Thread: "Absolutely torture."

Originally Posted by sleepingdog

i'm still waiting on your definition of torture. but if it stands (as the consensus is, and has been for a long time) then you are arguing for the 'right way' to torture. that's a tough one, good luck.

Done the right way, it is not torture. Torture involves something more painful, longer lasting, and more mentally damaging. See my earlier posts about spectrum, subjectivity, and boundary. Did you skip over it? Counter my analogies while you are at it, especially about the early morning criminal trials. This is getting way too repetitive.

Originally Posted by sleepingdog

on another side note. the better question is; do we accept a world were torture is legal, prevalent, and used as an accepted way to interrogate your enemies?

Again (Jesus I am having to use that word a lot.), I think torture should be illegal and that waterboarding should only be used on known terrorist leaders.

Originally Posted by sleepingdog

people have already decided this. but hey, let's do it again! just please remember that we (the USA!) are the only ones willing and able to make these rules. if we change them, the rest of the world will change too.

Yes, and we will all live in marshmallow houses in Candyland. All the members of Al Qaeda really need are hugs.

Originally Posted by sleepingdog

so keep arguing for the 'right way' to torture and you'll see a whole bunch of other people doing it too. that'd be fun.

Yeah, we are the magicians and the rest of the world are the robots.

That is because there really is no distinction between the water boarding. Just because they didn't accidentally kill one of the three people they used it on, doesn't really mean much. Especially since they refuse to give information on this subject. We do not even know if they are suffering physiologically or not. Yet alone, know about the other people who may or may not have been water boarded. Though them hiding what they have been doing to prisoners is not really the issue here. We are talking about the general method used to water board, which most people seem to agree is torture. And even if you do not breath in water, and don't suffer permanently from it, that wouldn't really change the pain you went through during it either.

SomeGuy, if you seriously want to test it you need atleast two people to help you. One to hold you down and the other to pour water in your face. Remember you are supposed to be gagged while it happens as well.

You can't just splash some water in your face and claim it must be the same as water boarding. Its not even close.

When I get a chance, and when I don't have strep throat, I will. I promise.

Originally Posted by Alric

We are talking about the general method used to water board

No, we are talking about the American method, which is used on our special forces.

No we are not. You only brought that up to side track the real issue.

Excuse me? We are discussing the US method of waterboarding. You're sidetracking because you are losing.

Originally Posted by Alric

No we are not. You only brought that up to side track the real issue.

Oh, that's classic! It should go into the internet dodgeball hall of fame.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Oh, that's classic! It should go into the internet dodgeball hall of fame.

lulzertron


I'd laugh harder if someone actually made that.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

While we are talking about this, here is a link for you to consider. It lists foiled terrorist attacks and terrorist arrests since 9/11. You can read about the stopped attempts to bomb a subway by Madison Square Garden in New York, to blow up 10 passenger airplanes in England, to light up a fuel line at the JFK Airport in New York and a nearby neighborhood, to blow up the Brooklyn Bridge, and others. Pay special attention to the information that was gotten out of Khallid Sheik Muhammed, especially if you love Bill Clinton. Guess how they got the information out of him.

http://www.heritage.org/research/Hom...nse/bg2085.cfm

Oh, I see, the US foils terrorist attacks by inconveniencing and annoying their captives. Harden The Fuck Up, terrorists!

Originally Posted by RedfishBluefish

Oh, I see, the US foils terrorist attacks by inconveniencing and annoying their captives. Harden The Fuck Up, terrorists!

Harden the fuck up terrorists? Do you really want that to happen? You might no be able to go anywhere, in case on of their plans was to blow up the local interstate, or local subway, if we didn't waterboard them.

Seriously, that's a stupid post.

The funny part is that we pour water on terrorrists' faces until they get irritated enough to tell us their secret plans so that the annoying men will go away.

I don't think that is funny at all.

Originally Posted by [SomeGuy]

I'd laugh harder if someone actually made that.

Maybe we should start that. We could get people to send in entries with links and announce new inductions every year. Hmmm... $$$$$$

Originally Posted by RedfishBluefish

Oh, I see, the US foils terrorist attacks by inconveniencing and annoying their captives. Harden The Fuck Up, terrorists!

That's what I was suspecting some people here might be feeling. I can't say I am all that surprised by your post. I have heard far lefties on television inadvertantly expressing frustration over the fact that the terrorists have had such failure here since 9/11, and now you are showing it. It is completely obvious to me that the element is out there. I'm sure you will be feeling that way if they ever blow up a mall while your relatives are in it. You do know that they don't return your affection, I hope. Don't think for two seconds that they appreciate your sympathy and cheering and will spare you if you are at Disney World when they want to gas it. Do you know what Stockholm Syndrome is?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Maybe we should start that. We could get people to send in entries with links and announce new inductions every year. Hmmm... $$$$$$

Monezors. I aw monezors in there.


dolla bill yo

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

That's what I was suspecting some people here might be feeling. I can't say I am all that surprised by your post. I have heard far lefties on television inadvertantly expressing frustration over the fact that the terrorists have had such failure here since 9/11, and now you are showing it. It is completely obvious to me that the element is out there. I'm sure you will be feeling that way if they ever blow up a mall while your relatives are in it. You do know that they don't return your affection, I hope. Don't think for two seconds that they appreciate your sympathy and cheering and will spare you if you are at Disney World when they want to gas it. Do you know what Stockholm Syndrome is?

What. I don't think you got the joke. Either of you.

Simply put, if waterboarding is not torture why the fuck are we using it on terrorists? And why would it have succeeded in breaking them? Are they just weak or something?

Originally Posted by RedfishBluefish

Are they just weak or something?

Yes.

Originally Posted by RedfishBluefish

What. I don't think you got the joke. Either of you.

Simply put, if waterboarding is not torture why the fuck are we using it on terrorists? And why would it have succeeded in breaking them? Are they just weak or something?

Why does the threat of arrest get people to talk? Why does the threat of prison get people to rat on drug dealers, even walk into the lion's den with a wire? Why does the threat of a traffic ticket make people drive more slowly than otherwise? Why do paddlings get most school kids acting right? Lots of major bummers are not "torture" but still can be used to control people.

Umm no that isn't true at all. We were talking about how water boarding has been declared torture all throughout history by nearly all countries. You are the one who came out of no where with the claim that the US is using a brand new form of water boarding that is different than everything else used in the past. Without even showing one piece of evidence to show that its different than any of the past water boarding. It was just a wild claim, that the US doesn't use torture, it uses a 'friendly' water boarding approch. That makes no sense at all.

The "US form of water boarding", has about as much merit as the waking up early is torture arguement. Which are close to the, "The three people didn't die from it, so it isn't painful" arguement.

Originally Posted by Alric

Umm no that isn't true at all. We were talking about how water boarding has been declared torture all throughout history by nearly all countries. You are the one who came out of no where with the claim that the US is using a brand new form of water boarding that is different than everything else used in the past. Without even showing one piece of evidence to show that its different than any of the past water boarding. It was just a wild claim, that the US doesn't use torture, it uses a 'friendly' water boarding approch. That makes no sense at all.

The "US form of water boarding", has about as much merit as the waking up early is torture arguement. Which are close to the, "The three people didn't die from it, so it isn't painful" arguement.

I didn't say anything about a brand new form of waterboarding. I just said that I am only talking about U.S. style waterboarding because I am not familiar enough with the others to take up for them. Also, pretty much this entire thread has been about U.S. waterboarding. So tell me... What psychological diagnoses have our special forces been developing as a result of their waterboarding experiences?

The terrorist attacks waterboarding is meant to prevent qualify as mass torture as well as mass murder. Does that make your blood boil too? Tell me all about it.

Its about us water boarding our enemies, not us water boarding our allies, which we do in a safe environment and are not going all out on them. There are obvious differences between the water boarding that goes on in secret in a prison outside our country, and what we do to a person who has done nothing wrong and would sue you for tons of money if they get harmed.

Even still, the training does mess some people up. The vast majority of people who go through that training will tell you that water boarding is torture. You rarely find people who say they were water boarded and it was no big deal, even with them having gone through it in ideal situation.

As for terrorists, there is simply never a reason to ever torture them. Not only is it illegal, as many people always point on when dealing with this topic, torture doesn't work. Torture has never been as reliable as other interrogation methods that do not involve physical pain.

The best case scenario is that your arguing for a 'questionable' torture technique. One that is so horrible people break down quickly and tell you anything you want to get out of it, even if it isn't true(hence the unreliable part).

Originally Posted by RedfishBluefish

The funny part is that we pour water on terrorrists' faces until they get irritated enough to tell us their secret plans so that the annoying men will go away.

we're gonna need something stronger. i suggest Kool-Aid. the kind they use on people who try to justify torture. strawberry, gimme the damn strawberry. they'd never see it coming, they live in caves in the desert for Christ's sake!

btw. i love you all for being so damn funny. esp you U mind. funniest so far.

Of course! just wait till they get the tiniest drop of it in their mouth, then BAM! we can accuse them of drinking the Kool-Aid, and they won't be able to deny it! It's genious!

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

The terrorist attacks waterboarding is meant to prevent qualify as mass torture as well as mass murder. Does that make your blood boil too? Tell me all about it.

You have to get off of this.

This thread is about whether or not "U.S. style" waterboarding is torture, not about how anyone feels about the terrorist attacks. I've noticed that every conversation, that has anything to do with terrorism, you want to turn into a discussion about how much we hate the terrorists. Please stay on topic.

And, on topic, explain to me again how waterboarding is analogous to trial, with respect to the process and physiological effects.

Originally Posted by RedfishBluefish

Of course! just wait till they get the tiniest drop of it in their mouth, then BAM! we can accuse them of drinking the Kool-Aid, and they won't be able to deny it! It's genious!

Originally Posted by sleepingdog

btw. i love you all for being so damn funny. esp you U mind. funniest so far.

I love both of you for saying that weak stuff instead of debating my points.

Originally Posted by Alric

Its about us water boarding our enemies, not us water boarding our allies, which we do in a safe environment and are not going all out on them. There are obvious differences between the water boarding that goes on in secret in a prison outside our country, and what we do to a person who has done nothing wrong and would sue you for tons of money if they get harmed.

At least you debate instead of bwock bwocking like the previous two.

Prove to me that the waterboarding techniques are different.

Originally Posted by Alric

Even still, the training does mess some people up. The vast majority of people who go through that training will tell you that water boarding is torture. You rarely find people who say they were water boarded and it was no big deal, even with them having gone through it in ideal situation.

Where do you get that? Is there a big special forces march against waterboarding this weekend?

Originally Posted by Alric

As for terrorists, there is simply never a reason to ever torture them. Not only is it illegal, as many people always point on when dealing with this topic, torture doesn't work. Torture has never been as reliable as other interrogation methods that do not involve physical pain.

The best case scenario is that your arguing for a 'questionable' torture technique. One that is so horrible people break down quickly and tell you anything you want to get out of it, even if it isn't true(hence the unreliable part).

It is not torture, and it does work. We have used it THREE times, the assholes were terrorist leaders, and we got life saving information out of them all three times. It DOES work.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

You have to get off of this.

This thread is about whether or not "U.S. style" waterboarding is torture, not about how anyone feels about the terrorist attacks. I've noticed that every conversation, that has anything to do with terrorism, you want to turn into a discussion about how much we hate the terrorists. Please stay on topic.

I bring it up once in a while as a side note. It is refreshing to see the people I debate on how the poor terrorists are treated show some hatred once in a while for the terrorists. When the hate is directed LITERALLY 100% at the United States (always from my opponents, on this site, not just in the particular threads), I can't help but get suspicious.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

And, on topic, explain to me again how waterboarding is analogous to trial, with respect to the process and physiological effects.

You're joking, right? If not, then why haven't you been reading my posts before arguing with me? I went over it a bunch of times and got nothing but sneers, snickers, and bows. Do you have a counter now?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Again.... It's not getting up early by itself. It's the combination of getting up early when it is a real son of a bitch and going to your criminal trial. It is the combination I am talking about.

Criminal court causes heart attacks for some people, and heart attacks can kill. The mayor of Jackson, Frank Melton, died of a heart attack a few weeks ago. His criminal trial (for destroying a crack house) was about to start. He was wigged out of his mind.