorized in any way, then it's written by and for stupid people. I know that there are also Will Smiths and P.Diddys (or whatever he calls himself now) out there too, but they aren't the majority.

And immediately saying I'm racist because I think rap is for stupid is quiet a big stretch. I've always loved Soul and Jazz music, which are primarily black music styles.

I have a black friend, therefore I'm not racist -_-

But seriously, the majority of ALL music sucks, at least the popular stuff. Seriously, when you watch MTV does a single song come on that you like? Popular rap sings about violence and disrespect and all sorts of socially devolving things, but at least it has a tempo you can get into. And besides, Britney Spears is still popular, and she's out there glamorizing being a crazy slut and being the centerpiece of a one-girl orgy. And that's not even the worst, at least she hires some good people to do the beats. These dime a dozen alternative bands that get on the radio sing all have the same unoriginal lyrics, horrible progression and just generally suck massive sweaty balls. I'm sorry, that was not meant to be an insult against gay people. But they're so gaaaaaaaaaay and I don't mean like they're feminine or whiny, I mean they just suck at music, and people like them. And they fucking suck at music... they just suck.

Being popular doesn't have anything to do with whether or not something is bad or not. Walmart sells more clothes than Saks, it doesn't make their clothes better. MTV can go fuck themselves.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

If being a pimp, hooker, drug dealer, murderer, gang member... is glamorized in any way, then it's written by and for stupid people.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. Thing is, though the subjects of pimps, drugs, sex etc. aren't unoriginal to mainstream rap...other genres of music intertwine these various seemingly crude subjects in their rhymes as well. Nickleback for instance...I love that fucking band. But they have a song called "Rockstar" which highlights the "perks" and "benefits" of being a rockstar...such as popping pills, cheap girls, not eating to stay skinny etc. If we are judging genres by lyrics and content alone, then the genre of rock (because of this song and more songs out there like it) is entirely stupid. Or as you said "mostly" stupid. I don't think most rap is stupid, I think most of the rap music that makes it to your ears is stupid. Don't think I'm completely oblivious to the vulgarity of rap music though. As I said in an earlier post...I stopped watching BET over 4 years ago because of this trending devolution of hip-hop. Like every genre...a weeding process is necessary to filter out what you like from that you don't.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

And immediately saying I'm racist because I think rap is for stupid is quiet a big stretch. I've always loved Soul and Jazz music, which are primarily black music styles.

If this bit was aimed at me, I do apologize...I don't recall calling you racist though. If you took my earlier posts as an implication that you were, once again I do apologize...that was not what I meant at all.

I don't understand how anyone could listen to rap in the first place, regaurdless of the lyrics. Any music where it's just someone singing terribly with headache music in the background is bound to fail. That shit is so annoying

#Thumpthumpthump# "FhhmnHmmzFmnhm" "Ahh-oooh"

>.<

Originally Posted by A Roxxor

Any music where it's just someone singing terribly with headache music in the background is bound to fail. That shit is so annoying

I take it you're not a fan of rock and/or metal music then.

No way. I love Rock and Metal. Hence I hate rap and Country.