Thread: "Absolutely torture."

Originally Posted by Invader

How would waterboarding be done correctly in this instance?

The way that doesn't result in brain damage and so forth.

Originally Posted by Invader

Please bear in mind that being held in captivity with men who have malicious intentions can cause psychological distress.

Do you want to ban prisons?

Originally Posted by Alric

Water boarding, when done correctly causes severe emotional disturbance that lasts the rest of a persons life. It is just as horrible as rape, especially if done multiple times.

Says who? Khallid Sheik Muhammed?

US soldiers have been water boarded in the past and they have came back saying stuff like that. The fact is, water boarding was designed to be as horrible as possible to break a persons will.

Water boarding is a horrible crime that is done in secret. The idea that people water board with the utmost care for the person being tortured is silly. People die and suffer permanent injury from it.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

The way that doesn't result in brain damage and so forth.

Right, and I'm asking you how. How would one do this?

Do you want to ban prisons?

I think they can be refined, the same way I believe information gathering can be refined.

water boarding is torture because it simulates the feeling of drowning, the feeling of dying (and drowning is one of the worst ways to go). if you were water boarded you would know this for sure. it's like someone killing you over and over again. those guys had doctors that made sure that they would live to feel it again (tens and hundreds of times, or as they say '3 sessions')

we can compare examples, or we can go read established definitions that were written in blood themselves, the geneva convention.

It is not torture. You know they aren't drowning you. You know they would never let you die.

I don't see how slight physical discomfort and a little bit of water up the nose qualifies as "severe pain and suffering", as the official description of torture says it should be.

If you think waterboarding is not torture, please explain the above.

(Nice to see UM is here )

[SomeGuy]

Since you can't read my former paragraph, I try again with three.

In contrast to submerging the head face-forward in water, waterboarding precipitates an almost immediate gag reflex. The technique does not inevitably cause lasting physical damage. It can cause extreme pain, dry drowning, damage to lungs, brain damage from oxygen deprivation, other physical injuries including broken bones due to struggling against restraints, lasting psychological damage or, if uninterrupted, death. Adverse physical consequences can start manifesting months after the event; psychological effects can last for years.

In contrast to submerging the head face-forward in water, waterboarding precipitates an almost immediate gag reflex. The technique does not inevitably cause lasting physical damage. It can cause extreme pain, dry drowning, damage to lungs, brain damage from oxygen deprivation, other physical injuries including broken bones due to struggling against restraints, lasting psychological damage or, if uninterrupted, death. Adverse physical consequences can start manifesting months after the event; psychological effects can last for years.

In contrast to submerging the head face-forward in water, waterboarding precipitates an almost immediate gag reflex. The technique does not inevitably cause lasting physical damage. It can cause extreme pain, dry drowning, damage to lungs, brain damage from oxygen deprivation, other physical injuries including broken bones due to struggling against restraints, lasting psychological damage or, if uninterrupted, death. Adverse physical consequences can start manifesting months after the event; psychological effects can last for years.

A doctor's statement:

"Dr. Allen Keller, the director of the Bellevue/N.Y.U. Program for Survivors of Torture, has treated "a number of people" who had been subjected to forms of near-asphyxiation, including waterboarding. An interview for The New Yorker states, "[He] argued that it was indeed torture, 'Some victims were still traumatized years later', he said. "


Since you quoted the UN as an authority you have to acknowledge UN's view on Waterboarding, UN's view on waterboarding is very clear!!!!

"The United Nations' Report of the Committee Against Torture: Thirty-fifth Session of November 2006" says it's torture.

Almost all nations in the world have signed and ratified "United Nations Convention Against Torture" including USA.

Universal Declaration of Human Rights Article 5 states: "No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment".

UN High Commissioner for Human Rights says it's torture.

Senior Medical Consultant to the International Rehabilitation Council for Torture Victims and former member of the United Nations Committee Against Torture has said:

"It's a clear-cut case: Waterboarding can without any reservation be labeled as torture. It fulfils all of the four central criteria that according to the United Nations Convention Against Torture (UNCAT) defines an act of torture. First, when water is forced into your lungs in this fashion, in addition to the pain you are likely to experience an immediate and extreme fear of death. You may even suffer a heart attack from the stress or damage to the lungs and brain from inhalation of water and oxygen deprivation. In other words there is no doubt that waterboarding causes severe physical and/or mental suffering – one central element in the UNCAT's definition of torture. In addition the CIA's waterboarding clearly fulfills the three additional definition criteria stated in the Convention for a deed to be labeled torture, since it is 1) done intentionally, 2) for a specific purpose and 3) by a representative of a state – in this case the US"

It is also a violation of Common Article 3 of the Geneva Convention.

And I could go on forever.

If you are still to biased and emotional to see it objectively then I can do no more, maybe the resilient Oneironaut will keep this going for pages and pages, but there is no point.

In contrast to submerging the head face-forward in water, waterboarding precipitates an almost immediate gag reflex.

Because of water up the nose? I don't gag when that happens.

The technique does not inevitably cause lasting physical damage. It can cause extreme pain, dry drowning, damage to lungs, brain damage from oxygen deprivation, other physical injuries including broken bones due to struggling against restraints, lasting psychological damage or, if uninterrupted, death.

Extreme pain...water up the nose BURNS. That's all. Damage to lungs...breathing cigarette smoke causes that, much worse than Waterboarding. Is being around a smoker considered torture? I'm sure they don't do it long enough to cause brain damage. And broken bones against restraints? That's the prisoner's fault. And besides, do you realize how hard you would have to fight the restraints to break bones? Psychological damage? How does that disturb your mind enough to cause psychological damage? They must have really weak mids if it does cause that. And by the way, it is interrupted. So, they are careful with it. If uninterrupted, eating can cause death, swimming can cause death, running, cooking, typing, showering, walking, breathing into a bag, breathing helium, etc.

Adverse physical consequences can start manifesting months after the event; psychological effects can last for years.

How do they manifest after months? That makes no sense. It doesn't take months for a bone to break or for brain damage to occur.

As for the psychological effects, it's not like they got raped. They don't sit in corners staring straight ahead with no words because they got water in the face.

Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia

[If you are still to biased and emotional to see it objectively then I can do no more, maybe the resilient Oneironaut will keep this going for pages and pages, but there is no point.

Instead of making empty jackass comments like that, try countering the points I have been making. I have made very specific points and used very specific analogies. All you have done is dodge those, make points about what waterboarding can do when performed in the worst possible ways, and appealed to the supposed authority of weasel snakes in the U.N. If you are going to appeal to U.N. supposed authority, you might as well be telling me what Hamas thinks. I don't care. Counter my points.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Instead of making empty jackass comments like that, try countering the points I have been making. I have made very specific points and used very specific analogies. All you have done is dodge those, make points about what waterboarding can do when performed in the worst possible ways, and appealed to the supposed authority of weasel snakes in the U.N. If you are going to appeal to U.N. supposed authority, you might as well be telling me what Hamas thinks. I don't care. Counter my points.

Give me a fucking break, I have not dodged your freaking points. I have not even dignified answering your points other what wrote before.

HAVE I APPEALED TO SUPPOSED AUTOURITY?!

[SomeGuy] Wrote "According to the UN Convention Against Torture, torture is:......................."

He used UN AS AN AUTHORITY!!! To show that how contradicting it is to quote a UN Convention when that F******* same convention states that WATERBOARDING IS TORTURE!!

"Counter my points" Hah! I mean what I wrote earlier, THERE IS NO POINT DISCUSSION WITH BIASED AND EMOTIONAL IMPACTED INDIVIDUALS, JUST LIKE THERE IS NO POINT DISCUSSING WITH HAMAS OR BRAINWASHED TERROISTS!

Originally Posted by [SomeGuy]

It is not torture. You know they aren't drowning you. You know they would never let you die.

that is the obvious difference between attempted murder and torture. you should look this stuff up before making any serious assertions.

What? Attempted murder is when I shoot you and run, but you don't die. That post makes no sense.

Originally Posted by [SomeGuy]

What? Attempted murder is when I shoot you and run, but you don't die. That post makes no sense.

yes, that's attempted murder. torture is when i shoot you and you don't die, and then i get to shoot you again, and again. and you won't die, cause i want to shoot you again.

e; and no, you would not 'know that they aren't trying to kill you'. you would think that you are dying. for sure. don't pour water on your face and try to disprove that. it's an effective method (as they claim), or they wouldnt be using it.

Originally Posted by Invader

Right, and I'm asking you how. How would one do this?

I don't know the details, but I do know waterboarding can be performed in a way that it doesn't damage the lungs, make the brain suffocate, or result in years of psychological disturbance. However it is being performed on U.S. special forces is the right way. They are not having those problems. Are any of the three terrorist leaders we have performed waterboarding on so far having any of those problems?

Originally Posted by Invader

I think they can be refined, the same way I believe information gathering can be refined.

You want prisoners to stop coming in contact with other prisoners? That is what it would take to make them not be around people with malicious intentions.

I don't really see how this could possibly cause severe emotional disturbance.

Don't be such an idiot SomeGuy. You just had someone explains how it works and you said its not true. Water boarding isn't painful because you get water up your nose. Its painful because the water goes into your lungs.

Have you ever eaten or drink something and it goes down the wrong tube towards your lung instead of your stomach? That would be more like it. If you have you know you start coughing right away and its not at all pleasant. And that is only one thing. Not prolonged exposes for minutes.

What happens if you either actually sucks water into your lungs, which causes extreme pain and cuts off oxygen to your body, even after it is stopped(The waters still in there). Or your air way spasms shuts and cuts off your breathing all together. In this case, you can die or suffer brain damage even after they stop as you can no longer breath.

The lungs can filter smoke to a point, it can not filter water. Your not a fish, people don't have gills. Water is not suppose to go into the lungs. If it does, it cause SERIOUS problems.

As you said, how hard would a person have to struggle to cause broken bones? Very very hard. Which means they must have been in extreme pain to have had struggled that hard. Yet you discount the pain as if it was nothing.

Physical effects can happen much later. Especially if the lungs were damaged during it, it may not be clear right away. And yes it is just like rape. Some people may act just like that, especially after prolonged and constant torture. Some of them never go near water again.

Originally Posted by Alric

What happens if you either actually sucks water into your lungs, which causes extreme pain and cuts off oxygen to your body, even after it is stopped(The waters still in there). Or your air way spasms shuts and cuts off your breathing all together. In this case, you can die or suffer brain damage even after they stop as you can no longer breath.

1. Is that what is happening to our special forces when they get waterboarded?

2. If so, what percentage of them are permanently harmed by it?

3. Did that happen to the three terrorist leaders the U.S. has waterboarded?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

1. Is that what is happening to our special forces when they get waterboarded?

2. If so, what percentage of them are permanently harmed by it?

3. Did that happen to the three terrorist leaders the U.S. has waterboarded?

.

In most cases they stopped water boarding as a part of training to resist torture, because it would break the soldier. As for prisoners of war, a ton of them have had physiological problems due to torture used against them. Water boarding being one of them.

Its hard to know what percentage of people who have been water boarded suffer permanent harm, as its illegal and always done in secret. Its against the US constitution, the Genevra convention, and against the law by the UN.

However the technique has been around for a very long time, and people know what happens. This isn't theoretical , we know it. The reason people argue for it uses however, is it doesn't leave outwards signs that the person has been tortured. You can't see the damage done to the lungs just by looking at the person and you can deny the physiological stuff. Where is the proof? That is why people want to use it, as compared to things that live visible scars and stuff.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I don't know the details, but I do know waterboarding can be performed in a way that it doesn't damage the lungs, make the brain suffocate, or result in years of psychological disturbance. However it is being performed on U.S. special forces is the right way. They are not having those problems. Are any of the three terrorist leaders we have performed waterboarding on so far having any of those problems?

Are the terrorist leaders having problems? I can give no real answer besides "I don't know". If you have access to any documentation or studies that have been performed to examine the long term effects of waterboarding, please share it with us. If you've already posted a link to any source for this specific information then I apologize in advance for missing it, as this thread has grown quickly and I have not kept up with every response. I'd also like to point out that U.S. special forces are like another breed of human beings entirely, at least as far as physical and mental stress endurance goes. Because of this I cannot say that I'm convinced that they'd work as an adequate measure of how safe waterboarding is for any other military personnel, whether they be friendly or hostile.

You want prisoners to stop coming in contact with other prisoners? That is what it would take to make them not be around people with malicious intentions.

Prisons should double as rehabilitation centers. That is all.