Thread: "Absolutely torture."

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

That's what I was suspecting some people here might be feeling. I can't say I am all that surprised by your post. I have heard far lefties on television inadvertantly expressing frustration over the fact that the terrorists have had such failure here since 9/11, and now you are showing it. It is completely obvious to me that the element is out there. I'm sure you will be feeling that way if they ever blow up a mall while your relatives are in it. You do know that they don't return your affection, I hope. Don't think for two seconds that they appreciate your sympathy and cheering and will spare you if you are at Disney World when they want to gas it. Do you know what Stockholm Syndrome is?

What. I don't think you got the joke. Either of you.

Simply put, if waterboarding is not torture why the fuck are we using it on terrorists? And why would it have succeeded in breaking them? Are they just weak or something?

Originally Posted by RedfishBluefish

Are they just weak or something?

Yes.

Originally Posted by RedfishBluefish

What. I don't think you got the joke. Either of you.

Simply put, if waterboarding is not torture why the fuck are we using it on terrorists? And why would it have succeeded in breaking them? Are they just weak or something?

Why does the threat of arrest get people to talk? Why does the threat of prison get people to rat on drug dealers, even walk into the lion's den with a wire? Why does the threat of a traffic ticket make people drive more slowly than otherwise? Why do paddlings get most school kids acting right? Lots of major bummers are not "torture" but still can be used to control people.

Umm no that isn't true at all. We were talking about how water boarding has been declared torture all throughout history by nearly all countries. You are the one who came out of no where with the claim that the US is using a brand new form of water boarding that is different than everything else used in the past. Without even showing one piece of evidence to show that its different than any of the past water boarding. It was just a wild claim, that the US doesn't use torture, it uses a 'friendly' water boarding approch. That makes no sense at all.

The "US form of water boarding", has about as much merit as the waking up early is torture arguement. Which are close to the, "The three people didn't die from it, so it isn't painful" arguement.

Originally Posted by Alric

Umm no that isn't true at all. We were talking about how water boarding has been declared torture all throughout history by nearly all countries. You are the one who came out of no where with the claim that the US is using a brand new form of water boarding that is different than everything else used in the past. Without even showing one piece of evidence to show that its different than any of the past water boarding. It was just a wild claim, that the US doesn't use torture, it uses a 'friendly' water boarding approch. That makes no sense at all.

The "US form of water boarding", has about as much merit as the waking up early is torture arguement. Which are close to the, "The three people didn't die from it, so it isn't painful" arguement.

I didn't say anything about a brand new form of waterboarding. I just said that I am only talking about U.S. style waterboarding because I am not familiar enough with the others to take up for them. Also, pretty much this entire thread has been about U.S. waterboarding. So tell me... What psychological diagnoses have our special forces been developing as a result of their waterboarding experiences?

The terrorist attacks waterboarding is meant to prevent qualify as mass torture as well as mass murder. Does that make your blood boil too? Tell me all about it.

Its about us water boarding our enemies, not us water boarding our allies, which we do in a safe environment and are not going all out on them. There are obvious differences between the water boarding that goes on in secret in a prison outside our country, and what we do to a person who has done nothing wrong and would sue you for tons of money if they get harmed.

Even still, the training does mess some people up. The vast majority of people who go through that training will tell you that water boarding is torture. You rarely find people who say they were water boarded and it was no big deal, even with them having gone through it in ideal situation.

As for terrorists, there is simply never a reason to ever torture them. Not only is it illegal, as many people always point on when dealing with this topic, torture doesn't work. Torture has never been as reliable as other interrogation methods that do not involve physical pain.

The best case scenario is that your arguing for a 'questionable' torture technique. One that is so horrible people break down quickly and tell you anything you want to get out of it, even if it isn't true(hence the unreliable part).

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

The terrorist attacks waterboarding is meant to prevent qualify as mass torture as well as mass murder. Does that make your blood boil too? Tell me all about it.

You have to get off of this.

This thread is about whether or not "U.S. style" waterboarding is torture, not about how anyone feels about the terrorist attacks. I've noticed that every conversation, that has anything to do with terrorism, you want to turn into a discussion about how much we hate the terrorists. Please stay on topic.

And, on topic, explain to me again how waterboarding is analogous to trial, with respect to the process and physiological effects.

Originally Posted by RedfishBluefish

Of course! just wait till they get the tiniest drop of it in their mouth, then BAM! we can accuse them of drinking the Kool-Aid, and they won't be able to deny it! It's genious!

Originally Posted by sleepingdog

btw. i love you all for being so damn funny. esp you U mind. funniest so far.

I love both of you for saying that weak stuff instead of debating my points.

Originally Posted by Alric

Its about us water boarding our enemies, not us water boarding our allies, which we do in a safe environment and are not going all out on them. There are obvious differences between the water boarding that goes on in secret in a prison outside our country, and what we do to a person who has done nothing wrong and would sue you for tons of money if they get harmed.

At least you debate instead of bwock bwocking like the previous two.

Prove to me that the waterboarding techniques are different.

Originally Posted by Alric

Even still, the training does mess some people up. The vast majority of people who go through that training will tell you that water boarding is torture. You rarely find people who say they were water boarded and it was no big deal, even with them having gone through it in ideal situation.

Where do you get that? Is there a big special forces march against waterboarding this weekend?

Originally Posted by Alric

As for terrorists, there is simply never a reason to ever torture them. Not only is it illegal, as many people always point on when dealing with this topic, torture doesn't work. Torture has never been as reliable as other interrogation methods that do not involve physical pain.

The best case scenario is that your arguing for a 'questionable' torture technique. One that is so horrible people break down quickly and tell you anything you want to get out of it, even if it isn't true(hence the unreliable part).

It is not torture, and it does work. We have used it THREE times, the assholes were terrorist leaders, and we got life saving information out of them all three times. It DOES work.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

You have to get off of this.

This thread is about whether or not "U.S. style" waterboarding is torture, not about how anyone feels about the terrorist attacks. I've noticed that every conversation, that has anything to do with terrorism, you want to turn into a discussion about how much we hate the terrorists. Please stay on topic.

I bring it up once in a while as a side note. It is refreshing to see the people I debate on how the poor terrorists are treated show some hatred once in a while for the terrorists. When the hate is directed LITERALLY 100% at the United States (always from my opponents, on this site, not just in the particular threads), I can't help but get suspicious.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

And, on topic, explain to me again how waterboarding is analogous to trial, with respect to the process and physiological effects.

You're joking, right? If not, then why haven't you been reading my posts before arguing with me? I went over it a bunch of times and got nothing but sneers, snickers, and bows. Do you have a counter now?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Again.... It's not getting up early by itself. It's the combination of getting up early when it is a real son of a bitch and going to your criminal trial. It is the combination I am talking about.

Criminal court causes heart attacks for some people, and heart attacks can kill. The mayor of Jackson, Frank Melton, died of a heart attack a few weeks ago. His criminal trial (for destroying a crack house) was about to start. He was wigged out of his mind.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

It is not torture, and it does work. We have used it THREE times, the assholes were terrorist leaders, and we got life saving information out of them all three times. It DOES work.

it works nearly everytime. even when there's nothing there. that's what makes it 'unreliable'. because they'll tell you anything. how do you apologize to the guy who didn't know anything? try it in the mirror. as for your THREE times. that's a wirly spin. it's like counting the times they brought in the buckets, not the tens and hundres of times you felt like you were dying from the water poured on your face. have you heard of the Mancow experiment? google...it's no hoax.

also, our kind of torture (the US style!) was perfected by the chinese and that's were we got it from. the only reason why it's used by anyone as a torture device is because "It DOES work" as torture. it almost sounds like you argue 'there is no such thing as torture'. what is torture for you?! for the love of god dont make me read all those words!!! (think; dictionary)

ready for a test? too late...

an atom bomb is about to go off inside your house and is minutes away from blowing up the entire country. do you torture the guy who's got the code? if No, please stop here as you are dead. if Yes, thanks for saving my life, now please go plead guilty to breaking the law. i'll push for your pardon.


also, what the hell does this mean?

I think torture should be illegal and that waterboarding should only be used on known terrorist leaders.

is that like saying; 'it's illegal, except when we don't want it to be'? ???/ ? ? /a/s/??

Do you have a counter now?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

You're joking, right? If not, then why haven't you been reading my posts before arguing with me? I went over it a bunch of times and got nothing but sneers, snickers, and bows. Do you have a counter now?

Now who's joking? I've seen your "explanation" plenty of times and not only have I countered it, but I've provided documentation that counters it. So far as I can tell, you've only given your opinion on it, while stating the affects in the most minimal terms - actually giving no acknowledgement to what's really documented as happening when being waterboarded, as opposed to just what would happen if it was as tame a procedure as you seem to think it is.

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Waterboarding is a form of torture that consists of immobilizing the victim on his or her back with the head inclined downwards, and then pouring water over the face and into the breathing passages. By forced suffocation and inhalation of water, the subject experiences drowning and is caused to believe they are about to die.[1] It is considered a form of torture by legal experts,[2][3] politicians, war veterans,[4][5] medical experts in the treatment of torture victims,[6][7] intelligence officials,[8] military judges,[9] and human rights organizations.[10][11] As early as the Spanish Inquisition it was used for interrogation purposes, to punish and intimidate, and to force confessions.[12]
In contrast to submerging the head face-forward in water, waterboarding precipitates an almost immediate gag reflex.[13] The technique does not inevitably cause lasting physical damage. It can cause extreme pain, dry drowning, damage to lungs, brain damage from oxygen deprivation, other physical injuries including broken bones due to struggling against restraints, lasting psychological damage or, if uninterrupted, death.[2] Adverse physical consequences can start manifesting months after the event; psychological effects can last for years.[6]

What about that is analogous to a court trial? I ask the question again only because your perspective so far takes none of the above into consideration.