Thread: Internet Piracy

Intellectual property is the one right that will seemingly be up for debate for the term of human existence. I can't see this being resolved...ever. On the one hand, people need to be rewarded for their works, but on the other, you can't expect to be able to deny a society its culture.

For me, I go on a case-by-case basis. For example, I almost never pay for music because musicians make more than enough money from concerts and merchandizing, and it doesn't take a whole lot of effort to write a song. Similarly, I usually pirate mediocre PC games, because a crappy game isn't worth $50. However, the games that are clearly superior do get my money. Same with movies; I will tend to pirate the cultural trash (like comedies) and pay for the cultural masterpieces (like epic movies that weren't shot over a weekend).

drewmandan pretty got the same views as me. I think most pirates have this view. Internet pirates anyway

drew's post is made of win!

I think copyright is a very important right and I support it a 100%. How anyone could believe that only because something can be copied it isn't something that has financial value is beyond me. We are evolved apes, not apes. Social reality isn't restricted to just the physical. I've never heard a good argument against it, only the same old "Well, I have a right to other people's IP, so if I don't have the money to buy it, I have to pirate it, there's no other option." Funny how people don't apply that to physical property. The only reason piracy is so popular is because the resulting financial damage is indirect and you don't get caught.

It seems to be very hard to comprehend that financial damage can be dealt in invisible rather than visible ways.

"Piracy is not theft" is the stupidest baloney dumb shit I've ever heard. That's like saying "Murder isn't child pornography" or "Forgery isn't perjury".

Originally Posted by Serkat

I think copyright is a very important right and I support it a 100%. How anyone could believe that only because something can be copied it isn't something that has financial value is beyond me. We are evolved apes, not apes. Social reality isn't restricted to just the physical. I've never heard a good argument against it, only the same old "Well, I have a right to other people's IP, so if I don't have the money to buy it, I have to pirate it, there's no other option." Funny how people don't apply that to physical property. The only reason piracy is so popular is because you don't get caught.

Have you ever sung a song?

Originally Posted by drewmandan

Have you ever sung a song?

No, but I've written a couple (if that's what you're getting at). I can't really sing.

Originally Posted by Serkat

No, but I've written a couple (if that's what you're getting at). I can't really sing.

Have you ever, in your life, in school or wherever, sung, or tried to sing, or even hummed or repeated the lyrics, of a song?

Originally Posted by drewmandan

Intellectual property is the one right that will seemingly be up for debate for the term of human existence. I can't see this being resolved...ever. On the one hand, people need to be rewarded for their works, but on the other, you can't expect to be able to deny a society its culture.

For me, I go on a case-by-case basis. For example, I almost never pay for music because musicians make more than enough money from concerts and merchandizing, and it doesn't take a whole lot of effort to write a song. Similarly, I usually pirate mediocre PC games, because a crappy game isn't worth $50. However, the games that are clearly superior do get my money. Same with movies; I will tend to pirate the cultural trash (like comedies) and pay for the cultural masterpieces (like epic movies that weren't shot over a weekend).

How are you going to know if the game is crappy if you have never played it? or do you pirate it, then if it's worth the money actually pay for it. Obviously you can't know if a game is crappy without playing it, it's like those people who call eye candy games crappy because the eye candy and other games that are eye candy are always crappy because that is all the game is, you gotta play it to know if it's crappy or not. I normally buy my video games, right now i am buying a crap load through steam, hey, it's cheap! you can also get some mega mega deals.

Originally Posted by drewmandan

Have you ever, in your life, in school or wherever, sung, or tried to sing, or even hummed or repeated the lyrics, of a song?

Yes, I have performed copyrighted songs in private. That's not copyright infringement.

Originally Posted by drewmandan

On the one hand, people need to be rewarded for their works, but on the other, you can't expect to be able to deny a society its culture.

But does that reward have to take the form of a government-protected monopoly (especially one lasting 90 years)? I suspect not.
"Intellectual property" is not the only way the compensate artists for their work, and it is definitely not the fairest. Imagine if people could just vote for their favorite works, and the artist would receive a cut of the state "art budget" proportionally. Then we could get rid of all this DRM, and those annoying "piracy is stealing" ads, and best of all our privacy-invading anti-piracy laws.

It's something to think about.

Originally Posted by RedfishBluefish

Imagine if people could just vote for their favorite works, and the artist would receive a cut of the state "art budget" proportionally.

Which is exactly what copyright is. You vote with money. Unless you're talking about socialism I don't see why the state would need a budget for the arts. Why would I pay for someone else's enjoyment of art?

Well Serkat by buying an artists music you are essentially paying for their enjoyment. I think what the other person was getting at is that if a album etc. is popular by vote the artists would recieve payment from a fund or something of the likes.

I'm totally down for piracy. Not having money all the time to get things should not limit one from being able to enjoy something. Not the best view on things but it's mine. I pirate music because I'm not going to pay $15-20 for a CD that potentially only has 3 good songs on it that's ludicrous.

Also for a game I'm not gonna pay out the ass for a game come to find it's shitty. Or pay for a movie come to find once again it was a waste of money. Now if a game is really that good and I don't approve of the quality on a computer screen then I will go buy it. Or if it's a good game I might go buy it.

Otherwise though I'll prolly pirate it it's the easiest and cheapest method. It may be illegal, but so are a lot of things doesn't mean we will stop doing them.

Originally Posted by Brandon Heat

Well Serkat by buying an artists music you are essentially paying for their enjoyment.

Umm, what? I'm paying for the time, effort and material that went into the product, just as any other product.

I think what the other person was getting at is that if a album etc. is popular by vote the artists would recieve payment from a fund or something of the likes.

There's no need for that because they can get their money directly from the customer. This is more efficient.

I'm not going to pay $15-20 for a CD that potentially only has 3 good songs on it that's ludicrous.

You can preview almost any CD on the internet and in stores, and you can buy single songs of almost any CD.

Also for a game I'm not gonna pay out the ass for a game come to find it's shitty. Or pay for a movie come to find once again it was a waste of money.

When you buy something you can never know for sure beforehand if it will be what you hope it to be. That's not restricted to intellectual content. You can't look into the future. You can, however, play demos, read and watch reviews etc. etc.

Example: Only because you don't know beforehand whether you like a certain food product doesn't mean you have the right to taste it beforehand or steal it. You can ask for freebies, you can read reviews, try it at a friends house. There are plenty of ways to make up your mind but usually you wouldn't just steal it.

If you repeatedly pay money for things you don't like afterwards that's not the product's fault. It just means that you suck hard at decision making.

Originally Posted by drewmandan

For me, I go on a case-by-case basis. For example, I almost never pay for music because musicians make more than enough money from concerts and merchandizing, and it doesn't take a whole lot of effort to write a song.

Just a question, have you ever tried to make money being in a band?
In Melbourne, the whole music scene is ridiculously competitive, which makes it hard for anyone but the most talented or promoted bands to make a living from their music. Each section (shows, CDs, merch) contributes to an amount of the artist's pay, so by taking from one of those you're taking from the artist's pocket. For a band that hasn't quite "made it big", it's the difference between living off money made from being in the band or having to work another job to make a living.

That said, I'm not criticising your actions, only questioning your experiences. I've been playing in hobby bands for six years now, and just playing one or two shows a month takes up enough time to impact on my university studies and part-time job. Because of this, while I'm happy to pirate music, I'll always try to support local bands by buying their CDs as well as going to shows and getting merch.

As for writing music, trust me it takes a lot of effort. I think you may have forgotten the next few parts: rehearsing said music with band, playing it at shows and then recording it to perfection. Not an easy task at all, actually it's a full-time job.

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

How are you going to know if the game is crappy if you have never played it?

Demos, trailers, previews, reviews, metascores, etc. It's not perfect, but there are many ways to get a handle on a game's quality.

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

I normally buy my video games, right now i am buying a crap load through steam, hey, it's cheap! you can also get some mega mega deals.

And I support 100% the efforts of Valve. I have never pirated a game that was released on Steam.

Originally Posted by Serkat

Yes, I have performed copyrighted songs in private. That's not copyright infringement.

I enjoy copyrighted games in private. Neither is that.

Originally Posted by RedfishBluefish

But does that reward have to take the form of a government-protected monopoly (especially one lasting 90 years)? I suspect not.

I agree. The government has gone way overboard here. The copyright, whatever form it takes, should only have an effect for years, not decades, and yes, it should be independent of government.

Originally Posted by adam has a dream

Just a question, have you ever tried to make money being in a band?
In Melbourne, the whole music scene is ridiculously competitive, which makes it hard for anyone but the most talented or promoted bands to make a living from their music.

No. I've also never tried to be a professional athlete or Hollywood actor. Musicians know damn well what they're getting in to. Besides, if they don't make it, their music isn't being sold anyway. At least not in a big way. Selling CDs behind the garage doesn't count.

Originally Posted by adam has a dream

As for writing music, trust me it takes a lot of effort. I think you may have forgotten the next few parts: rehearsing said music with band, playing it at shows and then recording it to perfection. Not an easy task at all, actually it's a full-time job.

Tell that to Mozart.

Originally Posted by drewmandan

I enjoy copyrighted games in private. Neither is that.

Um... I hope you're joking. The difference between performing a copyrighted song and playing a copyrighted game is that for the game you need a copy of the original instance of the copyrighted material (the binaries and all that). You need to have copied that material from somewhere. For me to create a new instance of copyrighted music with my own instruments doesn't require a physical representation of the original musical track or even the notes.

Originally Posted by Serkat

Um... I hope you're joking. The difference between performing a copyrighted song and playing a copyrighted game is that for the game you need a copy of the original instance of the copyrighted material (the binaries and all that). You need to have copied that material from somewhere. For me to create a new instance of copyrighted music with my own instruments doesn't require a physical representation of the original musical track or even the notes.

Let me ask you this: Would it be ok to perform a copyrighted song by the Rolling Stones in front of a paying audience...with your own instruments?

Originally Posted by drewmandan

Intellectual property is the one right that will seemingly be up for debate for the term of human existence. I can't see this being resolved...ever. On the one hand, people need to be rewarded for their works, but on the other, you can't expect to be able to deny a society its culture.

For me, I go on a case-by-case basis. For example, I almost never pay for music because musicians make more than enough money from concerts and merchandizing, and it doesn't take a whole lot of effort to write a song. Similarly, I usually pirate mediocre PC games, because a crappy game isn't worth $50. However, the games that are clearly superior do get my money. Same with movies; I will tend to pirate the cultural trash (like comedies) and pay for the cultural masterpieces (like epic movies that weren't shot over a weekend).

I spend money on CDs on artists that have full cds worth listening to.

Quality products, Video Games, Music will sell if the content is their. If they have one song worth listening to it's gonna get pirated.

Originally Posted by drewmandan

Let me ask you this: Would it be ok to perform a copyrighted song by the Rolling Stones in front of a paying audience...with your own instruments?

No...

I'm a pretty big pirate myself, i know its not right
but most of the stuff i pirate i wouldn't pay for anyways

Movies,Anime

if i didn't download those i would just do something else, i personally dont get much enjoyment out of them anyways.
Music, tbh nowadays isn't worth much and the artist's who came before them already got the money they deserve for simply creating a song.
Most movies being made atm don't even deserve 5$ imo, and if they do happen to deserve the money i usually go see them in theaters.
last but not least i will not pay for something not in English, made by another country.

just my 2 cents on the matter

Originally Posted by Pride

last but not least i will not pay for something not in English, made by another country.

Out of respect?

- You buy a sandwich from a shop, and you bump into me further down the street.
- I have a device that can duplicate this sandwich at zero cost to anyone.
- I duplicate your sandwich. We now have a sandwich each.
- Have I stolen from the sandwich shop?

Originally Posted by Serkat

No...

Then you have contradicted yourself. You said that it's not copyright violation as long as you produce the copy with your own instruments.

I'd only say it's stealing when you would have bought that sandwich when not having the chance to copy it. In this case the sandwich maker is actually losing profit.
It's like when you see articles when gaming companies say they've lost millions because of piracy. But they're only basing that on the amount of downloads and not on how many people would actually buy the game if they didn't have the chance to download it.

Sadly there is no way to know who would and who wouldn't buy the thingie. So all are obviously bunched up into one category.
So yeah. When people yell at you for having the sandwich you'd never buy, is in my opinion, wrong-ish. The only thing they'd have the right to tell you is that you're cheating or that it's unfair for you to do so.

So piracy is only if you'd buy whatever you're pirating or in the case that you're using the pirated software for profit.