Thread: Fair and equal distribution of grades

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

If everyone is getting the same money, why have money at all?

Efficient medium of trade. We don't trade our grades. This is the key break down of your analogy, by the way.

LOl Sorry, but I don't think so.

I made straight A's growing up because I worked my butt off. I'm won't apologize or pick up slack for those who can't make the grades.

My advice: Get a tutor.

Not everyone who make good grades get into Ivy league schools (they don't exactly offer that many full ride scholarships or even partial).
Need I remind you of G.W. Bush. Ivy League. C student. Cheerleader.
Yeah....daddy's money and power goes a long way.

Originally Posted by Liberty

LOl Sorry, but I don't think so.

I made straight A's growing up because I worked my butt off. I'm won't apologize or pick up slack for those who can't make the grades.

I'm wouldn't expect you to.
Those damn non-achievers should just drop out and become mere humans! Amirite, amirite?

This story cropped up today, which solidifies my point really:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7966688.stm

The fundamental problem with Labour's grade inflation agenda is that it deludes. It sends a clear message to students that 'everybody is special and can do wonderful special jobs with your special talent and make a big special difference to the world'. The fact is that the vast majority of jobs are mediocre and dull, but more importantly, vital to the running of the country. Services, manufacturing, etcetera. There is only a very small niche where creative, intellectual people can reside; scientists and the like. Labour essentially is sending the message that to do anything else would make you a meaningless, boring person, with the result that the people who keep the country standing become completely dissatisfied.

There is hardly anybody left in the UK now in manufacture... it's all been outsourced. We've now got a country full of people either on benefits or just doing completely pointless jobs which will fall to pieces as soon as the depression hits.

Originally Posted by Invader

You were the one who started talking about Europe as a whole, not me. You can take your own advice before I'll consider taking it as well.

The value of the Euro, which is the standard currency of the European Union, is reflective of the overall wealth of, you guessed it, Europe.

With all due respect, I have no idea where you have gone in this conversation. The United States is the economic powerhouse of the world. No country in Europe comes close. I don't say that to compete with anybody. I want Europe to improve. If Europe kicks our asses economically, that is fine with me as long as it is because of their improvements and not our decline.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Efficient medium of trade. We don't trade our grades. This is the key break down of your analogy, by the way.

So what if we don't "trade" them? People still use them.

Besides, you are missing the point of the analogy. The point is that equal distribution of anything causes people to not work so hard for it. It is the unequal distribution, the requirement of earning, that inspires people to strive. Without it, people get extremely, and often completely, lazy.

The problem with good colleges are that they are capitalist. Smart people will always get turned away if there is a rich kid applying. Do you really think George W Bush would have gotten into Yale if his grandfather hadn't of be super rich? I can't imagine him getting more than a 900 on his SATs.

If you spread out grades too much, it lowers the value of a diploma, from any school. Kids are supposed to be able to flunk out.

I would stop studying so fast.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

The problem with good colleges are that they are capitalist. Smart people will always get turned away if there is a rich kid applying. Do you really think George W Bush would have gotten into Yale if his grandfather hadn't of be super rich? I can't imagine him getting more than a 900 on his SATs.

That does happen, but it is the exception and not the rule. There are zillions of multi-millionaires who would love to send their kids to Yale (for example), yet Yale remains a school for supergeniuses. Bush might have had strings pulled, but I am not sure. He is not an idiot, just a terrible speaker.

Prince Charles went to Oxford with a C and a D or something. Fucking appalling.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

So what if we don't "trade" them? People still use them.

Besides, you are missing the point of the analogy. The point is that equal distribution of anything causes people to not work so hard for it. It is the unequal distribution, the requirement of earning, that inspires people to strive. Without it, people get extremely, and often completely, lazy.

Thats your point, I know. The analogy doesn't work, however. Just look at all of the people who take classes outside of any grading system later on in life. Plenty of people learn for the sake of learning, and not to get some superficial grade. Some people don't want to learn, and only want a grade. Those people will not prosper in a gradeless society but that doesn't mean that no one would.

A monetary system still works with equal distribution as well. If everyone gets the same amount for the same time spent working, people will still have a use for an efficient medium of trade. Everyone would still have a choice of what material goods and services they want to get for their time/money.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Thats your point, I know. The analogy doesn't work, however. Just look at all of the people who take classes outside of any grading system later on in life. Plenty of people learn for the sake of learning, and not to get some superficial grade. Some people don't want to learn, and only want a grade. Those people will not prosper in a gradeless society but that doesn't mean that no one would.

The majority of people would not try hard at all in school if they were not rewarded and punished by grades.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

A monetary system still works with equal distribution as well. If everyone gets the same amount for the same time spent working, people will still have a use for an efficient medium of trade. Everyone would still have a choice of what material goods and services they want to get for their time/money.

Why would the majority of people try hard at work if nobody in the system has financial incentives for extra good work?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

The majority of people would not try hard at all in school if they were not rewarded and punished by grades.

Just because you say so, doesn't make it true. The majority of people would probably slack at first, especially with an abrupt change. People would do poorly and not learn anything. Then after a few years in a boring menial labor job, they might decide to go back to school and learn new skills.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Why would the majority of people try hard at work if nobody in the system has financial incentives for extra good work?

For the same reason that many (if not most) people have hobbies that they work hard at. Sure, not a lot of people are going to want to do hard boring work, but these days automation is really up to the point that most of those jobs can be eliminated anyway. All that is really left is all of those jobs that don't actually need someone to excel at, they just need someone to do them. If its a choice between trudging through a job without putting much thought or caring into it and not having a job at all (and no pay either) I think you'll find that those people who don't qualify for anything else will be more than happy to fill those positions.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Just because you say so, doesn't make it true. The majority of people would probably slack at first, especially with an abrupt change. People would do poorly and not learn anything. Then after a few years in a boring menial labor job, they might decide to go back to school and learn new skills.

When they are grown up and made suck grades all the way through school? It's a little hard to put the genie back in the bottle at that point. Only the extremely determined ever make that happen.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

For the same reason that many (if not most) people have hobbies that they work hard at. Sure, not a lot of people are going to want to do hard boring work, but these days automation is really up to the point that most of those jobs can be eliminated anyway. All that is really left is all of those jobs that don't actually need someone to excel at, they just need someone to do them. If its a choice between trudging through a job without putting much thought or caring into it and not having a job at all (and no pay either) I think you'll find that those people who don't qualify for anything else will be more than happy to fill those positions.

That is a recipe for a very half ass work force.

The grading system must be abolished before the school system can work.

Grades only measure how much of a drone you are willing to be.

Why is it that I got an 106 on my last history test but I am failing the class? Oh, thats right, the grading system is bullshit and doesn't measure what you have learned.

EVERYONE has forgotten that schools are for education, not for ego boosts because you feel like you have a higher social status from filling out some worksheets while you could have be expanding your mind.

I learn 10 times what I do at home by reading than I learn at school.

Not only that, but about 50% of the work we do at school is filling out quizzes or tests for a grade, NOT learning.

The grading system is a system of inefficiency perpetuated by self-righteous egotistical losers. It's just breaks kids in for capitalism and control...

Sharing grades like suggested in the original post ironically would be a step in the right direction.

By the way some of the biggest idiots I have met have all As. It doesnt mean anything.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

When they are grown up and made suck grades all the way through school? It's a little hard to put the genie back in the bottle at that point. Only the extremely determined ever make that happen.

No, actually we were talking about a gradeless system, remember? There would be no obstacle to returning to school in this situation. We could even include a voluntary drop out system at age 16 for people who think school is not for them with the option to return for the final 2 years at any point that they decide they still want to learn. This would give them plenty of time in the free school system to learn the things they need to in order to continue their education in college if they want to do it at that point.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

That is a recipe for a very half ass work force.

You've failed to offer any evidence that suggests that this is true. Simply asserting your beliefs is not going to convince me.

Originally Posted by plg6067

Why is it that I got an 106 on my last history test but I am failing the class? Oh, thats right, the grading system is bullshit and doesn't measure what you have learned.

I would suggest that this is because you are inconsistent and do not apply yourself.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

No, actually we were talking about a gradeless system, remember? There would be no obstacle to returning to school in this situation. We could even include a voluntary drop out system at age 16 for people who think school is not for them with the option to return for the final 2 years at any point that they decide they still want to learn. This would give them plenty of time in the free school system to learn the things they need to in order to continue their education in college if they want to do it at that point.

You didn't say your hypothetical was within my hypothetical. With your hypoothetical within mine, the people would not return to school, just like they do not in the actual system. Does anybody who went to a sorry school these days pass and then go back to school just because their education sucks? Pretty much never. They just do what they can with the grades they were given. If they take more classes, it is because they are required.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

You've failed to offer any evidence that suggests that this is true. Simply asserting your beliefs is not going to convince me.

I said that there is no reliable incentive for hard work. If you think there is one, tell me about it. Effort is always the result of incentive. Without incentive, the system is extremely weak.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

You didn't say your hypothetical was within my hypothetical. With your hypoothetical within mine, the people would not return to school, just like they do not in the actual system. Does anybody who went to a sorry school these days pass and then go back to school just because their education sucks? Pretty much never. They just do what they can with the grades they were given. If they take more classes, it is because they are required.

What do you think people would do if no school was required, but it was all free? What would you do? I know a lot of people who have taken classes for the shear enjoyment of what they are learning, and I am among them. You are also ignoring the fact that job placement would still require actual knowledge. If someone has a job that they don't like and they want one that is more enjoyable, they will go back to school to get the knowledge that would allow them to get that more enjoyable job. I guess you could say that this would then be a 'requirement', but they aren't actually being forced to do it, they just have to if they want to enjoy their time more.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I said that there is no reliable incentive for hard work. If you think there is one, tell me about it. Effort is always the result of incentive. Without incentive, the system is extremely weak.

Similar to my questions regarding schooling, what would you do if no one had to work at all? Would you sit around watching tv or would you try to use your time productively? Believe it or not, there are many people who have jobs that they enjoy doing, and that they would still enjoy doing even if money was completely unnecessary. For instance, I really enjoy making masks and I do it for the enjoyment of it. Because we live in a capitalist society, I plan on exploiting my efforts for monetary gain, but I would continue to do it still if money became obsolete. There are people who enjoy designing and constructing buildings, gardening, researching, and any other necessary societal function you might be able to imagine. Once production type jobs are made obsolete through automation, there won't really be a need for anyone to commit themselves to labor that they do not enjoy.

Even if all unenjoyable jobs can't be eliminated, in a society that pays everyone equally, the incentive to do your job up to expectations will simply be having the opportunity to do the job at all. If someone is slacking then they are replaced by someone who will do it right, and they won't get paid at all. The incentive to progress and get better will be the opportunity to do a more enjoyable job.

I think at least one major point that we aren't seeing eye to eye on is how this system might be applied. I would never argue that we should take our current system but remove the possibility for capital gain from it because that is the very foundation of the system. I agree that a new system would need to be built around the idea of equal distribution of wealth, I am only arguing that such a system is not an impossibility.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

I would suggest that this is because you are inconsistent and do not apply yourself.

I am consistent on my tests. I choose not to do the other work because I could use my time more wisely.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

What do you think people would do if no school was required, but it was all free? What would you do? I know a lot of people who have taken classes for the shear enjoyment of what they are learning, and I am among them. You are also ignoring the fact that job placement would still require actual knowledge. If someone has a job that they don't like and they want one that is more enjoyable, they will go back to school to get the knowledge that would allow them to get that more enjoyable job. I guess you could say that this would then be a 'requirement', but they aren't actually being forced to do it, they just have to if they want to enjoy their time more.

What percentage of kids think like that? About 2%?

The knowledge required for job placement is based on degrees and grades. This part of the conversation is off topic, though. The point is that the average pre-distribution grade will be much lower if grades are equally distributed.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Similar to my questions regarding schooling, what would you do if no one had to work at all? Would you sit around watching tv or would you try to use your time productively? Believe it or not, there are many people who have jobs that they enjoy doing, and that they would still enjoy doing even if money was completely unnecessary. For instance, I really enjoy making masks and I do it for the enjoyment of it. Because we live in a capitalist society, I plan on exploiting my efforts for monetary gain, but I would continue to do it still if money became obsolete. There are people who enjoy designing and constructing buildings, gardening, researching, and any other necessary societal function you might be able to imagine. Once production type jobs are made obsolete through automation, there won't really be a need for anyone to commit themselves to labor that they do not enjoy.

Even if all unenjoyable jobs can't be eliminated, in a society that pays everyone equally, the incentive to do your job up to expectations will simply be having the opportunity to do the job at all. If someone is slacking then they are replaced by someone who will do it right, and they won't get paid at all. The incentive to progress and get better will be the opportunity to do a more enjoyable job.

I think at least one major point that we aren't seeing eye to eye on is how this system might be applied. I would never argue that we should take our current system but remove the possibility for capital gain from it because that is the very foundation of the system. I agree that a new system would need to be built around the idea of equal distribution of wealth, I am only arguing that such a system is not an impossibility.

The vast majority of people do not think like that. They just want to go home after they put in pay check hours. It is not common for people to like their jobs so much they would be doing them even without a paycheck. It is a very rare mentality.

Whelp, I'm done with this conversation until you either present facts that support your opinions or stop presenting your opinions as if they are facts themselves.

Stumped, huh? I feel for you.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Stumped, huh? I feel for you.

Haven't you noticed that every thread you ever create turns into a runaround? I answered everything you said in your last post in my previous posts. You have the sort of reasoning that locks in to an idea and then only considers any other opinion enough to try to find holes in it. If you don't even want to consider my opinion, and believe your opinions are actually facts, then I don't care to discuss anything with you.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Haven't you noticed that every thread you ever create turns into a runaround? I answered everything you said in your last post in my previous posts. You have the sort of reasoning that locks in to an idea and then only considers any other opinion enough to try to find holes in it. If you don't even want to consider my opinion, and believe your opinions are actually facts, then I don't care to discuss anything with you.

I considered your opinions. I am so sorry I disagreed with them and told you why. From now on, any response I give you really means, "Yes! Yes!"