Thread: "Absolutely torture."

Originally Posted by Alric

I will explain it to you right now. There is a simple and very logical reason for why people who are against torture do not have deep uncontrollable hate for terrorists.

Its because every person here knows torture is horrible and wrong. The only way you can defend torture is for you to have such hate for the person it is being used on, that your emotions cloud your rational mind.

If you are thinking clearly on the subject, and your emotions are not in control of you then your going to agree that there is no reason we should ever torture a person.

Then why do they hate the waterboarders?

I am not saying with certainty which individuals here hate terrorists and which don't... because I don't know. I am just talking about what I see from the American population at large. I see a great deal more hate on the whole directed at waterboarders than I do at terrorists. I hope we don't have any more terrorist attacks here, but if God forbid we do, I think the tendency will shift. In the days right after 9/11, pretty much the whole country agreed with the things I have been saying this whole time. I guess the disproportionate hate is a result of how well our anti-terrorism policies have been working.

The difference between army training and waterboarding is the difference between S&M and rape. There's no consent.

Just sayin'...

BTW I think universal mind needs to calm down. That someone does not have an extreme uncontrollable hate for terrorists, does not signify that they are in the least pro-terrorist. Terrorists are criminals, yes, and they are insane and delusional. So give them a fair trial and a life sentence. We know torture is ineffective. We know it is also wrong. So...

Originally Posted by RedfishBluefish

Just sayin'...

My point was to put it into perspective in terms of pain. Special forces do it consentually all the time, so it's not like having a butcher knife up the ass or a face in an ant bed.

Originally Posted by RedfishBluefish

BTW I think universal mind needs to calm down. That someone does not have an extreme uncontrollable hate for terrorists, does not signify that they are in the least pro-terrorist. Terrorists are criminals, yes, and they are insane and delusional. So give them a fair trial and a life sentence. We know torture is ineffective. We know it is also wrong. So...

Calm down? That's silly. Your point did not at all address the disproportionate outrage I talked about. Again, I don't think waterboarding is torture. It sucks and causes a bit of pain for a few seconds, but if it is "torture" then so are the lots of other things I mentioned. Tell me how much you want to call off those things.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

My point was to put it into perspective in terms of pain. Special forces do it consentually all the time, so it's not like having a butcher knife up the ass or a face in an ant bed.

Calm down? That's silly. Your point did not at all address the disproportionate outrage I talked about. Again, I don't think waterboarding is torture. It sucks and causes a bit of pain for a few seconds, but if it is "torture" then so are the lots of other things I mentioned. Tell me how much you want to call off those things.

You're just arguing that it's not the worst kind of torture; it's still the deliberate infliction of intolerable physical sensation and psychic distress. Making up newspeak for it doesn't change the character of the act.

People are upset about it because we wish to preserve the character of this nation and its commitment to human dignity. It doesn't mean we "hate" everyone associated with waterboarding--I'm disappointed and disturbed by it, but I don't even "hate" Dick Cheney. I have a very negative view of him, but he's human and thinks he's doing the right thing. And yes, I can say the same thing about the terrorists. Not hating them doesn't mean I won't act to stop them, but it does mean that they, like any human, must be afforded a base level of dignity. Otherwise, America is over--we can pack it in and go Lord of the Flies. I'm not going to be bullied into joining anybody's hate club, yours or theirs.

Originally Posted by Taosaur

You're just arguing that it's not the worst kind of torture; it's still the deliberate infliction of intolerable physical sensation and psychic distress. Making up newspeak for it doesn't change the character of the act.

No, I am arguing what torture really is. You folks seem to think that anything that causes any level of physical pain with any level of emotional distress is torture. By that definition, hard prison labor is torture. I disagree. Like I keep saying, a criminal trial is a horror that can go on for months and months. You can call all of that "intolerable". For me, being forced to get up early every morning is intolerable. Should prisoners be allowed to sleep in every day?

Are people being tortured when they are tasered and can stop being tasered by not resisting arrest? When they are handled with billy clubs or arm twisting when they resist arrest? When they are in basic training and cannot quit? By your definition, there is a great deal of stuff that needs to be ended. What is so special about a few seconds of anxiety and possible water up the nose that can be called off simply by giving up terrorist attack information that will prevent hundreds of thousands of deaths? Boo fucking hoo.

I honestly don't think that ANY of you would refrain from waterboarding or far worse if you knew the city where people you love live is about to be blown up if the scum you have in custody does not give up life saving information. I think all of you would have a completely different outlook if you were ever forced to deal with the realities we are talking about.

Originally Posted by Taosaur

People are upset about it because we wish to preserve the character of this nation and its commitment to human dignity. It doesn't mean we "hate" everyone associated with waterboarding--I'm disappointed and disturbed by it, but I don't even "hate" Dick Cheney. I have a very negative view of him, but he's human and thinks he's doing the right thing. And yes, I can say the same thing about the terrorists. Not hating them doesn't mean I won't act to stop them, but it does mean that they, like any human, must be afforded a base level of dignity. Otherwise, America is over--we can pack it in and go Lord of the Flies. I'm not going to be bullied into joining anybody's hate club, yours or theirs.

Preserving innocent life is far more important to me than acting like we are above tough interrogation. I put life before image, especially when I majorly disagree with anybody who thinks waterboarding terrorists is a bad thing. If Europeans think we are barbaric for it, so what? They are wrong.

If anybody you love were ever murdered by terrorists, you would hate the terrorists more than you have ever dreamed of hating anything. Acting like you are above waterboarding would take such a back seat that it would be completely out of the picture.

Tasering someone multiple times is torture. I have seen cases where people were tasered over and over even when they weren't resisting, and in cases like that its police torture, and it is very wrong.

Harder labor isn't torture as long as you don't work them until they drop. If you work them until they pass out from it, then yes that is torture, and its against the law and stuff.

Court isn't torture and you know it. That is just you being argumentative. There is no physical distress involved, nor is there any physiological abuse done to the person.

Lets look at the reality of things though. The fact of the matter is torture is a very minor thing in the way of our daily lives. We don't see terrorists on the streets, they do not attack us, there hasn't been any attacks since 9/11. Terrorism was totally overblown to begin with. We are not in any real danger from them, and so even if we wanted to agree with you, we would not. Because there simply isn't any real threats that we need torture to stop.

To answer you question though, why do we hate people who torture others? Because torturing is an evil act. We are against torture, its in the US constitution. Torture is not tolerated, and it never should be.

You know what? You like using bad examples to prove your point and you keep going to the extreme. Saying long trails are torture, so let me do the same. I will use a horrible disgusting example.

You have a terrorist who had planted a dirty nuclear bomb within a major city and you knew it would go off within an hour and he has resisted all torture so far. You have his baby son though. If you knew for a fact he would give up the information and you would save everyone in the city, would you put the babies head in a vice and crush its head while he watched?

Originally Posted by Alric

Tasering someone multiple times is torture. I have seen cases where people were tasered over and over even when they weren't resisting, and in cases like that its police torture, and it is very wrong.

That does not answer my question. Is tasering somebody at all when they resist arrest "torture"?

Originally Posted by Alric

Harder labor isn't torture as long as you don't work them until they drop. If you work them until they pass out from it, then yes that is torture, and its against the law and stuff.

Why is it not torture if they just work until they feel physical pain while being scared because they are in prison?

Originally Posted by Alric

Court isn't torture and you know it. That is just you being argumentative. There is no physical distress involved

They have to get up very early in the morning while they are in jail. That is awful for some people. Also, criminal trial is an emotional horror story... that goes on for days to months. The emotional aspect of waterboarding is what makes it suck so bad.

Originally Posted by Alric

Lets look at the reality of things though. The fact of the matter is torture is a very minor thing in the way of our daily lives. We don't see terrorists on the streets, they do not attack us, there hasn't been any attacks since 9/11. Terrorism was totally overblown to begin with. We are not in any real danger from them, and so even if we wanted to agree with you, we would not. Because there simply isn't any real threats that we need torture to stop.

We aren't having terrorist attacks because we keep stopping the attempts and preventing them ahead of time.

Originally Posted by Alric

To answer you question though, why do we hate people who torture others? Because torturing is an evil act. We are against torture, its in the US constitution. Torture is not tolerated, and it never should be.

I never asked that. I asked why the outrage is disproportionate to the outrage toward the terrorists.

Originally Posted by Alric

You know what? You like using bad examples to prove your point and you keep going to the extreme. Saying long trails are torture, so let me do the same. I will use a horrible disgusting example.

You have a terrorist who had planted a dirty nuclear bomb within a major city and you knew it would go off within an hour and he has resisted all torture so far. You have his baby son though. If you knew for a fact he would give up the information and you would save everyone in the city, would you put the babies head in a vice and crush its head while he watched?

I use very realistic examples. Wake up and stop acting like you were raised in Ice Cream Land.

Yes, I would crush the baby's head if I thought doing so would save an entire city. Would you let a whole city (thousands of babies included) die to save one baby?

Have you read the Trolley thread in the Philosophy forum?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Then why do they hate the waterboarders?
In the days right after 9/11, pretty much the whole country agreed with the things I have been saying this whole time. I guess the disproportionate hate is a result of how well our anti-terrorism policies have been working.

I would say that the dis-proportionate ambivalence for a few years after 9-11 was a knee-jerk reaction to the loss of american lives, and does not reflect the core nature of the american people. This current backlash is indicative of things getting back to normal as well they should as part of the healing process. The world really isn't out to get us but torture, and our willingness to support middle-eastern governments that engage in it, push it in that direction