Power

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07-14-2009, 11:05 PM
Xei

Power

Why do so many people lust for power?

I cannot understand it at all, I find it utterly absurd. Can anybody explain it to me?

What even is power? It is utterly immaterial. Hitler rose steadily up through the ranks and eventually took control of most of Europe, but for what? You can tell people to do stuff. Great. How does that make you happy? What does it achieve?

Is it a knee-jerk reaction against nihilism? Something built in biologically?

Almost every single politician at the fore seems to suffer from exactly the same lust, and as a result they continually make idiotic, careerist decisions to the detriment of society, and the pointlessness of it all makes me mad. It would be so easy to turn everything around, the vital decisions for the whole of society are so obvious, and yet nobody makes them, because everybody who can make a difference suffers from this ridiculous myopia.

Just why?
07-14-2009, 11:27 PM
tehpwner

Everyone achieves an emotional response from different things. For example, someone may find that giving food to the poor gives them a deep satisfaction. Some people may feel deeply satisfied by swimming 50 laps around a pool. And some people may feel deeply satisfied by controlling other people.
07-15-2009, 12:07 AM
Invader

I have ideas, but I am uncertain about all of them. Some hunger for power out of deeply embedded feelings of inferiority. Others hunger because they feel uncomfortable in situations they have little to no control over, so they attempt to obtain as much control as possible. That's not all of the story though, and I don't have the answer. It could have been that it developed as a social-survival mechanism in which the control over resources in the group meant having the opportunity to mate more than any other member, and therefor have the greatest success rate of passing on your genes. Does that sound logical? It is a primitive, savage way of thinking, as power comes at the expense of others.

I agree, by the way. The will to dominate is turned into a sort of game, and those who engage in it demonstrate irresponsibility and reckless, harmful behavior toward others, even if done subtly.
07-15-2009, 02:39 AM
Xei

Issues which disturb me specifically are the complete disregard for the long-term welfare of the country that politicians are showing where I live, in Britain.

I have never seen a single politician talk about any issue which is not immediately relevant; however these issues are the ones which are extremely crucial.

In particular there is our dependence on crude, which very soon is going to become scarce. There is simply no infrastructure in place to cope with any disruption at all, and when it really starts to hurt, it's going to be far too late. I'm predicting some severe social disruption whilst I'm still young.

The amount of electrical power generated by renewables is currently less than 1%, which is absolutely appalling, as we have some very fortuitous conditions; there's a single dam we could build over that Severn Estuary which could generate something like 5% of our power. 5 percent! But nobody in government gives a toss, because by the time it starts to matter, their political careers will have come to an end.

The Prime Minister's reckless spending of our country's accumulated wealth in times of economic health so as to manufacture a boom and so get him the title is another case of somebody further crippling the country for entirely selfish reasons - he did it for personal power, and that was it. And now, surprise surprise, everybody hates him. Why are people this stupid?? Why would you put yourself in that position?
07-15-2009, 04:04 AM
Vampyre

"First, you gotta get the money. Then when you got the money, you get the power. Then when you get the power, you get the women." - Al Pacino, Scarface

With enough power, you get whatever you want. Without any power, you don't get much of you want.

EDIT: As for politics... I'm not really involved in anything political, so I don't really know.
07-15-2009, 04:43 AM
Invader

I know, Xei, and I hear you on the renewables and what's going to go down when our current infrastructure begins to starve. The oil industry has much influence when it comes to political affairs. Who do you think funds the candidates? Well, I don't know the details about political workings in the UK, but the way it works out here is that candidates are backed by corporate entities that want their interests protected. Corporate interests are never public interests. We both know that, though.

Although this is a bit of a side note, I feel it's important to point out that dams are particularly harmful to both the life sustaining capabilities of the river and to the nutritional gain of the surrounding land. There's more, I know, but there's no need to go on about it. We still have wind and solar as viable options too, and perhaps geothermal, but I'm still not clear about any potential long term ramifications about widespread use of the technology (if there are any).
07-17-2009, 03:10 AM
DrunkenArse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xei

Issues which disturb me specifically are the complete disregard for the long-term welfare of the country that politicians are showing where I live, in Britain.

I have never seen a single politician talk about any issue which is not immediately relevant; however these issues are the ones which are extremely crucial.

This is about maintaining power obviously. If one party isn't busy exploiting short term problems for gaining power, they are busy countering another parties attempt to do so. Somebody talking about a serious long term issue that can be dealt with "later" is going to be slaughtered in popularity by a serious short term threat, or short term hype if the population isn't educated enough to tell the difference. That just begs the question though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xei

In particular there is our dependence on crude, which very soon is going to become scarce. There is simply no infrastructure in place to cope with any disruption at all, and when it really starts to hurt, it's going to be far too late. I'm predicting some severe social disruption whilst I'm still young.

This is the above effect and political corruption working in concert, straight up.

I think that the primary reason for the lust for power is the instinct for social influence that is present in pretty much all social mammals, though perhaps not all individuals within a particular species. I see no other reason for it that convinces me as being able to stand on its own. To be sure, other forces can exacerbate the situation but I think that they would be pretty powerless and easily spotted in the absence of this core cause. Regardless of what the politicians do, the populace tolerates it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Invader

Although this is a bit of a side note, I feel it's important to point out that dams are particularly harmful to both the life sustaining capabilities of the river and to the nutritional gain of the surrounding land.

Although it is a bit of a side note, I'll second that. It's especially important because estuaries are critical breeding grounds for the marine ecosystem and once we get our heavy metals under control (they're blown out of proportion as it is, but the situation is still far less than ideal), the marine ecosystem will be critical in providing healthy, environmentally sound meat to a larger populace.
07-17-2009, 03:47 AM
Liz

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xei

Why do so many people lust for power?

I cannot understand it at all, I find it utterly absurd. Can anybody explain it to me?

There is a strong correlation between the amount of sex hormone an individual produces (estrogen/testosterone) and their need for power and dominance. This was clinical proven by testing the amount of sex hormone in the saliva of individuals . Test subjects were placed in a clinical setting where they were forced to participate in a dominance contest. Their sex hormone level in the saliva was tested before and after. The individuals who had previously tested that they had a higher need for dominance showed that after a laboratory dominance contest their sex hormone level rose =higher power/dominance motivation was correlated with higher sex hormone..So, there is a biological cause for this “need for dominance” in some people.

Twenty-five percent of the the civilized world is on estrogen birth control pills and this estrogen eventually makes it to your water supply through the process of elimination. Soooooooo, you guys can rest assured that with all the estrogen you are drinking.....women will control the earth very soon ....hehe.
07-17-2009, 09:00 AM
Invader

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liz

and this estrogen eventually makes it to your water supply through the process of elimination.

How exactly does a logical tool for reasoning move estrogen into the water supply?
Speak, you.
07-17-2009, 04:20 PM
Black_Eagle

Quote:

Originally Posted by Invader

How exactly does a logical tool for reasoning move estrogen into the water supply?
Speak, you.

From what I've heard, some of the estrogen in women's urine doesn't get caught by the sewage plant and actually does wind up in our water. I wonder if this applies to home filters as well.
07-17-2009, 04:25 PM
grasshoppa

I used to know an excellent quote regarding power. It went something along the lines of:

"men don't wish to accumulate power, they wish to emanate it"
07-17-2009, 09:24 PM
Invader

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black_Eagle

From what I've heard, some of the estrogen in women's urine doesn't get caught by the sewage plant and actually does wind up in our water. I wonder if this applies to home filters as well.

Google certainly does turn up its slew of results, and not just for estrogen, but for other pharmaceuticals as well. A lot of it looks like "I read a study" or "I heard this", so I'm still just trying to find a credible source. There are a few news sites I've never heard of, and I can't find any sources for their information.

Talk about going off on a tangent. If it contributes to the thread any, estrogen reduces violent impulses. Those impulses may lead one to seek dominant positions in their societies, you know.
07-17-2009, 09:39 PM
Exhalent

People like to control things, the more they have a say, the better. It is a combination of greed, ignorance, fear, envy, and fantasy. I found an interesting article that may help understand.

And an appropriate quote:
"Every tyrant who has lived has believed in freedom - for himself."
-Elbert Hubbard
07-17-2009, 11:23 PM
Keresztanya

Plain estrogen in the water supply would be too dilluted to do anything, and it would have little effects without blocking testosterone even if it was more concentrated.
07-18-2009, 12:49 AM
Howie

Power is control. The ego thrives on power. Control = power. In most of us there is some longing for control.
Some have an obsession over control. The more power you have the more control you obtain.
Unfortunately government is power.

Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I was not aware of what rules that estrogen and testosterone play. What is your source?

Kim Jong-il acting on which one? :P
07-18-2009, 02:56 PM
Liz

References for biology/genetic affect on the need for power/dominance:

http://www.ns.umich.edu/htdocs/relea...ry.php?id=6524

http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/homep...htaJosephs.pdf

Reference for environmental estrogen affecting men:

http://www.som.tulane.edu/cbr/ecme/e...sics/eeeffects

Scroll way down to find the estrogen study on this one:
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:...&client=safari
-----------------------------------------------
07-19-2009, 09:50 AM
Unelias

The most interesting question. Actually this is the one problem I have been pondering for many years now. I tend to think that it is something that is build inside us and is very human-like, whether some people restrain the lust or are simply too weak to ever get that power. For me it seems very typical for humans that every one of us desires to carve their own way through this world and hopefully leave something behind. That is of course meaningless, because there is no reason to leave anything behind if you, as being, will ultimately perish.

I must admit that strength and power plays a very important role in my life, or more accuratetly, capability. Our lives are determined by things we are capable of. We are after all egoistic, we want to be more than the other people. Controlling people doesn't give me satisfaction, I despise people who go around saying other people what to do. For me power is the ability to do what you like, in spite of what the odds are or what those annoying other people try to make you do.

For politics, I despise them too as general. Just a large scale farce that unfortunatetly has grown way too important for the world. Nothing good can come out of scenario where the indifferent incapable elect the ambitious incapable to do the impossible.The only problem is that those elected get the keys to destroy the current world with couple words. I am greatly interested who the hell votes for Obama, for example? I am not commenting about his capability, skill or him as person at all, I am just saying that what makes people vote for him. You could replace Obama for any other politician in that sentence, it doesn't matter. I am more interested in the chains of events that lead to the current situation than the mere situation itself. What have they done to extremely large masses of people to have those people vote for them? Why they want to raise one person to rule them all? Is it because they are so weak themselves and hope this one will be capable enough to correct the wrongs?
07-19-2009, 02:51 PM
Maeni

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exhalent

And an appropriate quote:
"Every tyrant who has lived has believed in freedom - for himself."
-Elbert Hubbard

Mhehh. That's true for so many people.
"Freedom of Speech!! Atleast untill somebody disagrees with me."

About power, I don't think I have any huge desire for power over anyone other than myself.
But that is, what it is. Or can be.
It's a common argument that child molesters molest children because they lack power and/or control in some aspect in their own life, so they seek to have this control over something or someone that is easier to handle than whatever it is they can't control.

Maybe politicians are insecure, powerless people who seek power over others for that reason :3

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unelias

I must admit that strength and power plays a very important role in my life, or more accuratetly, capability. Our lives are determined by things we are capable of. We are after all egoistic, we want to be more than the other people. Controlling people doesn't give me satisfaction, I despise people who go around saying other people what to do. For me power is the ability to do what you like, in spite of what the odds are or what those annoying other people try to make you do.

For politics, I despise them too as general. Just a large scale farce that unfortunatetly has grown way too important for the world. Nothing good can come out of scenario where the indifferent incapable elect the ambitious incapable to do the impossible.The only problem is that those elected get the keys to destroy the current world with couple words. I am greatly interested who the hell votes for Obama, for example? I am not commenting about his capability, skill or him as person at all, I am just saying that what makes people vote for him. You could replace Obama for any other politician in that sentence, it doesn't matter. I am more interested in the chains of events that lead to the current situation than the mere situation itself. What have they done to extremely large masses of people to have those people vote for them? Why they want to raise one person to rule them all? Is it because they are so weak themselves and hope this one will be capable enough to correct the wrongs?

I think I agree with this O_ o
07-19-2009, 06:54 PM
Vampyre

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unelias

For politics, I despise them too as general. Just a large scale farce that unfortunatetly has grown way too important for the world. Nothing good can come out of scenario where the indifferent incapable elect the ambitious incapable to do the impossible.The only problem is that those elected get the keys to destroy the current world with couple words. I am greatly interested who the hell votes for Obama, for example? I am not commenting about his capability, skill or him as person at all, I am just saying that what makes people vote for him. You could replace Obama for any other politician in that sentence, it doesn't matter. I am more interested in the chains of events that lead to the current situation than the mere situation itself. What have they done to extremely large masses of people to have those people vote for them? Why they want to raise one person to rule them all? Is it because they are so weak themselves and hope this one will be capable enough to correct the wrongs?

It's good to have a leader. It's a face that people can trust and rely on. Someone to look to for answers. Without a leader, people fragment away from each other. It's the leader's job to try and hold everybody together. Granted this isn't always exactly what a president is or does, but it's what they represent - leadership.

Also, ultimately, it's not one person's (the president) rule per se. The president has many advisors, including the Senate. You can't expect one person to know everything and always know what is best. This was realized a long time ago, and is the purpose for the creation of the president's cabinet. Remember too that, the senate also votes for the president, not just the public. If you think that the president and senate are "incapable" of the tasks that they perform, then that's rather ignorant of you to say. It's not like any asshole can walk in off the street and get elected.

Conclusively, people simply desire to have a leader, in hopes that they will either know what is best, or know who to talk to, in order to find out what is best.
07-19-2009, 07:47 PM
Unelias

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vampyre

It's good to have a leader. It's a face that people can trust and rely on. Someone to look to for answers. Without a leader, people fragment away from each other. It's the leader's job to try and hold everybody together. Granted this isn't always exactly what a president is or does, but it's what they represent - leadership.

Also, ultimately, it's not one person's (the president) rule per se. The president has many advisors, including the Senate. You can't expect one person to know everything and always know what is best. This was realized a long time ago, and is the purpose for the creation of the president's cabinet. Remember too that, the senate also votes for the president, not just the public. If you think that the president and senate are "incapable" of the tasks that they perform, then that's rather ignorant of you to say. It's not like any asshole can walk in off the street and get elected.

Conclusively, people simply desire to have a leader, in hopes that they will either know what is best, or know who to talk to, in order to find out what is best.

I don't desire to have a leader or someone who decides things over me. I don't believe in communities/ goverments or think they are the best solution. Granted, masses long for leader, for someone who can smile and say everything will be all right. The problem is that this person hardly is worth of such power. No man is. Even if you split it amongs the senate or what ever it doesn't even come near the right to lead so many. Include corruption. all those lies and deceptions and you have a delicious looking cake, which has blood and flesh inside it.

I agree in one thing though. The cause of this horrible state we are in. It is hope. People always want to believe that things will be right. They want to trust for a handful of people they know absolutely nothing about. For me, that is ignorant and stupid.
07-19-2009, 08:23 PM
Vampyre

So... you support anarchy? You think we'd be better off without any sustained form of government?
07-22-2009, 05:23 PM
Unelias

No I am not an anarchist. I don't know if you are familiar what is the difference between political nihilism and anarchism. Nihilism doesn't offer anything in return, it just wants to destroy the existing. I don't believe in any system, but more I despise the one where someone tries to restrict me.

Quote:

You think we'd be better off without any sustained form of government?

Considering the nature of humans and the fact that most of us cannot stand the idea of surviving alone let alone succeed in it, humans would always try and create some kind of goverment, which is destined to be destroyed. Like the previous one. There is no such thing as sustained form when we think far enough.

The reason why I don't have faith in any form of goverment is because ultimatetly it forces masses of people in the same form, thus limiting freedom. Religion, politics, moral code, traditions... They are all systems, which I consider false. They are just creations of humans, therefore I have no need or desire to work under them. I am human myself, there is no need for me to bow down to the creation of another human, unless that human has more power than me. In that case he will force me. Here is the difference between the strong and the weak. When two forces are put against the one that has more power will reign and remain. In order to untap the potential we need to get rid of the most restricting factor called order. In chaos can the true potential be released, when no restricting factors occur. Also, chaos is a lot more interesting since nothing can be predicted in advance. A lot more lively than stiff traditions, which people obey just because this has been done for aeons already.
07-22-2009, 05:31 PM
Techno

You ask why, I ask why not? The opportunity brings the desire, as rejection brings limitation. It's common urges, unconscious at best. Only those that see them can control them, for better or for worse. The famous ones are the ones who can see and pluck the strings. Architects of power and society are no more artists and musicians for nature itself.
07-22-2009, 06:32 PM
dreamingofdreaming

IMMORTALITY. Everyone wants immortality, to live on forever, to be remembered for eternity. How do you gain immortality? You have to be remembered. How do you get remembered? You make a lasting effect on as many people as possible. How do you achieve this in a short amount of time? You convince the naive and control the stubborn. And how do you do this? Through POWER.

Power = Immortality. Whether you're remembered for the good or for the bad you want to be remembered, forever, in whatever way possible.

When humanity can drop the ego then and only then will power become obsolete.
07-22-2009, 06:46 PM
Universal Mind

It goes back to the days when our ancestors were apes in the jungle and even way back further than that. Even dogs have the same issues. The more power an ape has in a group, the safer he is. He gets first rights to food and has the other apes taking up for him in a heartbeat. For some monkeys, the most powerful gets to sleep in the middle of the group on a branch. A lot of benefits come with power in the wild. Thus, the will for power evolved.

Plus, with modern humans, power allows access to money, freedom, protection, and great sex. It's just too bad that the people who have the most of it generally are way too neurotic and crazy to really enjoy what they have.
07-23-2009, 03:32 PM
Arutad

Desire to control dreams is desire for power.
07-23-2009, 03:33 PM
DrunkenArse

Not power over others though.
07-24-2009, 12:38 AM
Howie

Thanks for the references Liz -- although I ahve yet to read them. :P

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned

Not power over others though.

To desire the control of a dream character would be a very similar implication...no?
07-24-2009, 11:12 AM
Unelias

I would say that if you like to control DC in your dreams or manifest the need for control in any other way, it's the same in the real life. Only that you are too afraid or incapable to fulfill your desires in real people.

People long for control and power. I think there are moments in every one's lives when they want to be the strongest man or woman in the world. It's totally logical and acceptable. Only a handful of people keep on pushing that desire untill they become powerful enough.
07-27-2009, 05:56 AM
Arutad

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unelias

I would say that if you like to control DC in your dreams or manifest the need for control in any other way, it's the same in the real life. Only that you are too afraid or incapable to fulfill your desires in real people.

That's an interesting view. Could you explain why you think so? I know I posted here that desire to control dreams is desire for power, but it was not my thought, I stole it from another thread to see what people would say about it. I don't really think so at all. In your dreams you know that it's merely a DC, a fruit of your own imagination, that makes controlling DCs very different from wielding any real power.
07-27-2009, 03:41 PM
Maeni

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arutad

In your dreams you know that it's merely a DC, a fruit of your own imagination, that makes controlling DCs very different from wielding any real power.

That's exactly why you'd want to do it in a dream, and not in the real world.
Even though you can look at it like that, your brain will still see dream characters as persons. Though they have labels on such as "fake", "unreal", "imagination" on them, you still see them as a person - Or atleast your brain does.

I mean even though you know they aren't really persons, you're still controlling something that is made to represent real people.
07-28-2009, 04:12 PM
Unelias

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arutad

That's an interesting view. Could you explain why you think so? I know I posted here that desire to control dreams is desire for power, but it was not my thought, I stole it from another thread to see what people would say about it. I don't really think so at all. In your dreams you know that it's merely a DC, a fruit of your own imagination, that makes controlling DCs very different from wielding any real power.

Although you might say that dreams are just dreams and far apart from material world, it is still you who is performing the actions. What other motives are there to seek control? Control is power, power to influence other beings or things. Why would you want to influence over a dream character then? How can you be sure that you don't actually want to do that in real life person too, if you could?

For wielding a real power... the power itself is as real as the power in waking world, but instead of other sentient beings you using the power to figments of your imagination.

But for counter question : what do you think the desire of control dreams is then? :)
07-30-2009, 09:32 AM
Arutad

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maeni

Even though you can look at it like that, your brain will still see dream characters as persons. Though they have labels on such as "fake", "unreal", "imagination" on them, you still see them as a person - Or atleast your brain does.

That's true. And this is strange. I've been thinking it over and can't find a reason why I don't want to control DCs but want to control real people if the brain sees them as real, which it does. It makes no sense.
07-30-2009, 09:41 AM
Kromoh

I think power is only a way of obtaining freedom, or even respect. I believe humans naturally thrive for freedom and respect, so lusting for power is only an obvious consequence.

Notice, however, that since it is an indirect association, one can be taught to dislike power.
07-30-2009, 09:42 AM
Arutad

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unelias

What other motives are there to seek control? Control is power, power to influence other beings or things. Why would you want to influence over a dream character then? How can you be sure that you don't actually want to do that in real life person too, if you could?

There's no need to be uncertain about real life, I surely would want control in real life. And in this case I agree wholeheartedly that control is power, although motives for seeking power vary from person to person. But since we both call it power our motives may be rather similar, because I think people who seek it for other reasons wouldn't call it power at all.

Quote:

For wielding a real power... the power itself is as real as the power in waking world, but instead of other sentient beings you using the power to figments of your imagination.

How do you get satisfaction from that?

Quote:

But for counter question : what do you think the desire of control dreams is then? :)

No idea I never had such a desire to begin with. :)
07-31-2009, 04:04 PM
Unelias

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arutad

There's no need to be uncertain about real life, I surely would want control in real life. And in this case I agree wholeheartedly that control is power, although motives for seeking power vary from person to person. But since we both call it power our motives may be rather similar, because I think people who seek it for other reasons wouldn't call it power at all.

Well power is merely capability after all, it is just a tool for something like Kromoh mentioned. In my case the ultimate goal is pretty much absolute freedom and independency. Motives do vary, like you said, but power as an idea doesn't contain any moral or ethical parts. People just use power whatever they feel like.

Quote:

How do you get satisfaction from that?

Because my satisfaction comes from inside me. Every time I discover more things to achieve, untap more of my potential thus converting it to capability, I become more satisfied. However I have noticed that it comes with a quite high price. I constantly hunger for more and my ego strives me forward. I am very hard and unforgiving on myself.

Quote:

No idea I never had such a desire to begin with. :)

and you never developed it? You never started to think what might be your limit in dream control, what you could possibly achieve with training and patience? :)
07-31-2009, 06:56 PM
Arutad

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unelias

Well power is merely capability after all, it is just a tool for something like Kromoh mentioned. In my case the ultimate goal is pretty much absolute freedom and independency. Motives do vary, like you said, but power as an idea doesn't contain any moral or ethical parts. People just use power whatever they feel like.

Let's not make power so abstract :) It's an abstract word for capability, true, but it's telling us nothing, until we define the capability of what it is. So let's define it. As you're talking about freedom and independency, I guess what you expect from power is having means to not care for concequences of your actions. Am I right? And what kind of means, something like being able to dictate your will to others?

Quote:

Every time I discover more things to achieve, untap more of my potential thus converting it to capability, I become more satisfied. However I have noticed that it comes with a quite high price. I constantly hunger for more and my ego strives me forward. I am very hard and unforgiving on myself.

To be honest I have no idea what you're talking about... You're putting it in a very abstract manner, and although it must make sense for you, for somebody who doesn't know what you're talking about that needs serious decyphering :)

Would you care to give a down-to-earth example?

Quote:

and you never developed it? You never started to think what might be your limit in dream control, what you could possibly achieve with training and patience? :)

Dream control abilities, no matter how high, don't arouse any feelings of respect from me.

I don't understand why you feel competitive about it. Sure sometimes I do it out of neccesity, when an annoying DC is preventing me from doing something more sensible. But to be interested in perfecting dream control? It's pathetic I think (and I apologize for this opinion) to turn such a magnificently real thing as lucid dreaming into yet another refuge from life, into a game of pretense.
08-01-2009, 10:27 AM
Unelias

Quote:

I guess what you expect from power is having means to not care for concequences of your actions. Am I right? And what kind of means, something like being able to dictate your will to others?

If you have the power you don't HAVE to care about concequences of your actions since no one can really affect you or your actions. It is still up to the person whether he wants to be reckless and indifferent about the other people, which is again a moral problem. You can have a lot of power and influence, yet you can be very responsible about using it and utilize it by altruistic manner.

For me it is not that much dictating MY will to others, it's more like preventing others from suppressing my own potential and my own actions. I am not that interested in meddling with other people or bending them under my will. There is usually no need to and I have no interest in it. But if someone is standing between my goal and tries to hold me back, I will use my power to cast him aside. If I have enough of it, that is.

That is why I respect strength. I respect people who can be what they have dreamed, who succeed and won't give up. Who persevere over anything that would normally destroy one. Who keep on going on that strange and sometimes very lonely path untill they reach the goal they have worked so hard to get to.

Here are two thoughts which I like, maybe they shed a bit more light to the subject :)

"A dreamer is one who can only find his way by moonlight, and his punishment is that he sees the dawn before the rest of the world."
-Oscar Wilde

This would be good clarification into my life too. Something like my motto perhaps :

Life without challenge is nothing. In such a hollowed state the difference between the absolute power and the absolute powerlessness becomes almost undetectable.

Quote:

To be honest I have no idea what you're talking about... You're putting it in a very abstract manner, and although it must make sense for you, for somebody who doesn't know what you're talking about that needs serious decyphering
Would you care to give a down-to-earth example?

Yes I do understand this is very hard for others to understand. I am quite abstract man in many ways too. I find it also hard to shape my thoughts in English since I mainly operate with my native language.

I'll try my best for you. :)

I am very interested about human potential. What we can do and when the limit comes in to the game. I have trained many, many different things and I constantly find new things to research. But since we have limited time I become frustrated since I cannot develope myself enough, when there are so many things I am interested in learning. In short, I love learning. Too bad there is not that much of use of jack-of-all-trades nowadays, since our society is build pretty much up on people who specialise in something and master it. I don't want to limit myself to solely one thing, that would be boring, wouldn't it? I am pretty much above average in everything I have tried this far and there are areas which I am very talented.

I have noticed that when you first know bit of this and that, everything transforms a lot easier, thus hastening the learning process. With patience and training even more possibilities are found and the existing skills are honed all the time.

Now for the problem. I am pretty rough on myself when it comes to failing, especially if it is about something I should have already mastered in some degree. I don't actually care if other people fail, I am not the one who is yelling at them. Since I am into such a large diversity of subjects, it is natural that failures do occur, mostly due the lack of training. That is why I am driven forward by this.. hunger. It is my ego that demands me to continue untill I succeed. After another milestone has been reached, the hunger is sated for a while. Is this still too abstract?

Simply put, I love learning, training, developing myself, becoming stronger and more skillfull all the time. I can get carried away by my training so that I don't realise that I have been punching a sandbag for two hours straight and I drop down dead tired after the realization. I can draw eight hours without even knowing I need to eat or such. Once I got so obsessed by learning a certain song that I played guitar all night and woke up with skin all torn from my fingers.

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Dream control abilities, no matter how high, don't arouse any feelings of respect from me.

For me a skill well learned is always worth of applauses. :) Especially if it is something not everyone is capable of and has been worked hard to get to.

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I don't understand why you feel competitive about it. Sure sometimes I do it out of neccesity, when an annoying DC is preventing me from doing something more sensible. But to be interested in perfecting dream control?

Out of curioisity. What is the limit of dream control? That is my main motive. Another one is that I want to utilize my sleep time as well as I can. But the thing here is that for me dream control ability is a gauge to me how well I can control myself. It is all in my head after all, I am not influencing anybody elses mind. If I couldn't control my mind, everything would be lost. :)

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It's pathetic I think (and I apologize for this opinion) to turn such a magnificently real thing as lucid dreaming into yet another refuge from life, into a game of pretense.

No need to apologize. People think too much of what they say in fear of hurting other people's feelings. We are exchanging thoughts after all :)

But I don't see it that way. It is no refuge or whatsoever for me. You could say it is like a boat. Sometimes it is fun and exiting to let it slide with the current but most of the time I want to steer it myself. Dreams are just like that. I just enjoy my sleeptime in the way I want, I don't practice escapism by trying to sleep as much as I want :P Actually I don't sleep that much, because the previously mentioned time-dilemma I have. But I'd like to hear more of this last comment of yours, because I didn't actually understand what it meant. Could you clarify the refuge and game of pretense part? :)

I hope you can get something out of this chaotical ramblings... :)

-Un
08-01-2009, 03:06 PM
Arutad

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unelias

If you have the power you don't HAVE to care about concequences of your actions since no one can really affect you or your actions. It is still up to the person whether he wants to be reckless and indifferent about the other people, which is again a moral problem. You can have a lot of power and influence, yet you can be very responsible about using it and utilize it by altruistic manner.

How can you utilize power in an altruistic manner, can you please provide an example? I really can't think of one. Only images like feeding of the poor and making outstanding presents come to mind, but that's not really freedom in the sense as you described it, as there's no counter-action and resistance that you could use power to overcome.

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This would be good clarification into my life too. Something like my motto perhaps :

Life without challenge is nothing. In such a hollowed state the difference between the absolute power and the absolute powerlessness becomes almost undetectable.

If the only thing that gives life meaning is fighting a challenge, then do you ever have time to enjoy life itself, unconditionally?

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Yes I do understand this is very hard for others to understand. I am quite abstract man in many ways too. I find it also hard to shape my thoughts in English since I mainly operate with my native language.

That's a problem you get when writing online. I'm quite sure that talking would be different, you get all kinds of visual feedback in real-time and can correct your words accordingly. All we can do here is try our best to be understood by each other, despite the limitations of the written word.

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I am very interested about human potential. What we can do and when the limit comes in to the game. I have trained many, many different things and I constantly find new things to research. But since we have limited time I become frustrated since I cannot develope myself enough, when there are so many things I am interested in learning.

May I ask a question: if you're interested when the limit comes into the game, then why do you switch activities? The goal and the behaviour look contradicting. If you switch frequently, then you can't discover where your limit is. Or do you manage to discover it quickly most of the time?

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In short, I love learning. Too bad there is not that much of use of jack-of-all-trades nowadays, since our society is build pretty much up on people who specialise in something and master it. I don't want to limit myself to solely one thing, that would be boring, wouldn't it?

I understand you there, I dislike staying with one thing for long, too, for the same reason. But do you have permanent hobbies or permanent activities at all?

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Now for the problem. I am pretty rough on myself when it comes to failing, especially if it is about something I should have already mastered in some degree. I don't actually care if other people fail, I am not the one who is yelling at them. Since I am into such a large diversity of subjects, it is natural that failures do occur, mostly due the lack of training.

That must come from your over-evaluation (from my point of view) of the challenge. Failing can be pleasant, too, can't it? :) If it's not, then I picture that you'd feel like all you've done for it was a waste of your time, and that's not a pleasant thought.

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That is why I am driven forward by this.. hunger. It is my ego that demands me to continue untill I succeed. After another milestone has been reached, the hunger is sated for a while. Is this still too abstract?

No, not abstract anymore. But I'd like to clarify some things, as you don't seem to mind and I'm curious :). Does that mean that you're performing most of your activites alone and others aren't necessarily aware of them?

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Simply put, I love learning, training, developing myself, becoming stronger and more skillfull all the time.

Why? I know it's a general question, because such a general motivation in life is probably very hard to discover. But I'm very curious as to what you can say about it.

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I can get carried away by my training so that I don't realise that I have been punching a sandbag for two hours straight and I drop down dead tired after the realization. I can draw eight hours without even knowing I need to eat or such. Once I got so obsessed by learning a certain song that I played guitar all night and woke up with skin all torn from my fingers.

Wow. :)

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No need to apologize. People think too much of what they say in fear of hurting other people's feelings. We are exchanging thoughts after all :)

The problem with rules is that you never know whether the person you're talking to has the same ones or not. It never hurts to use the best rules, the better they are the less chances that conversing will be irrevocably distorted for reasons incomprehensible to you.

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I just enjoy my sleeptime in the way I want, I don't practice escapism by trying to sleep as much as I want :P Actually I don't sleep that much, because the previously mentioned time-dilemma I have.

You really don't sound like a power-monger. Maybe it's me who has too strict connotations for this word, but you do not sound like somebody who practices dream-control for power to me.

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But I'd like to hear more of this last comment of yours, because I didn't actually understand what it meant. Could you clarify the refuge and game of pretense part? :)

It was my guess about people's motivations. When they say that controlling DCs is power, then what does it mean? I make a guess that maybe they can't control people in real life, so they use lucid dreams for this purpose. In this way it's a pretense refuge from "bad" life without power over people.

I may be stretching it too far. And almost for sure I am. But in the forum an in-depth conversation is rarely happening, so you have to make very generalizing guesses.
08-01-2009, 05:30 PM
Unelias

Quote:

How can you utilize power in an altruistic manner, can you please provide an example? I really can't think of one. Only images like feeding of the poor and making outstanding presents come to mind, but that's not really freedom in the sense as you described it, as there's no counter-action and resistance that you could use power to overcome.

As I said, for me power represents only the possibility of carrying on the action you desire, when it is hindered by anything, be it other human, nature or odds. Doesn't the idea of Voltaire's enlightened monarchy sound like altruistic, for example? There the power is used in the good of many. Not that I think there could be that sophisticated leader anyways. I am not fan of any form of goverment as said before. But it is quite simple. Just use your influence and means to help as many as you can.

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If the only thing that gives life meaning is fighting a challenge, then do you ever have time to enjoy life itself, unconditionally?

For my point of view, life doesn't have any greater meaning. We are born, we live, we wither, we die. Just make the journey as pleasant as you can so you can die without regrets. I don't want to have an easy, normal life. For me life is a challenge, an adventure or nothing. Some people just like to live there face against the blowing wind :) it keeps me awake and interested. But for clarification, I do enjoy life time to time :) I just have very pessimistic view about world and mankind.

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That's a problem you get when writing online. I'm quite sure that talking would be different, you get all kinds of visual feedback in real-time and can correct your words accordingly. All we can do here is try our best to be understood by each other, despite the limitations of the written word.

Yes sadly, we don't have the possibility for that at the moment, so let us continue decryphing letters written one after another :)

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May I ask a question: if you're interested when the limit comes into the game, then why do you switch activities? The goal and the behaviour look contradicting. If you switch frequently, then you can't discover where your limit is. Or do you manage to discover it quickly most of the time?

I need to form the basis of my skillset now, constantly evaluate my progress and trying to find the best way to learn each thing. So you could say I am at the moment honing more the actual learning process than the mere skills themselves. In the progress I drop out the things I have found unnecessary or waste of time and earmark the ones I am going to focus. For example I have had periods when I have focused solely on art and left almost anything else for like months. I get carried away by the inspiration of learning so I can train that one skill for whole day, for weeks untill I line down the basics and understand it better. Then I can cut the training for smaller amounts and starting other activities again.

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I understand you there, I dislike staying with one thing for long, too, for the same reason. But do you have permanent hobbies or permanent activities at all?

I do. I do have my permanent areas, which include martial arts, security, art, literature, music, philosophy, psychology, history, poetry, massaging... list is quite long and yes it consumes much of my time. The fun factor is that I am not that interested in the things most of the people are. For example, I almost breathe martial arts but I cannot stand sports, excluding couple of them.

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That must come from your over-evaluation (from my point of view) of the challenge. Failing can be pleasant, too, can't it? If it's not, then I picture that you'd feel like all you've done for it was a waste of your time, and that's not a pleasant thought.

From over-evaluation and from tremendous goals and deadlines I put for myself. Yes, failing can be "pleasant" in some sense, but for me it is just another chance for insight and fixing my actions and major motivator. Failing is just product of too little training or training done incorrectly. :)

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No, not abstract anymore. But I'd like to clarify some things, as you don't seem to mind and I'm curious . Does that mean that you're performing most of your activites alone and others aren't necessarily aware of them?

Curiosity is a great thing :) you can ask whatever you like but depending of the question you might not get the answer on this thread. Yes, you are quite correct in major sense. I don't like team games or team projects since my ways of operating are very unique and I grow weary of trying to explain myself to others. I can do that, but I just like acting alone. For example, I like solo activites since you can be 100% sure it was your fault. Nobody is accusing others for the failure or closing them off the game, if you know what I mean. And yes, most of the people are very surprised of the things I know and can do, especially if I am surpassing them in someone they have solely specialised. Not even people who know me the best know even the half of the things I have done or tried. There is just too much to be told in a reasonable time :)

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Why? I know it's a general question, because such a general motivation in life is probably very hard to discover. But I'm very curious as to what you can say about it.

Good question. There are some things you cannot fully explain in sensible way. I think it is curioisity, strange as it sounds, it is the main motivator for me. Maybe I am seeking some kind of truth, maybe I think I'll discover something that shakes my worldview or then I just want to experience differents things, prepare me for any situation so I can survive. Perhaps it is some kind of self-esteem problem from the childhood that forces me to become better. I haven't pinpointed it yet. But succeeding gives me great satisfaction. :)

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The problem with rules is that you never know whether the person you're talking to has the same ones or not. It never hurts to use the best rules, the better they are the less chances that conversing will be irrevocably distorted for reasons incomprehensible to you.

A quite polite and sophisticated thought. Politeness is good. But as this moment forward you don't have to care about any of those rules when writing to me :) there is nothing you could say that could hurt me.

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You really don't sound like a power-monger. Maybe it's me who has too strict connotations for this word, but you do not sound like somebody who practices dream-control for power to me.

People usually think that power corrupts, which might be usually the case. I don't know what it does for me since I have always been quite free from all moral codes or such. But I really use dreams for insight, to research myself for better understanding. Of course, it gives me more power, more self-awareness and confidence. I don't know if you are aware but fighting alone against everyone and their opinions can be soulshattering experience. When they asked at the 2nd grade what is most important thing for us, I was the only one who voted for freedom. Everybody else's pick was family, friends or love and such. By no means I don't want to bash them down, but for me, without freedom those all are quite meaningless. Like them, I have the right for an opinion, isn't that right :) so I have been somehow on this track from very, very young age.

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It was my guess about people's motivations. When they say that controlling DCs is power, then what does it mean? I make a guess that maybe they can't control people in real life, so they use lucid dreams for this purpose. In this way it's a pretense refuge from "bad" life without power over people.

Might be true for someone, but I hardly think it is for me. I do have power and means to control other people, I am good at recognising feelings and intentions and I know how to manipulate them. But just because you have the power, it doesn't you have the will to use it.
Did you know that there is a psychology research and theory that dream's purpose is actually to act as a survival simulator to prepare humans for different situations, social or otherwise? Just a theory, but it is a strange idea to be pondered.

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I may be stretching it too far. And almost for sure I am. But in the forum an in-depth conversation is rarely happening, so you have to make very generalizing guesses.

Well generalisation is the way to pinpoint the actual problem and narrow it, so no stress over that :)
08-02-2009, 08:34 PM
Arutad

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unelias

But it is quite simple. Just use your influence and means to help as many as you can.

Hmm but univeral agreements don't exist. Maybe you consider what you do help, but there are those who think that you're wrong and they don't need this help. Then you're stepping down on their freedom, no matter how altruistically you feel. What I want to say is that power can't be used for the good of many in real life, only in novels it happens like that, life in novels is too simplified. That renders an idea of "good power" to be a utopia.

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For my point of view, life doesn't have any greater meaning. We are born, we live, we wither, we die. Just make the journey as pleasant as you can so you can die without regrets. I don't want to have an easy, normal life. For me life is a challenge, an adventure or nothing. Some people just like to live there face against the blowing wind :) it keeps me awake and interested. But for clarification, I do enjoy life time to time :) I just have very pessimistic view about world and mankind.

That's quite a normal attitude, making the journey as pleasant as you can. Everybody is already doing it. :)

Making a challenge an object of pleasure is rather interesting, but I wouldn't adopt it after you. The big problem is dependance on success rate. I wouldn't want to be a slave to it. Sure everybody already depends on success rate to some extent, but I think that adopting this kind of life philosophy would put a lot more emphasis on it. And then it's a double-edged sword, and in the long run you depend on chance. If you happen to be successful you're euphoric, if you happen to fail you're miserable. That's not my idea of pleasure, pleasure must be indepenant of external circumstances :)

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I do have my permanent areas, which include martial arts, security, art, literature, music, philosophy, psychology, history, poetry, massaging...

How permanent are these permanent hobbies? I'd say that something can be called permanent if you do it at least every next day...

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Yes, failing can be "pleasant" in some sense, but for me it is just another chance for insight and fixing my actions and major motivator. Failing is just product of too little training or training done incorrectly. :)

What will you do if you fall ill seriously (say cancer) and totally fail to get cured? In a situation when you've already completely lost and you know that you can't train a little to fight it better? Won't it become a moment when your life philosophy fails?

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Not even people who know me the best know even the half of the things I have done or tried. There is just too much to be told in a reasonable time :)

:D

I have a very high opinion of myself, too, but from the looks of it, not as high as yours! :)

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A quite polite and sophisticated thought. Politeness is good.

Actually I tried to verbalize a thought in a way to hide egoism with which I thought it was reeking. I guess it succeeded too well if you call it polite :)

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But as this moment forward you don't have to care about any of those rules when writing to me :) there is nothing you could say that could hurt me.

Freedom to speak as you want is a complex matter.

Ultimately I come to a conclusion that freedom of expression doesn't exist online. Here we don't talk to people we know well, so it's mostly talking to a vague image in your head that you donned with imaginary characteristics. If I started speaking "as I want" to you, I'm sure I would not be speaking to you personally, or rather I'd be speaking to you even less than I speak to you now. That would be a "free" expression of an attitude for somebody else in past who reminds of your imaginary image, or perhaps even to people in general. But not to you.

If you remember an example of a woman venting anger from another thread, I think that speaking freely would ultimately achieve this very effect. It would call forth new irrelevant feelings totally unrelated to a person who's being talked to. Not that it isn't happening now, but trading one social mask for another makes little sense in my opinion, even if a new one pretends to be more "free". :)

What's your opinion? You said you speak freely.

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I do have power and means to control other people, I am good at recognising feelings and intentions and I know how to manipulate them. But just because you have the power, it doesn't you have the will to use it.

I disagree that manipulation is power. Let's use a usual example, you know how people point at a lady who married a rich husband and say that she has power over him? Power to make him buy her cars, houses, etc.

I think it isn't true, there's no real power involved there. Real power would be to take all those things from him without giving anything in return. What the lady used, if she was indeed intent on money and not on a man himself, was social code that enabled her to have expensive gifts in exchange for being tender and good-looking for her rich husband. That can be called wits, but not power, she merely used existing rules and didn't bend them.

Manipulation is much alike, you have to use wits, not power. Isn't that weakness when you have to resort to wits? :)

After this I need to ask you, what else do you consider power over people, except manipulation? Because we started from comparing power over people to power over DCs, and manipulating people is something that I can't very well compare in my mind to manipulating DCs.

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Did you know that there is a psychology research and theory that dream's purpose is actually to act as a survival simulator to prepare humans for different situations, social or otherwise? Just a theory, but it is a strange idea to be pondered.

Yes, only the idea itself stands little scrutiny imho. The first thing that comes to mind is people dreaming of sex, what kind of danger is it that a survival simulator is needed :D
08-08-2009, 05:40 PM
Unelias

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arutad

Hmm but univeral agreements don't exist. Maybe you consider what you do help, but there are those who think that you're wrong and they don't need this help. Then you're stepping down on their freedom, no matter how altruistically you feel. What I want to say is that power can't be used for the good of many in real life, only in novels it happens like that, life in novels is too simplified. That renders an idea of "good power" to be a utopia.

I agree with that, but I was just pointing out how the majority of people would think. I don't hold any ideas of good or evil, they are completely trivial for me. However, you could say that your intent is altruistic, which can be considered somewhat as a virtue by the majority. People just shouldn't mess with other people's affairs too much :)

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That's quite a normal attitude, making the journey as pleasant as you can. Everybody is already doing it.

It is. Still many people try to seek a greater meaning and forgot about the life itself. Why would there be anything greater than life, which enables every other action?

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Making a challenge an object of pleasure is rather interesting, but I wouldn't adopt it after you. The big problem is dependance on success rate. I wouldn't want to be a slave to it. Sure everybody already depends on success rate to some extent, but I think that adopting this kind of life philosophy would put a lot more emphasis on it. And then it's a double-edged sword, and in the long run you depend on chance. If you happen to be successful you're euphoric, if you happen to fail you're miserable. That's not my idea of pleasure, pleasure must be indepenant of external circumstances

And you definitetly should not follow it. You probably wouldn't want to get bitten by a radioactive spider just because the Spiderman got himself superpowers out of it? I just enjoy hardship and misery a lot more than others. My whole worldview is based on misery, which is occasionally brighted by joy. This doesn't, however, mean that I would feel myself miserable :) I just get bored easily, I couldn't picture myself having a stable, "normal" life in some senses. Yes, that can lead to a slavedom, in same way that you can be enslaved by freedom. If you are familiar with the idea. However I don't intend to be a slave for it. A lot of things in life are decided with dice and let's keep it that way, makes life a lot more interesting ;) let's just say that I will try to load the dices every now and then and see if I succeed. Winning a challenge or figuring out a puzzle is not my only form of pleasure though. I am very multi-dimensional person, I can be very hedonistic and on the next day I can try to seek hardship and misery.

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How permanent are these permanent hobbies? I'd say that something can be called permanent if you do it at least every next day...

Permanent in a sense that I have been doing them for at least three years leading as far as tens of years. I practice them daily if I can, but given the current situation, I have been forced to cut some of them off for a while. Annoying. :/ but yes, I believe they are considered permanent in most of the senses. At least long-term if not permanent. For example, year ago I usually read one to three books a day. I am a really fast reader so I don't have to use much of time for it and still I can get the most fun and usefulness out of it.

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What will you do if you fall ill seriously (say cancer) and totally fail to get cured? In a situation when you've already completely lost and you know that you can't train a little to fight it better? Won't it become a moment when your life philosophy fails?

No, it will be most likely the moment I will die. I see no reason why my life philosophy could fail in anyway. My no-holds-barred trainer once said this : "If you are in the ring and you get your arm broken, you punch him with your another arm. If her brokes that too, you will kick him to the ground. If he brokes your knees, you will bash him unconscious with your forehead." If my legs wouldn't work anymore I can still write, read, play, draw... If my arms get disabled, I can still read and think. That is just the moment dices roll a bad number :) I can think a lot more philosophies that will actually fail once you get incurable cancer than mine. For me death is unavoidable and natural part of life, which can happen any moment. I feel quite inpassionate about life and death as a whole. When I cease to exist I will accept that as I accept the rain that started pouring down when I was on my way to the store. I have no afterlife, no karma, no god to beg for forgiveness, no reincarnation, no fear for any hell. It is just end of my life.

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I have a very high opinion of myself, too, but from the looks of it, not as high as yours!

hmm maybe. It is more like that I just like to keep it myself :) , it's not that I would hold myself in any great value.

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Freedom to speak as you want is a complex matter.

Ultimately I come to a conclusion that freedom of expression doesn't exist online. Here we don't talk to people we know well, so it's mostly talking to a vague image in your head that you donned with imaginary characteristics. If I started speaking "as I want" to you, I'm sure I would not be speaking to you personally, or rather I'd be speaking to you even less than I speak to you now. That would be a "free" expression of an attitude for somebody else in past who reminds of your imaginary image, or perhaps even to people in general. But not to you.

Of course the limits of our form of interaction are great. Face to face is always better, so we can cut down unavoidable misunderstandings. :) we are making profiles of each other as you said, and usually we interpret the things that are said or written in a way which fits more to our personal agenda or form we have constructed of each other. We expect something and when the criteria is not met our pictures of each other are shaken and redefined. Leads usually to irritation by the way, since our expectations were pushed aside. We can blame the human mind, because it tries to handle things by anchoring and linking them to our past experiences and incidents.

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If you remember an example of a woman venting anger from another thread, I think that speaking freely would ultimately achieve this very effect. It would call forth new irrelevant feelings totally unrelated to a person who's being talked to. Not that it isn't happening now, but trading one social mask for another makes little sense in my opinion, even if a new one pretends to be more "free".

I do remember. Well, usually free speech is destined to stir up problems, that's why dictators want to ban it :P

My ultimate point is that for me to conversate with you, it is a lot better that if you want to say something, if you are bitten by the urge to express an opinion because something I said : Do it. It leads us forward and we can talk more about the matter :) Also, if we bite our tongues too much we run out of things to discuss. ^^

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I disagree that manipulation is power. Let's use a usual example, you know how people point at a lady who married a rich husband and say that she has power over him? Power to make him buy her cars, houses, etc.

I think it isn't true, there's no real power involved there. Real power would be to take all those things from him without giving anything in return. What the lady used, if she was indeed intent on money and not on a man himself, was social code that enabled her to have expensive gifts in exchange for being tender and good-looking for her rich husband. That can be called wits, but not power, she merely used existing rules and didn't bend them.

Manipulation is much alike, you have to use wits, not power. Isn't that weakness when you have to resort to wits?

I really should come up with some new English word for the thing I mean to avoid raising familiar schematas for people :) I have a Finnish word for it, which in a way is same as word power, but it includes a lot more i.e wits. That is why capability is a good word, it includes every tool you have in your usage to carve your path in this world. But personally, I don't think that for example money is "a real power". Sadly, in this world it is one of the greatest tools to advance and get more what you desire.

Resorting for wits isn't a weakness in any way. I am not talking about mere raw power here, the urge to bash your way through any problem :P. What separates wits from e.g money is that wits is something that is inside you. You are rendered powerless if you don't have the money anymore. If you still have sharp mind and intelligence, you can keep on going. Of course if you have gathered that money with our intelligence and not from lottery, it can be seen to be result of your wits. That is why you have to keep on developing yourself, not resorting to something external. For example, I don't consider a shooting skill with a mechanical weapon like a gun as useful as ability to win your opponent with bare hands or without external weapons.

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After this I need to ask you, what else do you consider power over people, except manipulation? Because we started from comparing power over people to power over DCs, and manipulating people is something that I can't very well compare in my mind to manipulating DCs.

Basically everything you can do to have an effect on their actions. Everything you can do to stop them from thwarting yours. Even charisma is form of power. It is influence over someone, even if the user is unaware of it. If someone adores you from the bottom of his heart, you are already reached your power over him. If someone fears you like hell, you have already grasped him from inside. Almost everything can be basically turned into a way to overpower someone or stop him from trying to restrict you.

I really wanted to put more on the last chapter since I feel like I have expressed only very minor amount of my thoughts there. But I have slept only about ten hours total in this week so I think I will go to sleep :) I am looking forward to more points you bring up, so it is easier for me to answer. Hopefully, my brains work a lot better when I wake up :P
08-11-2009, 07:01 AM
Arutad

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Originally Posted by Unelias

Still many people try to seek a greater meaning and forgot about the life itself. Why would there be anything greater than life, which enables every other action?

What is "life"? How do you enjoy "life"?

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You probably wouldn't want to get bitten by a radioactive spider just because the Spiderman got himself superpowers out of it?

Provided that it's a right kind of superpowers I would :)

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I just enjoy hardship and misery a lot more than others. My whole worldview is based on misery, which is occasionally brighted by joy. This doesn't, however, mean that I would feel myself miserable :) I just get bored easily, I couldn't picture myself having a stable, "normal" life in some senses.

We're the opposite of each other then, all I'm looking for is permanent pleasure and easy ways to achieve it :)

Is your pleasure pride-based? That's the only thing I can think of. If challenge is pleasurable for you, then I picture that pleasure comes from being proud that you've accomplished it. Or is it something else?

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For example, year ago I usually read one to three books a day. I am a really fast reader so I don't have to use much of time for it and still I can get the most fun and usefulness out of it.p

Fast reading must be one of the abovementioned superpowers :)

How many pages per a book? I'm wondering how many pages that was that you could read in one day, I myself am an avid reader. The quantity of pages provided that you slept on that day, too.

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No, it will be most likely the moment I will die.

I don't understand. Will you kill yourself out of despair or will you truly fail only after you die?

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My no-holds-barred trainer once said this : "If you are in the ring and you get your arm broken, you punch him with your another arm. If her brokes that too, you will kick him to the ground. If he brokes your knees, you will bash him unconscious with your forehead." If my legs wouldn't work anymore I can still write, read, play, draw... If my arms get disabled, I can still read and think. That is just the moment dices roll a bad number :)

That's horrible and was almost painful to read. I think I'd commit suicide if such things happened to me, there wouldn't be any point to life. It couldn't be lived in a good way anymore, only in a miserably and irrevocably limited one.

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We expect something and when the criteria is not met our pictures of each other are shaken and redefined. Leads usually to irritation by the way, since our expectations were pushed aside.

In our case we can be shaken hard by each other, or much dissapointed in each other. We aren't acquainted too closely to make coherent images and then have them fail.

Internet is a wonderful invention. :)

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I do remember. Well, usually free speech is destined to stir up problems, that's why dictators want to ban it :P

Too late :) Dictators have a bad image in most countries. Although if some global catastrohe happened and quality of life plummeted down, we'd have much better things to think of than what kind of people rule us.

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My ultimate point is that for me to conversate with you, it is a lot better that if you want to say something, if you are bitten by the urge to express an opinion because something I said : Do it. It leads us forward and we can talk more about the matter :) Also, if we bite our tongues too much we run out of things to discuss. ^^

Are you completely sure that you're always expressing yourself freely?

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Resorting for wits isn't a weakness in any way. I am not talking about mere raw power here, the urge to bash your way through any problem :P.

Maybe you're right. But for me power is something raw and violent. That's because I'm naturally weak as a woman and I am very well aware of it. :) If in your life you always had to use wits in situation that could've easily be solved with raw power, you'd start thinking that wits have nothing to do with power :).

About you I can understand, if you never felt overpowered and having to use wits, than usage of wits was only an addition to power.

Most likely the definition of power is situational. For me wits was objectively a weakness sometimes, in case if problems could be solved otherwise :)

So here, we see how personal experience and nature can influence the definition of words.

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Basically everything you can do to have an effect on their actions. Everything you can do to stop them from thwarting yours.

Even if it's begging and groveling on your knees? Still power? :)

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Even charisma is form of power. It is influence over someone, even if the user is unaware of it.

But that's an illusion, it's a subjective idea. You have your own rules to draw a conclusion that it's a form of power, and another person has his or her own rules :). Sure nowadays there's great awareness of things like the ad tricks that sell you stuff, and almost everybody would consider a one-sided idea of charisma-based power to be a real power. But is that really the case.

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If someone adores you from the bottom of his heart, you are already reached your power over him. If someone fears you like hell, you have already grasped him from inside. Almost everything can be basically turned into a way to overpower someone or stop him from trying to restrict you.

I can't force myself to agree. For one thing, the person may be lying that he adores you, or that he fears you. The first case is wide-spread, especially bosses usually think that some of their workers like them a lot :). In this case the illusion is seen for what it is, although you as a boss might pride yourself on how much power you have over your workers.

So it boils down to the question, is a one-sided idea of power true, or does it require all sides involved to agree on its nature?

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But I have slept only about ten hours total in this week so I think I will go to sleep :)

That's very bad for health, don't do that too often :)
08-13-2009, 05:00 PM
Unelias

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What is "life"? How do you enjoy "life"?

Life is everything you do while alive. Not something you do after you are gone. I personally cannot agree with an idea of life being a gateway to the real life, for example. ( Christianity). People worry too much, they seek great philosophies to rely on, they bond themselves to things that are futile in the end and sacrifice themselves for something that is destined to crumble anyways. All this makes humans very interesting though. :)

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Provided that it's a right kind of superpowers I would

Which would quite accuratetly make you a power-monger, wouldn't it? Assuming you have 99% chance of dying to the radiation without getting any superpowers at all.

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We're the opposite of each other then, all I'm looking for is permanent pleasure and easy ways to achieve it

For me there is no such thing as permanent :) everything with a form will crumble and be destroyed. When it comes to the easy way, that is even less permanent. :) I will be very bored if life is too easy, if it goes in the same old routine and I don't have to do anything hard.

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Is your pleasure pride-based? That's the only thing I can think of. If challenge is pleasurable for you, then I picture that pleasure comes from being proud that you've accomplished it. Or is it something else?

It is probably something else. Pride is usually an emotion that needs other people. People who you can rank lower than you, which leads to the feeling of pride. That you are special or more than others etc. I don't want to be acknowledged, I have no need for respect or pride in that sense. I don't want to leave traces or be written in history. I do have a self-pride though, I will push myself to the limits and try to break the limits every time. So you could say it has something to do with pride. I just don't compare myself to anyone else, but to the earlier, weaker me. Challenge just keeps me awake and interested.

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Fast reading must be one of the abovementioned superpowers
How many pages per a book? I'm wondering how many pages that was that you could read in one day, I myself am an avid reader. The quantity of pages provided that you slept on that day, too.

Hardly a superpower. Just a result of vigorous training. :) How many pages you ask? Well it depends heavily on the type of book. You do understand that reading process with Dostoyevsky ( a strange way to write it in English :P ) and with Stephen King are world's apart :) but if I am reading a standart novel I could say that 1500-1700 pages a day ( in Finnish). By straining and leaving anything but reading aside, I probably could read a lot. I must try sometime :)

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I don't understand. Will you kill yourself out of despair or will you truly fail only after you die?

Will somebody succeed after they die? :) maybe someone does. Suicide in despair something I loathe. It is just the sign that you were too weak to face the life. On the other hand, ritual suicides are quite interesting, since they have different motives behind them.

I ment that if I had a tumor that will be lethal, I will die because of it. Nothing more. Untill my brain stops from working I can still live and continue. :)

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That's horrible and was almost painful to read. I think I'd commit suicide if such things happened to me, there wouldn't be any point to life. It couldn't be lived in a good way anymore, only in a miserably and irrevocably limited one.

I am sorry to awaken such a feelings. It is pretty much reality though, anything can happen anytime. You can be crippled or dead in ten seconds. I have actually thought a lot that it would be very, very interesting if I someday became blind. I have heard blind people can sense enviroment via sounds, very much like a sonic wave. I would like to learn that or see how I can cope with the blindness.

But that statement includes pretty much my attitude towards life. In Finnish language and culture we have a word called sisu. I don't know if you are aware what that means, but there are some words that have a same kind, yet largely separate meaning. Words like guts, perservance, endurance, willpower, spirit, they are all something that a word sisu includes. When you are wrapped in cold winter storm and you have to keep on hacking down those frozen trees to get yourself a wood to the stove, you are using your sisu. I could tell you more of this particular word since it is very unique aspect of Finnish culture. In short, you just got to keep on going even if odds are against you and you are losing.

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Are you completely sure that you're always expressing yourself freely?

Of course not. But that is my pure intention. Usually when I am drunk or in some other drug, I express myself even more freely. But I don't usually think twice if it is appropriate to say something, I just say it. Still politeness is quite good aspect in all areas of life.

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Maybe you're right. But for me power is something raw and violent. That's because I'm naturally weak as a woman and I am very well aware of it. If in your life you always had to use wits in situation that could've easily be solved with raw power, you'd start thinking that wits have nothing to do with power .

That might be true, but for me it is just another tool in the box to get the job done.

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About you I can understand, if you never felt overpowered and having to use wits, than usage of wits was only an addition to power.

I prefer to use wits, no need to use physical force if you can subdue someone with verbal or psychological tools only. Physical force is just a reserve if everything else comes out bad and if I don't have time to react with anything else.

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Most likely the definition of power is situational. For me wits was objectively a weakness sometimes, in case if problems could be solved otherwise

Well if we want to be realistic, everything is situational :P but yes, it's not weakness to get your job done and survive. If there are other ways, you should just analyze them logically which one is most profitable and best for the situation.

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So here, we see how personal experience and nature can influence the definition of words.

Naturally they do. But we are trying to bash down the barrier of language here. :)

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Even if it's begging and groveling on your knees? Still power?

My thoughts about it are the same that a medieval knight would have for the first firearm fighting soldiers. It gets the job done, but it lacks the glory and the requirement for real skill or strength. In the same way as world championship in the ring despises a street brawler who uses dirty tricks to win, yet he is overwhelmed by the fierceness and effectiviness of it. It all comes around into my philosophy to avoid all that is too easy or doesn't require everything you got. You have to work for it, train for it and finally master it.

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But that's an illusion, it's a subjective idea. You have your own rules to draw a conclusion that it's a form of power, and another person has his or her own rules . Sure nowadays there's great awareness of things like the ad tricks that sell you stuff, and almost everybody would consider a one-sided idea of charisma-based power to be a real power. But is that really the case.

People live in illusion mostly. Our modern world is pretty much build on illusions, expectations and doubt. If you have been looking up to someone and respect him, you grasp his manners, his thoughts all the time. You let him affect you, change you. Even if he is not aware. That is all passive of his part, but if he starts actively mindwash you, then it is even more efficent. I'd say that is power if you can use mere words and sign language and your deeds to get someone do what your want.

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I can't force myself to agree. For one thing, the person may be lying that he adores you, or that he fears you. The first case is wide-spread, especially bosses usually think that some of their workers like them a lot . In this case the illusion is seen for what it is, although you as a boss might pride yourself on how much power you have over your workers.

Then the boss is uncapable of perceveing feelings and thus is a bad leader. Of course if you are bound with the illusions you will get the result as you mentioned. But if you know by heart that you are right about it, you have no need to doubt. I don't know that much of adoring, but fear I can smell and feel from others. Fear is hard to fake and you get no benefits of faking it. Once the heart is striken with fear, doubt surfaces. Doubt is the reason why people are so easily resulting to emotion-based, illogical decisions and thus are easy to be controlled. That is why, when in leading position you must be evaluating your underlings and the situation all the time, so you can keep on track about their mind.

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So it boils down to the question, is a one-sided idea of power true, or does it require all sides involved to agree on its nature?

Results matter. It is all the same if the other person fakes his feelings or whatever, if your will is the one that remains and is done.

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That's very bad for health, don't do that too often

Well I had a battle training camp for a week in the woods. Not much sleep during a battle. Might be you never wake up anymore :P
08-14-2009, 01:23 PM
sleepingdog

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arutad

Even if it's begging and groveling on your knees? Still power? :)

that's where it really starts, then you realize the rest was just an illusion made for children. but i suspect this was just the start for you too, so you must know how the road splits in the end.
08-27-2009, 01:51 AM
SKA

Xei I like the way you view and express things. I see the same political games being played out here in The Netherlands. It seems to be worldwide.

My plan is to move out from here, gathering a massive amount of likeminded people and starting over somewhere new. Maybe we could raise a fund, put our money together and buy an island or a piece of land and split the costs equally. If about 100 people are serious about this they together can put together ALOT of money.

Then I was thinking: How to make electricity? Well human waste is perfect for that. In a certain tank with a filter Methane gas can be derrived from it; which is a highly flamable gas. Methane gas engines would have to be used which can run and generate electricity in a generator. And of human waste, and thus Methane, there will allways be enough.
If a simple sewer system was built under the houses so that the toilet of every house would lead all human waste into one big storage tank that filters out methane then this could continuously supply the fuel needed for running the electricity generator.

To make sure we don't have starving or homeless people I have thought of everyone having their own farming land(rice, grains, potatoes, casave, fruits, vegetables..etc) for their personal food supply. Maybe some chickens for eggs and meat, and goats for meat and milk/cheese. There are vertical aerogardens that take up little land-space and yet can produce sufficient food to harvest.
Bringing some people with farming experience & knowledge might be helpfull. Fishing ponds where fish are breeded and fed and eventually caught and eaten. Enough sustainable foodsources.

Also essential is to try and bring some medically knowledgable people with you. Like a Doctor, a Dentist, a surgeon, a Pharmacist, a Nurse, a Shaman healer..etc
And off course all their knowledge should be documented so it can eventually be taught to future generations of dentists, surgeons, pharmacists, shamans, doctors and farmers.

And off course, perhaps most important; a Clean, continuous drinking watersupply. I had this idea, in case of living on an island or near the sea, of a great cylinder shaped building where the seawater could flow into. A transparent, glass dome on top of it would allow sunlight to heat up the seawater inside of it( especially if the interior is painted black).
Then the seawater would vaporise, condense on the inside of the Glass dome and drip back down into a separate container:Drinking water. In the process it leaves all of the salt, and other impurities behind. If this is the way we would supply ourselves with drinking water we would also have an eternal mountain of seasalt. Any excess seasalt, which we would have plenty, could be traded to get money for supplies from other countries like medicines, medical/dental tools, mandatory basic hospital equipment...etc

Surely I don't expect this to be an easy Endeavor. But with enough likeminded people joining forces it becomes possible.
If society is reduced down to this simple form, so individuals are not obsessed with becomming as wealthy as possible, but instead being concerned about being able to survive in a self-providing, sustainable, free and enjoyable way, then such a human community might be alot less likely to be overcome and enslaved by corporate control-maniacs that bring chaos, violence, polarity, slavery and general decay to human communities for their own benefit.

We are slaves to corporates because we are dependant on them for EVERYTHING. Drinking water, food, electricity, Medicine/Healthcare, Housing, Education, Internet..etc All brought to us by corporates. These things are essential for human welbeing and survival. And since they provide this all to us we would be lost without them. And so they make the rules. If we don't do as they please (usually pay lots of money:Bills, Rent, Taxes, Cash)they will cut our electricity, throw us out of our houses, shut down our drinking water, deny us Medicine/Healthcare, deny us education..etc

From where I'm sitting the only way to break free of this dependance-slavery is to buy land and raise up a new country where everyone is taught to be selfproviding in food and essential community services (like Healthcare, Clean Drinking water, Electricity) should be free of costs and garanteed for all.
People should work at the Powerplant, because they appreciate eletricity in their house, not because they want to become materially enriched. Same for Healthcare or someone who works at the water-purification plant.
08-27-2009, 07:31 AM
Unelias

SKA are you completely sure you are posting into the right thread and not to the one that rounds around "Utopia"?

Just thinking :roll:
08-27-2009, 01:08 PM
SKA

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Originally Posted by Unelias

SKA are you completely sure you are posting into the right thread and not to the one that rounds around "Utopia"?

Just thinking :roll:

Well I was thinking of escaping this power obsessed way of life and from my point of view the only way to do it is this "Utopian" project.

Not so Utopian since I do not intend or believe to make life spotless and perfect, but merely more bearable, more free/happy and more secure. We can discuss a problem endlessly, but I myself rather focus on the possible Solutions to a problem.

And please don't call every fantasy about how to improve the quality of life and sustainability of a Human Community a Utopia: This simply shuts you down from the idea that people could improve socially.

My "Utopia" is mostly about freedom; An aspect of Humanity that desperately needs to be improved.
08-27-2009, 02:24 PM
Unelias

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Originally Posted by SKA

And please don't call every fantasy about how to improve the quality of life and sustainability of a Human could Community a Utopia: This simply shuts you down from the idea that people improve socially.

I don't recall calling anyone's fantasy an utopia. I am just thinking rationally. I am still pretty sure you are writing into wrong thread since I cannot find a way how anything you posted makes any relevance to this matter.

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Originally Posted by SKA

My "Utopia" is mostly about freedom; An aspect of Humanity that desperately needs to be improved.

Most people just don't care about real freedom. They live in illusion that they have freedom, but in the end they are caged birds. In order to live in freedom, you must leave many things behind and break all outside restrictions.
08-27-2009, 11:53 PM
Arutad

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Originally Posted by sleepingdog

that's where it really starts, then you realize the rest was just an illusion made for children. but i suspect this was just the start for you too, so you must know how the road splits in the end.

Can you clarify these sentences? I fail to understand what you were talking about. Namely, what was an illusion made for children.
08-28-2009, 12:09 AM
Arutad

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Originally Posted by Unelias

People worry too much, they seek great philosophies to rely on, they bond themselves to things that are futile in the end and sacrifice themselves for something that is destined to crumble anyways.

That's the same as you do with your life philosophy of challenge.

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Which would quite accuratetly make you a power-monger, wouldn't it? Assuming you have 99% chance of dying to the radiation without getting any superpowers at all.

That was an unexpected twist. But I would only do it for a very special kind of power that would considerably level up the quality of my life. So you could say it's about pleasure and not power.

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For me there is no such thing as permanent :) everything with a form will crumble and be destroyed. When it comes to the easy way, that is even less permanent. :) I will be very bored if life is too easy, if it goes in the same old routine and I don't have to do anything hard.

That's only a preference. For me things aren't permanent just as well, I know that eventually either I will die or a severe illness will take me even before that happens. But my choice is to seek out as much pleasure as I can as long as it's possible. Denying pleasure to yourself because of the inevitable loss of it is futile, you can't prevent the loss anyway.

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I just don't compare myself to anyone else, but to the earlier, weaker me.

I think about it as the same as the process of comparison to other people, but in a slightly more hidden form.

You know that the old you is "worse" because you evaluated yourself and that evaluation even separated you into two different people, the "old you" and the "new you". This process of evaluation was done by usage of other people's evaluative opinions. There are no evaluative opinions that are strictly yours, they're developed during interactions with others and you need to refer to past memories for self-evaluation to function.

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How many pages you ask? Well it depends heavily on the type of book. You do understand that reading process with Dostoyevsky ( a strange way to write it in English :P ) and with Stephen King are world's apart :) but if I am reading a standart novel I could say that 1500-1700 pages a day ( in Finnish). By straining and leaving anything but reading aside, I probably could read a lot. I must try sometime :)

That sounds wrong. I came around to think as standard about soft-cover novels 200 pages long, or 450 for a single normal hardcover book. 1500-1700 pages wouldn't even even fit into a single hardcover book, that would have to be three books.

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Suicide in despair something I loathe. It is just the sign that you were too weak to face the life.

A conscious choice to face death is far more difficult than facing life, which you don't have to apply an effort to. Suicide is a deed that needs a lot of courage.

Would you be able to jump from the roof in cold blood? Not paying attention to all your senses panicking and protesting like mad?

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I am sorry to awaken such a feelings. It is pretty much reality though, anything can happen anytime. You can be crippled or dead in ten seconds.

There's no need to be sorry. My reaction to these things is different, but it doesn't mean that it's bad or wrong and you have to feel sorry for making me speak about it.

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Of course not. But that is my pure intention. Usually when I am drunk or in some other drug, I express myself even more freely. But I don't usually think twice if it is appropriate to say something, I just say it.

Why do you think that what you say in this way amounts to a free way of speaking?

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I prefer to use wits, no need to use physical force if you can subdue someone with verbal or psychological tools only. Physical force is just a reserve if everything else comes out bad and if I don't have time to react with anything else.

What an interesting difference that got created by different life styles.

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Of course if you are bound with the illusions you will get the result as you mentioned. But if you know by heart that you are right about it, you have no need to doubt.

How can you know that something is right if it doesn't even exist outside of your mind? I think it's not a matter of arguing that power is a mind-created idea, just like "weather" or "beauty". We already can see that we have different notions about it, it's an idea that can't have a right or wrong meaning.

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Once the heart is striken with fear, doubt surfaces. Doubt is the reason why people are so easily resulting to emotion-based, illogical decisions and thus are easy to be controlled. That is why, when in leading position you must be evaluating your underlings and the situation all the time, so you can keep on track about their mind.

This passage is what I'd call an illusion. These are your subjective thoughts and conclusions that you made from them. For others they might either not exist or be wrong.
08-28-2009, 06:36 AM
Unelias

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Originally Posted by Arutad

That's the same as you do with your life philosophy of challenge

I never denied that. But I am not sacrificing myself for something irrational, like religion or following a way someone points to me. So I am living for myself, for my pleasure, for my own needs. Egoistic, yes, but also somewhat the purest form of existence.

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That was an unexpected twist. But I would only do it for a very special kind of power that would considerably level up the quality of my life. So you could say it's about pleasure and not power.

Then we don't have much difference here. As might noticed, I never said I am not pleasure centered. For me, power is just a mean to get pleasure and also a way to instantly generate pleasure by achieving more power. If life gives you no pleasure, it loses it's meaning completely. Please, do tell : What is something that considerably levels up your life quality? Even if it is something that is a bit unrealistic. I have given up many things, which I consider as worthless and I have gotten much in return. Sometimes I have given less and received more, sometimes vice versa.

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That's only a preference. For me things aren't permanent just as well, I know that eventually either I will die or a severe illness will take me even before that happens. But my choice is to seek out as much pleasure as I can as long as it's possible. Denying pleasure to yourself because of the inevitable loss of it is futile, you can't prevent the loss anyway.

We both agree this, but let me clarify. You know that nothing is permanent, but have you already accepted it? My mindstate is so attuned with chaos and change that I accept things that change as part of life, without resistance or yelling. Majority of people cannot do that. They cannot accept events, which they have no ways of affecting and still they feel quilty or angry. My grandmother died couple weeks ago and I was very fond of her. I didn't cry at the funeral though. Only reason I see as fit for mourning is egoistic tears for me never seeing her again. For me there is no other reason for mourning. But as you said, you want to seek pleasure as long as possible. How does that differ to my choice of continuing life if I am crippled? I can enjoy life in many ways, thanks to my wide range of skills, which I keep on practicing.

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I think about it as the same as the process of comparison to other people, but in a slightly more hidden form.

It is the same process as you said, but by psychological perspective a lot different because the inward nature of it. Humans usually compare themselves a lot more to outer enviroment.

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You know that the old you is "worse" because you evaluated yourself and that evaluation even separated you into two different people, the "old you" and the "new you". This process of evaluation was done by usage of other people's evaluative opinions. There are no evaluative opinions that are strictly yours, they're developed during interactions with others and you need to refer to past memories for self-evaluation to function.

An interesting view. It has only a tiny flaw in it, at least in my case. Let's think of scenario, which is very common to me. I have drawn pictures or paintings for last month and I decide to keep a break for all the things I have learned to sink in. After another month I decide to paint a couple pictures just to see what I come up with. I notice that for example shading is a lot better than in my last month's works. Also, the pictures at whole are a lot better technically. I have evaluated it all alone with nobody else helping me. I'd consider them my opinions, even if I am re-using my memories, since they are my memories about me.

Of course, I doubt anyone can live with zero comparison with other people and neither do I. In cases, where I just cannot improve without comparing myself to others i.e martial arts, I do that.

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That sounds wrong. I came around to think as standard about soft-cover novels 200 pages long, or 450 for a single normal hardcover book. 1500-1700 pages wouldn't even even fit into a single hardcover book, that would have to be three books.

Which I think was the amount of books I said I read in a day before :) Well as example, I read Kundera's Unbearable Lightness of Being in under three hours and I wasn't in particular rush :) In Finnish there are singe books for over 1000 pages easily.

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A conscious choice to face death is far more difficult than facing life, which you don't have to apply an effort to. Suicide is a deed that needs a lot of courage.

A common opinion and the one I disagree. Suicide isn't a feat. You can just take overdose of sleeping pills and that's it. You just need swallow. In life you have to do a lot more. You have to endure and prevail. The other choice is the death, which those who are too weak to endure the life will choose. The easier choice. If one should kill oneself, at least they should apply there some challenge, like traditional Japanese seppuku. It requires you to keep your mettle and not show signs of weakness or pain as you die.

Let's think of some sects of Islam. They say that if you kill yourself in the sake of Holy War, you will get into the paradise instantly. The suicider deeply believes so. He has no fear. Now that is easy. You are slumbered in the thought that someone will save you after you kill yourself, you get to the better place. Now, think of traditional samurai, who has no religion or afterlife. He believes in nothing and still commits a ritual suicide, a very gruesome death, where you rip your own stomach with a dagger, for the sake of his honor or his master. There is a great difference in there. Both commit suicide because of their ideals, but still the deaths do vary. Now take a typical modern man killing himself. Divorce, alcohol problems, low on money, rent unpaid and such. Heavy drinking on the day and decides to pull the trigger in the night, drunk. Where is the courage? He has only problems, he is doing it out of despair. He doesn't want to live, to solve his problems. He fears there is no other outcome, he fears life. For me that is even more pathetic.

"Anyone desperate enough for suicide...should be desperate enough to go to creative extremes to solve problems: elope at midnight, stow away on the boat to New Zealand and start over, do what they always wanted to do but were afraid to try.” -Richard Bach

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Would you be able to jump from the roof in cold blood? Not paying attention to all your senses panicking and protesting like mad?

I wouldn't jump of the roof if I wanted to kill myself. Too easy. Just one step and no going back. Same as the thing I mentioned before. I have trained myself for my whole life not to let my feelings distract me. I have done many things in cold blood and most importantly, I have casted aside fear and replaced it with deep focus. From rational point of view, suicide is actually never answer. It is call of heart. I am rational person as I have said. But if I wanted to kill myself, I'd rip my stomach open. If ancient warriors did it, this modern warrior does not want to be second to them ^^

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Why do you think that what you say in this way amounts to a free way of speaking?

I don't know. Mostly because I cannot understand the subject in English. Or at least I am thinking back here "free speech" means a ability to say whatever you want without fear of punishment? Is that right? If it is, I don't fear to express my opinions, because someone would get mad at me.

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What an interesting difference that got created by different life styles.

Mine is heavily influenced by my security work. Better solve things talking first before giving a knuckle-sandwich. Prolongs your life.

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How can you know that something is right if it doesn't even exist outside of your mind? I think it's not a matter of arguing that power is a mind-created idea, just like "weather" or "beauty". We already can see that we have different notions about it, it's an idea that can't have a right or wrong meaning.

At the moment I don't know if we are talking about same things, since I feel a bit confused. But this far I have known most of the time. Deduction, reading people coupled with good intuition takes you far. People aren't that hard to read when it comes to extreme feelings like fear, despair, doubt, joy, excitement and anger. For example, in the ring, everytime when I have won, I have sensed the moment my opponent wavers and starts to doubt. After that moment the match is practically over in 10 seconds. Every single time. It is just the feeling, the knowledge that when I throw this punch, it WILL hit. It is a peculiar feeling, like no other. That is the kind of moment when I refer I am "right".

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This is passage is what I'd call an illusion. These are your subjective thoughts and conclusions that you made from them. For others they might either not exist or be wrong.

Everything is pretty much subjective. Can we read people thoughts accuratetly? I think not. If they tell us, they can lie or fail to express their feelings accuratetly. So what is more objective then? We are just have to be correct with our hypothesis, then it turns to knowledge. That is the basis of science too. What is your reality in this?
08-30-2009, 06:55 PM
Arutad

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unelias

But I am not sacrificing myself for something irrational, like religion or following a way someone points to me. So I am living for myself, for my pleasure, for my own needs. Egoistic, yes, but also somewhat the purest form of existence.

You started by saying that many people sacrifice their lives to something that will crumble and be destroyed. Then you agreed that your life is in no way better in this respect, but now you add that it's better in another one. I don't understand why you add that. Are you comparing yourself to other people now, a thing that you said you rarely do? :)

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As might noticed, I never said I am not pleasure centered. For me, power is just a mean to get pleasure and also a way to instantly generate pleasure by achieving more power. If life gives you no pleasure, it loses it's meaning completely.

I fail to deduce that from your previous passages. You said that you would like to go blind or become crippled. What kind of pleasure would it give to you, a masochistic one?

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Please, do tell : What is something that considerably levels up your life quality? Even if it is something that is a bit unrealistic. I have given up many things, which I consider as worthless and I have gotten much in return. Sometimes I have given less and received more, sometimes vice versa.

I can't think up a name for this kind of thing. Displeasure comes from your body and feelings, a thing that would considerably reduce it would be an ability to rule over body and feelings. Body should simply stay healthy, feelings are a more complex matter. You should be able to rewarp the whole of your personality in any way you'd like, as it's hard to say beforehand what kind of personality would be better at reducing discomfort from feelings. For this kind of power I could kill or die myself.

You're not being clear about your own preferable powers, however. What is it that you get only in return for giving something up?

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My mindstate is so attuned with chaos and change that I accept things that change as part of life, without resistance or yelling. Majority of people cannot do that. They cannot accept events, which they have no ways of affecting and still they feel quilty or angry. My grandmother died couple weeks ago and I was very fond of her. I didn't cry at the funeral though. Only reason I see as fit for mourning is egoistic tears for me never seeing her again. For me there is no other reason for mourning.

Are you saying that in your opinion once the changes are accepted you'd stop wanting to shed tears out of egoistic feelings of never seeing somebody again? I can't see a big contradiction between the two. When people cry they already know that tears won't bring others back to life, they've accepted their death. But they cry. Maybe from egoistic feelings, but not from an unnaccepted change.

The kind of situation that you describe happens when somebody dies in front of you. Then it's unnaccepted and feelings like guilt and anger can be present.

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But as you said, you want to seek pleasure as long as possible. How does that differ to my choice of continuing life if I am crippled? I can enjoy life in many ways, thanks to my wide range of skills, which I keep on practicing.

It would seem that for you pleasure is equal to making yourself better than you were. In this case it's very different from mine.

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It is the same process as you said, but by psychological perspective a lot different because the inward nature of it. Humans usually compare themselves a lot more to outer enviroment.

The perspective is different, but it's the same process.

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I have drawn pictures or paintings for last month and I decide to keep a break for all the things I have learned to sink in. After another month I decide to paint a couple pictures just to see what I come up with. I notice that for example shading is a lot better than in my last month's works. Also, the pictures at whole are a lot better technically. I have evaluated it all alone with nobody else helping me. I'd consider them my opinions, even if I am re-using my memories, since they are my memories about me.

Of course I wasn't saying that the comparing-to-others process is constant. But it's hard to find instances when it isn't present for sure. For example, why does it matter to you that now you draw better pictures, can you swear that there are no fleeting images in your mind about other people drawing worse than you do now? For myself I find that the feeling that comes from an achievement comes from this deeply hidden comparison. No comparison no feeling. Maybe for you things are different, but as I can only judge psyches of others by my own I'm going to assume that they're not.

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In cases, where I just cannot improve without comparing myself to others i.e martial arts, I do that.

Mostly I wasn't talking about conscious comparison to others. It's easy to see it. The one that is hidden is more difficult to see and especially to be sure that you're seeing it and not making it up.

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Which I think was the amount of books I said I read in a day before :) Well as example, I read Kundera's Unbearable Lightness of Being in under two hours and I wasn't in particular rush :) In Finnish there are singe books for over 1000 pages easily.

I met people who could read a book per day, but not three.

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Suicide isn't a feat. You can just take overdose of sleeping pills and that's it. You just need swallow. In life you have to do a lot more You have to endure and prevail. The other choice is the death, which those who are too weak to endure the life will choose. The easier choice.

What is special about endurance, why does it make people who don't have it weak and inferior to you?

And I feel like facing death is a thing you underestimate even in your own philosophy. It's not something easy to face. Some people would endure anything just to avoid it. I know people who fear it so much that they're unable to talk about it, and others who can but feel apprehensive about doing it.

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If one should kill oneself, at least they should apply there some challenge, like traditional Japanese seppuku. It requires you to keep your mettle and not show signs of weakness or pain as you die.

If you decided to die then what does it matter in what way you do it, with challenge or quickly? I fail to see why it would matter for a next-minute-I'll-be-dead guy to care whether he dies along his life philosophy or not. Next minute it will stop to matter anyway.

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Let's think of some sects of Islam. They say that if you kill yourself in the sake of Holy War, you will get into the paradise instantly. The suicider deeply believes so. He has no fear. Now that is easy. You are slumbered in the thought that someone will save you after you kill yourself, you get to the better place. Now, think of traditional samurai, who has no religion or afterlife. He believes in nothing and still commits a ritual suicide, a very gruesome death, where you rip your own stomach with a dagger, for the sake of his honor or his master. There is a great difference in there. Both commit suicide because of their ideals, but still the deaths do vary. Now take a typical modern man killing himself. Divorce, alcohol problems, low on money, rent unpaid and such. Heavy drinking on the day and decides to pull the trigger in the night, drunk. Where is the courage? He has only problems, he is doing it out of despair. He doesn't want to live, to solve his problems. He fears there is no other outcome, he fears life. For me that is even more pathetic.

Life is more diverse than that. If you judge by a couple of stereotypical examples, create your own motivations for them and then evaluate those made-up motivations, it is unlikely to yield an objective picture of the suicide topic.

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I wouldn't jump of the roof if I wanted to kill myself. Too easy.

You talk like a guy from the TV show who seeks a way to kill himself in a most impressive way :). The question is for whom? For yourself it can't be, as you're going to be dead anyway. Not for others either. I think that it's for your own life philosophy, if you died in a difficult way then while dying you would feel superior to other weaklings who died in easy ways :) I honestly can see no point in it, but it does sound like it.

I don't even believe that you'd still care for your life philosophy if you decided to die. It's incompatible with this kind of choice.

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I have trained myself for my whole life not to let my feelings distract me. I have done many things in cold blood and most importantly, I have casted aside fear and replaced it with deep focus.

Yep so much effort and next minute it ceases to exist. Doesn't it render it meaningless. :)

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Or at least I am thinking back here "free speech" means a ability to say whatever you want without fear of punishment? Is that right? If it is, I don't fear to express my opinions, because someone would get mad at me.

I think that it's right. I just fail to believe that you're speaking in a totally free way. Maybe in as free a way as you can evaluate at the moment, but there's bound to be a lot hidden stuff that you distort without being aware of that.

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At the moment I don't know if we are talking about same things, since I feel a bit confused. But this far I have known most of the time. Deduction, reading people coupled with good intuition takes you far. People aren't that hard to read when it comes to extreme feelings like fear, despair, doubt, joy, excitement and anger. For example, in the ring, everytime when I have won, I have sensed the moment my opponent wavers and starts to doubt. After that moment the match is practically over in 10 seconds. Every single time. It is just the feeling, the knowledge that when I throw this punch, it WILL hit. It is a peculiar feeling, like no other. That is the kind of moment when I refer I am "right".

Hm I was talking about your other conclusions about what people feel and how their psyches work. You wrote a few and called that knowledge and the usage of it you called power, as if that knowledge was necessarily objective and not coming from imagination...

I understand what you mean by making a difference between normal knowledge and intuitive knowledge, however. But it's only "intuitive" as long as you're not very aware of what makes you draw conclusions. There's no saying when it would fail you, too, just like normal knowledge. Mostly this kind of knowledge comes from having subconsciously recognized patterns and signs, and it relies on these patterns and signs being the same. Once somebody does things in a slightly different way, you'll fool yourself completely with this intuitive knowledge.

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So what is more objective then? We are just have to be correct with our hypothesis, then it turns to knowledge. That is the basis of science too. What is your reality in this?

I'm not sure that objectivity exists, do you think it does? Common sense says it should, as we both happen to agree than we can walk and talk, these abilities and many other things in life should be objective.

But I think that most hypotheses in life turn to fake, imaginary knowledge. There are no tools to check them. Even if you've observed something happen all the time, you might've had a bias and evaluated its meaning incorrectly. In this way only observation can be trusted, as long as there are no conclusions drawn about its meaning. :)
08-30-2009, 10:43 PM
SKA

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unelias

I don't recall calling anyone's fantasy an utopia. I am just thinking rationally. I am still pretty sure you are writing into wrong thread since I cannot find a way how anything you posted makes any relevance to this matter.

Most people just don't care about real freedom. They live in illusion that they have freedom, but in the end they are caged birds. In order to live in freedom, you must leave many things behind and break all outside restrictions.

Well I do plan to leave it all behind and build a self providing way of life elsewhere. And by the way relax a bit maybe. No need to be so sharp.

Being self providing, which my breakaway plan mentions, has everything to do with power.
08-31-2009, 01:05 AM
Bizarre Jester

Because it feels good. Some people crave control. Power can come with respect/appreciation. It also gives you the ability to influence, those underneath you. Power can also mean freedom. It's better to be the master then the slave.
08-31-2009, 01:30 AM
DrunkenArse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bizarre Jester

It's better to be the master then the slave.

Maybe, but it's best to be neither.
09-01-2009, 01:51 AM
SKA

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned

Maybe, but it's best to be neither.

amen.
09-01-2009, 02:02 AM
Sornaensis

I once played an Age of Empires 2 Custom Campaign about a king named Unelias. He was born impoverished and was abandoned by his mother during a long war that destroyed much of his homeland. He was rescued by a small military battalion that found him near a broken wagon after many of the villagers had fled the area. He was raised by a rogue captain who taught him to fight, and ended up re-conquering his homeland by burning down several outlying villages and carrying out a genocide of his own people. He then married his cousin, had two deformed children by her, and committed suicide by throwing himself off of a Frigate and being eaten by sharks. this is all, of course, completely off topic, but I thought I should just let you all know :)
09-01-2009, 08:08 AM
Xaqaria

Every single human being desires for power pretty much equally. All that differs is where a particular individual has learned to seek power.
09-01-2009, 09:31 AM
SKA

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Roxxor

I once played an Age of Empires 2 Custom Campaign about a king named Unelias. He was born impoverished and was abandoned by his mother during a long war that destroyed much of his homeland. He was rescued by a small military battalion that found him near a broken wagon after many of the villagers had fled the area. He was raised by a rogue captain who taught him to fight, and ended up re-conquering his homeland by burning down several outlying villages and carrying out a genocide of his own people. He then married his cousin, had two deformed children by her, and committed suicide by throwing himself off of a Frigate and being eaten by sharks. this is all, of course, completely off topic, but I thought I should just let you all know :)

Well good riddance of a man that commited a genocide and destruction against his own people, his brothers and sisters. He got the fate he deserved.

It's called Karma. The ultimate power. Balance.
09-02-2009, 07:50 PM
Arutad

They really casn stuff such details into an Age of Empires 2 custom campaign? Did they make their own movies? :)

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