Thread: Power

Originally Posted by Unelias

I would say that if you like to control DC in your dreams or manifest the need for control in any other way, it's the same in the real life. Only that you are too afraid or incapable to fulfill your desires in real people.

That's an interesting view. Could you explain why you think so? I know I posted here that desire to control dreams is desire for power, but it was not my thought, I stole it from another thread to see what people would say about it. I don't really think so at all. In your dreams you know that it's merely a DC, a fruit of your own imagination, that makes controlling DCs very different from wielding any real power.

Originally Posted by Arutad

In your dreams you know that it's merely a DC, a fruit of your own imagination, that makes controlling DCs very different from wielding any real power.

That's exactly why you'd want to do it in a dream, and not in the real world.
Even though you can look at it like that, your brain will still see dream characters as persons. Though they have labels on such as "fake", "unreal", "imagination" on them, you still see them as a person - Or atleast your brain does.

I mean even though you know they aren't really persons, you're still controlling something that is made to represent real people.

Originally Posted by Maeni

Even though you can look at it like that, your brain will still see dream characters as persons. Though they have labels on such as "fake", "unreal", "imagination" on them, you still see them as a person - Or atleast your brain does.

That's true. And this is strange. I've been thinking it over and can't find a reason why I don't want to control DCs but want to control real people if the brain sees them as real, which it does. It makes no sense.

I think power is only a way of obtaining freedom, or even respect. I believe humans naturally thrive for freedom and respect, so lusting for power is only an obvious consequence.

Notice, however, that since it is an indirect association, one can be taught to dislike power.

Originally Posted by Arutad

That's an interesting view. Could you explain why you think so? I know I posted here that desire to control dreams is desire for power, but it was not my thought, I stole it from another thread to see what people would say about it. I don't really think so at all. In your dreams you know that it's merely a DC, a fruit of your own imagination, that makes controlling DCs very different from wielding any real power.

Although you might say that dreams are just dreams and far apart from material world, it is still you who is performing the actions. What other motives are there to seek control? Control is power, power to influence other beings or things. Why would you want to influence over a dream character then? How can you be sure that you don't actually want to do that in real life person too, if you could?

For wielding a real power... the power itself is as real as the power in waking world, but instead of other sentient beings you using the power to figments of your imagination.

But for counter question : what do you think the desire of control dreams is then?

Originally Posted by Unelias

What other motives are there to seek control? Control is power, power to influence other beings or things. Why would you want to influence over a dream character then? How can you be sure that you don't actually want to do that in real life person too, if you could?

There's no need to be uncertain about real life, I surely would want control in real life. And in this case I agree wholeheartedly that control is power, although motives for seeking power vary from person to person. But since we both call it power our motives may be rather similar, because I think people who seek it for other reasons wouldn't call it power at all.

For wielding a real power... the power itself is as real as the power in waking world, but instead of other sentient beings you using the power to figments of your imagination.

How do you get satisfaction from that?

But for counter question : what do you think the desire of control dreams is then?

No idea I never had such a desire to begin with.

Originally Posted by Arutad

There's no need to be uncertain about real life, I surely would want control in real life. And in this case I agree wholeheartedly that control is power, although motives for seeking power vary from person to person. But since we both call it power our motives may be rather similar, because I think people who seek it for other reasons wouldn't call it power at all.

Well power is merely capability after all, it is just a tool for something like Kromoh mentioned. In my case the ultimate goal is pretty much absolute freedom and independency. Motives do vary, like you said, but power as an idea doesn't contain any moral or ethical parts. People just use power whatever they feel like.

How do you get satisfaction from that?

Because my satisfaction comes from inside me. Every time I discover more things to achieve, untap more of my potential thus converting it to capability, I become more satisfied. However I have noticed that it comes with a quite high price. I constantly hunger for more and my ego strives me forward. I am very hard and unforgiving on myself.

No idea I never had such a desire to begin with.

and you never developed it? You never started to think what might be your limit in dream control, what you could possibly achieve with training and patience?

Originally Posted by Unelias

Well power is merely capability after all, it is just a tool for something like Kromoh mentioned. In my case the ultimate goal is pretty much absolute freedom and independency. Motives do vary, like you said, but power as an idea doesn't contain any moral or ethical parts. People just use power whatever they feel like.

Let's not make power so abstract It's an abstract word for capability, true, but it's telling us nothing, until we define the capability of what it is. So let's define it. As you're talking about freedom and independency, I guess what you expect from power is having means to not care for concequences of your actions. Am I right? And what kind of means, something like being able to dictate your will to others?

Every time I discover more things to achieve, untap more of my potential thus converting it to capability, I become more satisfied. However I have noticed that it comes with a quite high price. I constantly hunger for more and my ego strives me forward. I am very hard and unforgiving on myself.

To be honest I have no idea what you're talking about... You're putting it in a very abstract manner, and although it must make sense for you, for somebody who doesn't know what you're talking about that needs serious decyphering

Would you care to give a down-to-earth example?

and you never developed it? You never started to think what might be your limit in dream control, what you could possibly achieve with training and patience?

Dream control abilities, no matter how high, don't arouse any feelings of respect from me.

I don't understand why you feel competitive about it. Sure sometimes I do it out of neccesity, when an annoying DC is preventing me from doing something more sensible. But to be interested in perfecting dream control? It's pathetic I think (and I apologize for this opinion) to turn such a magnificently real thing as lucid dreaming into yet another refuge from life, into a game of pretense.

I guess what you expect from power is having means to not care for concequences of your actions. Am I right? And what kind of means, something like being able to dictate your will to others?

If you have the power you don't HAVE to care about concequences of your actions since no one can really affect you or your actions. It is still up to the person whether he wants to be reckless and indifferent about the other people, which is again a moral problem. You can have a lot of power and influence, yet you can be very responsible about using it and utilize it by altruistic manner.

For me it is not that much dictating MY will to others, it's more like preventing others from suppressing my own potential and my own actions. I am not that interested in meddling with other people or bending them under my will. There is usually no need to and I have no interest in it. But if someone is standing between my goal and tries to hold me back, I will use my power to cast him aside. If I have enough of it, that is.

That is why I respect strength. I respect people who can be what they have dreamed, who succeed and won't give up. Who persevere over anything that would normally destroy one. Who keep on going on that strange and sometimes very lonely path untill they reach the goal they have worked so hard to get to.

Here are two thoughts which I like, maybe they shed a bit more light to the subject

"A dreamer is one who can only find his way by moonlight, and his punishment is that he sees the dawn before the rest of the world."
-Oscar Wilde

This would be good clarification into my life too. Something like my motto perhaps :

Life without challenge is nothing. In such a hollowed state the difference between the absolute power and the absolute powerlessness becomes almost undetectable.

To be honest I have no idea what you're talking about... You're putting it in a very abstract manner, and although it must make sense for you, for somebody who doesn't know what you're talking about that needs serious decyphering
Would you care to give a down-to-earth example?

Yes I do understand this is very hard for others to understand. I am quite abstract man in many ways too. I find it also hard to shape my thoughts in English since I mainly operate with my native language.

I'll try my best for you.

I am very interested about human potential. What we can do and when the limit comes in to the game. I have trained many, many different things and I constantly find new things to research. But since we have limited time I become frustrated since I cannot develope myself enough, when there are so many things I am interested in learning. In short, I love learning. Too bad there is not that much of use of jack-of-all-trades nowadays, since our society is build pretty much up on people who specialise in something and master it. I don't want to limit myself to solely one thing, that would be boring, wouldn't it? I am pretty much above average in everything I have tried this far and there are areas which I am very talented.

I have noticed that when you first know bit of this and that, everything transforms a lot easier, thus hastening the learning process. With patience and training even more possibilities are found and the existing skills are honed all the time.

Now for the problem. I am pretty rough on myself when it comes to failing, especially if it is about something I should have already mastered in some degree. I don't actually care if other people fail, I am not the one who is yelling at them. Since I am into such a large diversity of subjects, it is natural that failures do occur, mostly due the lack of training. That is why I am driven forward by this.. hunger. It is my ego that demands me to continue untill I succeed. After another milestone has been reached, the hunger is sated for a while. Is this still too abstract?

Simply put, I love learning, training, developing myself, becoming stronger and more skillfull all the time. I can get carried away by my training so that I don't realise that I have been punching a sandbag for two hours straight and I drop down dead tired after the realization. I can draw eight hours without even knowing I need to eat or such. Once I got so obsessed by learning a certain song that I played guitar all night and woke up with skin all torn from my fingers.

Dream control abilities, no matter how high, don't arouse any feelings of respect from me.

For me a skill well learned is always worth of applauses. Especially if it is something not everyone is capable of and has been worked hard to get to.

I don't understand why you feel competitive about it. Sure sometimes I do it out of neccesity, when an annoying DC is preventing me from doing something more sensible. But to be interested in perfecting dream control?

Out of curioisity. What is the limit of dream control? That is my main motive. Another one is that I want to utilize my sleep time as well as I can. But the thing here is that for me dream control ability is a gauge to me how well I can control myself. It is all in my head after all, I am not influencing anybody elses mind. If I couldn't control my mind, everything would be lost.

It's pathetic I think (and I apologize for this opinion) to turn such a magnificently real thing as lucid dreaming into yet another refuge from life, into a game of pretense.

No need to apologize. People think too much of what they say in fear of hurting other people's feelings. We are exchanging thoughts after all

But I don't see it that way. It is no refuge or whatsoever for me. You could say it is like a boat. Sometimes it is fun and exiting to let it slide with the current but most of the time I want to steer it myself. Dreams are just like that. I just enjoy my sleeptime in the way I want, I don't practice escapism by trying to sleep as much as I want Actually I don't sleep that much, because the previously mentioned time-dilemma I have. But I'd like to hear more of this last comment of yours, because I didn't actually understand what it meant. Could you clarify the refuge and game of pretense part?

I hope you can get something out of this chaotical ramblings...

-Un

Originally Posted by Unelias

If you have the power you don't HAVE to care about concequences of your actions since no one can really affect you or your actions. It is still up to the person whether he wants to be reckless and indifferent about the other people, which is again a moral problem. You can have a lot of power and influence, yet you can be very responsible about using it and utilize it by altruistic manner.

How can you utilize power in an altruistic manner, can you please provide an example? I really can't think of one. Only images like feeding of the poor and making outstanding presents come to mind, but that's not really freedom in the sense as you described it, as there's no counter-action and resistance that you could use power to overcome.

This would be good clarification into my life too. Something like my motto perhaps :

Life without challenge is nothing. In such a hollowed state the difference between the absolute power and the absolute powerlessness becomes almost undetectable.

If the only thing that gives life meaning is fighting a challenge, then do you ever have time to enjoy life itself, unconditionally?

Yes I do understand this is very hard for others to understand. I am quite abstract man in many ways too. I find it also hard to shape my thoughts in English since I mainly operate with my native language.

That's a problem you get when writing online. I'm quite sure that talking would be different, you get all kinds of visual feedback in real-time and can correct your words accordingly. All we can do here is try our best to be understood by each other, despite the limitations of the written word.

I am very interested about human potential. What we can do and when the limit comes in to the game. I have trained many, many different things and I constantly find new things to research. But since we have limited time I become frustrated since I cannot develope myself enough, when there are so many things I am interested in learning.

May I ask a question: if you're interested when the limit comes into the game, then why do you switch activities? The goal and the behaviour look contradicting. If you switch frequently, then you can't discover where your limit is. Or do you manage to discover it quickly most of the time?

In short, I love learning. Too bad there is not that much of use of jack-of-all-trades nowadays, since our society is build pretty much up on people who specialise in something and master it. I don't want to limit myself to solely one thing, that would be boring, wouldn't it?

I understand you there, I dislike staying with one thing for long, too, for the same reason. But do you have permanent hobbies or permanent activities at all?

Now for the problem. I am pretty rough on myself when it comes to failing, especially if it is about something I should have already mastered in some degree. I don't actually care if other people fail, I am not the one who is yelling at them. Since I am into such a large diversity of subjects, it is natural that failures do occur, mostly due the lack of training.

That must come from your over-evaluation (from my point of view) of the challenge. Failing can be pleasant, too, can't it? If it's not, then I picture that you'd feel like all you've done for it was a waste of your time, and that's not a pleasant thought.

That is why I am driven forward by this.. hunger. It is my ego that demands me to continue untill I succeed. After another milestone has been reached, the hunger is sated for a while. Is this still too abstract?

No, not abstract anymore. But I'd like to clarify some things, as you don't seem to mind and I'm curious . Does that mean that you're performing most of your activites alone and others aren't necessarily aware of them?

Simply put, I love learning, training, developing myself, becoming stronger and more skillfull all the time.

Why? I know it's a general question, because such a general motivation in life is probably very hard to discover. But I'm very curious as to what you can say about it.

I can get carried away by my training so that I don't realise that I have been punching a sandbag for two hours straight and I drop down dead tired after the realization. I can draw eight hours without even knowing I need to eat or such. Once I got so obsessed by learning a certain song that I played guitar all night and woke up with skin all torn from my fingers.

Wow.

No need to apologize. People think too much of what they say in fear of hurting other people's feelings. We are exchanging thoughts after all

The problem with rules is that you never know whether the person you're talking to has the same ones or not. It never hurts to use the best rules, the better they are the less chances that conversing will be irrevocably distorted for reasons incomprehensible to you.

I just enjoy my sleeptime in the way I want, I don't practice escapism by trying to sleep as much as I want Actually I don't sleep that much, because the previously mentioned time-dilemma I have.

You really don't sound like a power-monger. Maybe it's me who has too strict connotations for this word, but you do not sound like somebody who practices dream-control for power to me.

But I'd like to hear more of this last comment of yours, because I didn't actually understand what it meant. Could you clarify the refuge and game of pretense part?

It was my guess about people's motivations. When they say that controlling DCs is power, then what does it mean? I make a guess that maybe they can't control people in real life, so they use lucid dreams for this purpose. In this way it's a pretense refuge from "bad" life without power over people.

I may be stretching it too far. And almost for sure I am. But in the forum an in-depth conversation is rarely happening, so you have to make very generalizing guesses.