Thread: "Absolutely torture."

You have to think though, it is torture, but it isn't the worst kind of torture. We could of been shoving needles and bashing hands, but we don't because that is disgusting. We need information to keep us safe against attacks. It has worked. Besides, people at Guantanamo have a cozier jail. If there is a more humane way to get information, I am all for it. People want to put their lives with many others at stake because we are pouring water down a guys nose that wants to kill us?

Originally Posted by hellohihello

If there is a more humane way to get information, I am all for it.

Hanns Scharff

I believe either the History or Discovery channel did an episode on him, although I cannot find it. There's more than just Wikipedia information on him.

Torture is torture and it is wrong no matter what information you get from it.

Originally Posted by hellohihello

You have to think though, it is torture, but it isn't the worst kind of torture. We could of been shoving needles and bashing hands, but we don't because that is disgusting. We need information to keep us safe against attacks. It has worked. Besides, people at Guantanamo have a cozier jail. If there is a more humane way to get information, I am all for it. People want to put their lives with many others at stake because we are pouring water down a guys nose that wants to kill us?

The only reason we waterboard instead of other torture techniques is because there aren't any outward physical effects.

Originally Posted by Invader

Hanns Scharff
I believe either the History or Discovery channel did an episode on him, although I cannot find it. There's more than just Wikipedia information on him.

Fixed the link.

I think one of the questions about such "techniques" is: "How reliable is the information?" When someone is that scared of repeated torture, chances are pretty good they'll say practically anything their captors want to hear (true or not) .

Waterboarding can be called off by the terrorist scum being waterboarded.

Now, who's ready to bitch about the torture caused by the damn terrorists? You know... the people who are boned up about torturing YOU. Where's the outrage over that??????

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Waterboarding can be called off by the terrorist scum being waterboarded.

Now, who's ready to bitch about the torture caused by the damn terrorists? You know... the people who are boned up about torturing YOU. Where's the outrage over that??????

This man speaks truth. They capture you, you are going to be in the worst condition ever.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Waterboarding can be called off by the terrorist scum being waterboarded.

Now, who's ready to bitch about the torture caused by the damn terrorists? You know... the people who are boned up about torturing YOU. Where's the outrage over that??????

If we're letting the terrorists call the shots on acceptable practices, why don't we start finding and killing their families? When we catch them we can stake them on posts along the road to Kabul.

This nation makes some fundamental claims about individual sovereignty and dignity of persons; it's why we're here. Sell that out for short term security and we've already failed to survive.

Originally Posted by hellohihello

This man speaks truth. They capture you, you are going to be in the worst condition ever.

Yes! Where are the marches against THAT?????

Originally Posted by Taosaur

If we're letting the terrorists call the shots on acceptable practices, why don't we start finding and killing their families? When we catch them we can stake them on posts along the road to Kabul.

This nation makes some fundamental claims about individual sovereignty and dignity of persons; it's why we're here. Sell that out for short term security and we've already failed to survive.

I don't think we should do that. We just have a disagreement about the nature of waterboarding. I don't think it's torture if the person can call it off. What I am really wondering at this point is how pissed off the terrorist sympathizers are at the terrorists. What do you think? Can you express anger toward the terrorists? They do want to hurt you and kill you. How do you feel about that? Will you start a thread about how much you hate the terrorists?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Yes! Where are the marches against THAT?????

How does that even make sense? We say we're opposed to torture and you ask "Why aren't you opposed to torture?" Who's doing it isn't the issue. We can't make the terrorists change their behavior short of prevailing against them and removing the grounds for future terrorists to arise. We can control our own behavior.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I don't think we should do that. We just have a disagreement about the nature of waterboarding. I don't think it's torture if the person can call it off.

What kind of torturer doesn't say, "I'll stop if you tell me what I want to know?"

Originally Posted by hellohihello

They capture you, you are going to be in the worst condition ever.

Aye, let's get rid of the competition.

You ever noticed how the 8th amendment of the US constitution says the following? Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

It doesn't say American citizens, or even people any where in it. It simply says that cruel and unusual punishments should never be inflicted. Torturing is against the constitution.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Yes! Where are the marches against THAT?????



I don't think we should do that. We just have a disagreement about the nature of waterboarding. I don't think it's torture if the person can call it off. What I am really wondering at this point is how pissed off the terrorist sympathizers are at the terrorists. What do you think? Can you express anger toward the terrorists? They do want to hurt you and kill you. How do you feel about that? Will you start a thread about how much you hate the terrorists?

Marching in this country against terrorists would accomplish nothing. We have no control over them, but that doesn't mean we should conduct ourselves in the same manners they do. We as America should be setting an example, regardless of what other people do.

Terrorist sympathizers is kind of like calling people Pro-Abortion.

No one sympathizes with those scum, just don't condone torturing no matter the reason.

Originally Posted by hellohihello

They capture you, you are going to be in the worst condition ever.

Originally Posted by Invader

Aye, let's get rid of the competition.

Haha, good one.

Originally Posted by Taosaur

How does that even make sense? We say we're opposed to torture and you ask "Why aren't you opposed to torture?" Who's doing it isn't the issue. We can't make the terrorists change their behavior short of prevailing against them and removing the grounds for future terrorists to arise. We can control our own behavior.

And torturing quite possibly adds fuel to the fire. Terrorists are going to take the examples of American torture practices and use them to stir more anti-Americanism.

Originally Posted by hellohihello

You have to think though, it is torture, but it isn't the worst kind of torture. We could of been shoving needles and bashing hands, but we don't because that is disgusting. We need information to keep us safe against attacks. It has worked. Besides, people at Guantanamo have a cozier jail. If there is a more humane way to get information, I am all for it. People want to put their lives with many others at stake because we are pouring water down a guys nose that wants to kill us?

Torture is ineffective.
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=1353449

Torture is illegal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture..._United_States

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Waterboarding can be called off by the terrorist scum being waterboarded.

Now, who's ready to bitch about the torture caused by the damn terrorists? You know... the people who are boned up about torturing YOU. Where's the outrage over that??????

We cannot dictate the morals of our enemies;only our own.

I'd like to end with a pertinent quote,

... The United States is committed to the world-wide elimination of torture and we are leading this fight by example. I call on all governments to join with the United States and the community of law-abiding nations in prohibiting, investigating, and prosecuting all acts of torture and in undertaking to prevent other cruel and unusual punishment. I call on all nations to speak out against torture in all its forms and to make ending torture an essential part of their diplomacy...







– George W. Bush, "Statement in Support of Victims of Torture". White House Press Release. 23 June 2003. http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archiv...0030626-3.html

Originally Posted by Taosaur

How does that even make sense? We say we're opposed to torture and you ask "Why aren't you opposed to torture?" Who's doing it isn't the issue. We can't make the terrorists change their behavior short of prevailing against them and removing the grounds for future terrorists to arise. We can control our own behavior.

I am asking where the outrage is. I rarely come across people who both cry out against torturing terrorists and also cry out againts the terrorists themselves. How often do you come across it? I have yet to see you do it, for example. Will you?

People can march against organizations and governments outside of their own countries. Europeans do it against the U.S. government all the time. If people would march as hard against terrorists as they do against people trying not to get attacked by terrorists, it would have an effect on at least the Muslim world, which has been in a state of deafening silence for too long. They need to do a great deal more screaming about what terrorism does to the image of their religion and the lives of their people.

Originally Posted by Taosaur

What kind of torturer doesn't say, "I'll stop if you tell me what I want to know?"

The sadistic kind, and the kind that wants to add extra torment to ensure that the answer will be correct. What the U.S. government has done is tell known captured terrorist leaders who of course have important information that they will be drowned (which is a lie) if the terrorist leader does not give information that is very needed. They do the water treatment for a few seconds and then give them another chance to talk. It works. Our government has done it three times, all three scummy terrorists were known terrorist leaders, and life saving information was pulled out of them all three times. The good thing was done in all three cases.

Again, I challenge you to show me how much passion you have against the terrorists. Will you start a thread on it?

Originally Posted by DeathCell

Terrorist sympathizers is kind of like calling people Pro-Abortion.

Both are real. Taosaur is a terrorist sympathizer, and I am pro-abortion, for example. There is way too much dysfunctional trash out there that never should have been born. Yay abortion! (for real)

Originally Posted by DeathCell

No one sympathizes with those scum, just don't condone torturing no matter the reason.

Then where is their outrage against them? How come I almost never see it from the people who oppose waterboarding and such and the rare occasions that I see what might be a spec it is a weak footnote like, "Eh, I don't exactly love terrorists."? Where is the passion?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I am asking where the outrage is. I rarely come across people who both cry out against torturing terrorists and also cry out againts the terrorists themselves. How often do you come across it? I have yet to see you do it, for example. Will you?

I generally avoid stating the obvious until it becomes obvious that it's not obvious to everyone, so here you go: terrorism is bad. It's real bad. Terrorists are by definition people who do bad things. By joining a terrorist organization, they have declared their intent to do bad (but righteous! they would say) things. You might say it's part of their constitution.

In fact, all sorts of organizations and still plenty of governments are set up with a stated willingness, even enthusiasm, to do very, very bad things. I had the good fortune to be born in an organization, a government, founded on the principle of not doing bad things, to or for its people. We didn't exactly hit the ground running on that front, what with the genocide and the slavery, the sweatshops and the chain gangs, the dossiers on pop stars and the war on drugs, but we're working on it. As someone whose ancestors and relations have more often been on the receiving than the giving end of very bad things, I'm inclined to keep that ball rolling.

So when I hear people going on about "evildoers" and "scum" who "aren't human" and "deserve what they get" because "they would do worse to us," the reason I don't join in isn't because I think the asshole who talked a kid into blowing herself up in a hotel lobby is a stand-up guy, but because I think the people running their mouths are a bigger threat to the ongoing American Revolution.

Originally Posted by Invader

I believe either the History or Discovery channel did an episode on him, although I cannot find it.

I saw it once, pretty good show. Don't remember much about it though.

Originally Posted by hellohihello

You have to think though, it is torture, but it isn't the worst kind of torture. We could of been shoving needles and bashing hands, but we don't because that is disgusting. We need information to keep us safe against attacks. It has worked. Besides, people at Guantanamo have a cozier jail. If there is a more humane way to get information, I am all for it. People want to put their lives with many others at stake because we are pouring water down a guys nose that wants to kill us?

Get real. Or die. Preferably, after a long run of torture. Torturing terrorists is like starting war and saying it's for the sake of peace.

Seriously, get real.

Originally Posted by Taosaur

I generally avoid stating the obvious until it becomes obvious that it's not obvious to everyone, so here you go: terrorism is bad. It's real bad. Terrorists are by definition people who do bad things. By joining a terrorist organization, they have declared their intent to do bad (but righteous! they would say) things. You might say it's part of their constitution.

Hmmm, I'm still not feeling it. You just don't seem all that pissed off at them, just like Mr. Mackey doesn't seem all that pissed off at drugs. "Terrorists are baaaaayaaad, mmmmmkay?"

Originally Posted by Taosaur

So when I hear people going on about "evildoers" and "scum" who "aren't human" and "deserve what they get" because "they would do worse to us," the reason I don't join in isn't because I think the asshole who talked a kid into blowing herself up in a hotel lobby is a stand-up guy, but because I think the people running their mouths are a bigger threat to the ongoing American Revolution.

Guess which group has a boner for nuking your city, Washington, New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, and the entire rest of the country if possible. It's not simply because, "Oh, we could have such peace, but they are on our holy land and we are xenophobic rednecks but such great people otherwise. What peace we could have if not for that one thing."

Waterboarding is, and has always been, torture. There is no logical argument to the contrary. All there is is denial and intentional misdirection to that specific issue.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

Waterboarding is, and has always been, torture. There is no logical argument to the contrary. All there is is denial and intentional misdirection to that specific issue.

That is not true. I have a challenge for you. Summarize my argument against the notion that waterboarding is torture.

Terrorism is torture. Let's prevent it.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

That is not true. I have a challenge for you. Summarize my argument against the notion that waterboarding is torture.

Terrorism is torture. Let's prevent it.

As I see it, your argument is that waterboarding isn't torture if someone can stop it by providing the information desired. Am I right?

I say that is false. Torture is torture, no matter what is gained from it.

And yes, terrorism is torture, but again, that doesn't have very much to do with the specific conversation. We all know how you feel about terrorism, but throwing out that "terrorism is torture" in every conversation that has to do with waterboarding (or torturing terrorists) doesn't negate the fact that waterboarding is torture.