Terence McKenna and Time-Wave Zero. Prediction of 2012. Open-Minds only.

There are a great many 2012 theories and predictions, and they are all good...

Most of them point to Mayan or Egyptian or Chinese origins of the prophecies
that things change in a major way December 2012...

A great "super-theory" however must be considered...

Terence and Dennis McKenna, two genius brothers who
were mathematicians and ethnobotanists who researched a great many things, wrote a number of books... the book they wrote about 2012 must be considered here...

They took everything people seem to know about 2012, and COMBINED all those historical facts from those ancient civilizations and then created a mathematical formula to express what the Mayan Calender, the Chinese I Ching and other oracles have said all along...

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Timewave Zero, also known as Novelty Theory, is a theory that purports to calculate the ebb and flow of "novelty" in the universe as an inherent quality of time. It is an idea conceived of and discussed at length by psychonaut philosopher Terence McKenna from the early 1970s until his death in the year 2000. The early 20th-century philosopher Alfred North Whitehead had defined this concept as an increase in the universe's intuitively perceived interconnectedness.[1][2]

According to McKenna, when "novelty" is graphed over time, a fractal waveform[clarification needed] known as timewave zero or simply the timewave results. The graph shows at what times, but never at what locations, novelty is supposedly increasing or decreasing over any span of time from a few days to tens of millennia.[3]

McKenna claimed that the basic struggle of the Universe is not one between good and evil but between habit and novelty.

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Here are the two video that explain both a scientific explanation as well as a mythological explanation of his 2012 prediction/vision.

Here is the transcript if you want to read along. Both videos are only about 7 minutes a piece.

http://dreamflesh.com/blog/2006/09/m...l-world-mania/


Part 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLFSz5zCs5o
Part 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVaWPdcLLIM


To sum it up, McKenna says that there there was a cosmic event which split our time-line into two. And in this 2nd timeline, "Immaculate Conception" did not happen.

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Now, because Christ had no children, in the world in which he was absent, it was not a genetic line that was missing, it was an ideological line which never received expression. And consequently, as time passed, first decades, and then centuries, the absence of this particular intellectual influence in the world changed the world radically, in the following way: Greek science did not suffer the suppression that occurred with the conversion of Constantine; the Academies were not closed; the Hermetic knowledge was not repressed. Conversely, the Empire was stronger, and was able to repel the barbarian invasions of the 2nd to the 5th century, and mathematics, which had halted in our world at Diophantus, proceed through his disciple Hypatia to develop a calculus by AD 370. So that the millennium of Christian stasis that occurred in our world did not occur in that world.

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So basically, Christianity slowed us down on an intellectual level, as far as math, science, etc. the second timeline, it's inhabitants are far more technologically advanced than us, thousands of years advanced. And is where UFO's, interdimensional beings, and Tunguska blast may be from. And 2012 is when the cosmic event is supposed to happen again to join the two timelines back into one. Just think of the possibilities. This 2012 also is supposed to mark the end of linear time as we know it, which is also what the mayans said.

I encourage everyone to look into Terence McKenna, this guy was a genius and had some very interesting ideas.

Love Terence McKenna, but his Time Wave Zero theory is too subjective to be taken seriously. Anyone can look at a graph and synch it with things that happened, just takes a wealth of historical knowledge and creativity.

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Originally Posted by grasshoppa

Love Terence McKenna, but his Time Wave Zero theory is too subjective to be taken seriously. Anyone can look at a graph and synch it with things that happened, just takes a wealth of historical knowledge and creativity.

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You do have a logical point. But, I think Terrence Mckenna was onto something huge here. I don't want to go too much into drugs and spirituality because I know most won't be able to understand here.

I hear people say he was just a tripped out hippie who thought too much... or at least that's what it seems like most people seem to think, but if I'm not mistaken, the double helix shape of DNA was first conceptualized by a scientist on hallucinogenic drugs.

I'm just saying imagine the possibilities..if this were true...we enter this new world..and there's an explosion of peace and technology.

I'm not trying to totally shit on the theory. It's been well thought out, and I think he is onto something, the relations with 2012 and the Iching are damn interesting which is why this theory gets any attention in the first place. He said the end point on the graph could symbolize anything. I thought it would be time travel, because I saw a video of that one black guy saying how once you turn the time travel machine you can travel back in time from that date on, but not any farther back. It seemed to fit nicely.

It could be anything, like any vauge idea or philosophy or prediction it arouses interest because you can relate it to anything. This is the flaw of the whole theory, because it is completely subjective.

Well according to the Mayans, 2012 is supposed to mark the end of linear time as we know it. We'll be eternity. If we would be able to time-travel, then there would be no traveling to the future, because eternity is the future, the past, and the present, all in one moment. There is no linear time, so there is no end. So if we were to time-travel, we would only be able to go back. I guess it's kinda hard to imagine eternity because we're used to linear thinking, which is that everything has an end, and everything has a beginning. I imagine it would be like an eternal lucid dream.

This was an interesting quote in a comments section.

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To use McKenna's wonderful analogy even further:

Remember the ship on the edge of the Black Hole that McKenna once talked about?
To the Observer, the ship falls in the Black Hole, there is a flash and it's over.
To the people on the ship, the second the nose falls into the Black Hole, time is stretched and they are "falling" for Eternity.

The same may be applied to 2012. Will you be "on the ship" and encounter Eternity face to face?
Or will you be the clueless observer?

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McKenna sounds EXACTLY like my dentist.

I can't say I believe in Time Wave Zero as fact, but I'm certainly a fan :D To elaborate on the fractal waveform: history is seen as describing a fixed waveform repeating in periods of briefer and briefer duration as it approaches an asymptote in 2012. Each shorter period is seen not as following, but being embedded fractally in the next largest period. For example, the 50-odd years of the computer age does not come after the 600-odd years since the dawn of the Enlightenment, but is instead the last part of it, as the Enlightenment is the last part of the 10000-odd years of agricultural civilization, which is the last part of 100000-odd years of homo sapiens, yada yada mammals, yada multicellular organisms, yada life, yada solar system, yada Milky Way, yada matter...you get the idea.

I wouldn't vouch for the math--how do you objectively assign "novelty" value to events or periods of history? Even if the means by which he derived the waveform are sound, it's unfalsifiable, as any effort to map events to the curve are doomed to confirmation bias. Still, who doesn't have the sense that history is accelerating? Aren't we literally forming denser and denser connections between individuals and ideas around the globe at the same time we are generating more individuals and more ideas? How long can it go on?

My own vision of the singularity is an information crisis in which the sheer volume of data and its hyper-relatedness--expressed in part as a babel of perspectives surrounding every event--reach a critical mass. The density of information and reference surrounding every object/happening creates a virtual hall of mirrors in which truth value cannot be determined and our identities (as individuals, ideologies, states, and a species) cannot persist in their current form. One outcome would be a Childhood's End scenario: the emergence of a global, self-regarding consciousness, not necessarily limited to the human species, taking up residence within the singularity and discovering the view from there. Such an entity, awakened to its own existence, may well look outward and find it has company. Other possibilities would be a 'hard reset' of civilization and human consciousness to a point farther out on the Time Wave (i.e. social collapse), or complete decoherence: species and/or planet death.

These are just speculative musings from a perspective that could see the Time Wave as a possible reality ;)

So Jesus is the direct cause of all wars on earth after that point in history, and single handily ruined our entire future?

He wasn't born in the other time line, so all countries lived in peace and when the expanded further out they got along and studied each others history, instead of trying to control each other?

We explode a great number of nuclear bombs on their planet, and instead of being mad, they decide they want to save us? If they have cities on their planet, then we obviously could of killed millions.

They great peaceful race that never hurt anyone, where everyone gets along, exploded a nuclear bomb on their sacred home world, to see if it will explode over into our world?

UFO's abduct and probe people, and they are really people trying to cross over to study human physiology, when they are identical to us?

The good dreams are helpful hints from them, while all the bad dreams are from us.

Personally, it really doesn't seem to add up to me. Even if you wanted to believe the generally theory, his description of the other 'world' seems highly unlikely. Though I suppose if they were really contacting him, they would put a positive spin on it. So he would have no idea of anything bad that may or may not be there.

In fact if it was true, he is just their little hand puppet. He is repeating anything they say, and has no way to know the truth of it.

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Originally Posted by Taosaur

I can't say I believe in Time Wave Zero as fact, but I'm certainly a fan :D To elaborate on the fractal waveform: history is seen as describing a fixed waveform repeating in periods of briefer and briefer duration as it approaches an asymptote in 2012. Each shorter period is seen not as following, but being embedded fractally in the next largest period. For example, the 50-odd years of the computer age does not come after the 600-odd years since the dawn of the Enlightenment, but is instead the last part of it, as the Enlightenment is the last part of the 10000-odd years of agricultural civilization, which is the last part of 100000-odd years of homo sapiens, yada yada mammals, yada multicellular organisms, yada life, yada solar system, yada Milky Way, yada matter...you get the idea.

I wouldn't vouch for the math--how do you objectively assign "novelty" value to events or periods of history? Even if the means by which he derived the waveform are sound, it's unfalsifiable, as any effort to map events to the curve are doomed to confirmation bias. Still, who doesn't have the sense that history is accelerating? Aren't we literally forming denser and denser connections between individuals and ideas around the globe at the same time we are generating more individuals and more ideas? How long can it go on?

My own vision of the singularity is an information crisis in which the sheer volume of data and its hyper-relatedness--expressed in part as a babel of perspectives surrounding every event--reach a critical mass. The density of information and reference surrounding every object/happening creates a virtual hall of mirrors in which truth value cannot be determined and our identities (as individuals, ideologies, states, and a species) cannot persist in their current form. One outcome would be a Childhood's End scenario: the emergence of a global, self-regarding consciousness, not necessarily limited to the human species, taking up residence within the singularity and discovering the view from there. Such an entity, awakened to its own existence, may well look outward and find it has company. Other possibilities would be a 'hard reset' of civilization and human consciousness to a point farther out on the Time Wave (i.e. social collapse), or complete decoherence: species and/or planet death.

These are just speculative musings from a perspective that could see the Time Wave as a possible reality ;)

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This is what makes Time Wave Zero such a cool theory despite it's faults. It ties in with everything...Accelerating time, 2012, Iching...It's like the ultimate synchronicity.

Alric, AFAIK, the whole alternate-no-Jesus-universe is more of a side-musing. In fact, I've read, watched and listened to hours of McKenna and never encountered it until now. It seems to be from a much later date than the Time Wave writings, and have little in common besides a vague reference to 2012. As a comic book, I'd buy it, but as a theory of reality--not so much.

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Originally Posted by Alric

So Jesus is the direct cause of all wars on earth after that point in history, and single handily ruined our entire future?

He wasn't born in the other time line, so all countries lived in peace and when the expanded further out they got along and studied each others history, instead of trying to control each other?

We explode a great number of nuclear bombs on their planet, and instead of being mad, they decide they want to save us? If they have cities on their planet, then we obviously could of killed millions.

They great peaceful race that never hurt anyone, where everyone gets along, exploded a nuclear bomb on their sacred home world, to see if it will explode over into our world?

UFO's abduct and probe people, and they are really people trying to cross over to study human physiology, when they are identical to us?

The good dreams are helpful hints from them, while all the bad dreams are from us.

Personally, it really doesn't seem to add up to me. Even if you wanted to believe the generally theory, his description of the other 'world' seems highly unlikely. Though I suppose if they were really contacting him, they would put a positive spin on it. So he would have no idea of anything bad that may or may not be there.

In fact if it was true, he is just their little hand puppet. He is repeating anything they say, and has no way to know the truth of it.

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Jesus was not the direct cause of it....Ideology was the cause. And since they are thousands of years ahead of us in technology, than they must be more evolved than us spiritually. He also clearly said that the atomic bomb they set off was an experiment to "confirm" that the explosion leaked into this timeline. It may SEEM "highly unlikely" to you, because it's so unbelievable, but anything is possible.

I want to point out, not only does this resonate a lot with what the prophecies and oracles have said, but also what David Wilock has been saying. And the coming "Heaven on Earth" in the bible.

We still seem to think all the "space monsters want to destroy us", this isn't the case.....they are most want to help us with our spirituality. I think our only enemy is ourselves.

So they are thousands of years ahead of us, yet they did not discover nuclear fusion until a few hundred years ago? They actually invented interstellar space crafts before they knew about nuclear fusion and fission? And I suppose they figured out a better fuel source, which is why they never used nuclear power, until just recently.

So for all their fancy interdenominational and space travel, the people in this world is actually more advanced in some ways, than they are? When we made the first nuclear bomb and exploded it in their dimension, they couldn't even comprehend what a nuclear bomb was.

Something about that time line sounds funky to me.

The Mayans were superstitious dumbasses. Why does everybody go on about the Mayans? And no, I'm pretty sure they didn't predict the end of time, how would we even know that?

Novelty Theory is pseudoscientific nonsense.

And I won't let you tell me otherwise until you explain precisely what a 'fractal waveform' is.

Or perhaps on what basis was the date chosen with regards to the data and the mathematical processes.

Xei, how can you call it nonsense if you don't even understand it lol...you know you really have an oversized ego.

:l

I don't understand it?

You're the one who just completely failed to explain it to me. You didn't even try. Hence, as I explained above, I can only assume that you have no idea what you are on about.

I'll ask again:

What is a fractal waveform?

Based on what data and what mathematical theory was the date based?

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Originally Posted by Xei

The Mayans were superstitious dumbasses. Why does everybody go on about the Mayans? And no, I'm pretty sure they didn't predict the end of time, how would we even know that?

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Well, your reason is unassailable. Given this flawless rhetoric, no contest is necessary.

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Originally Posted by Xei

Novelty Theory is pseudoscientific nonsense.

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Pseudoscientific? Without doubt. Nonsense? Not remotely. It's a profoundly effective metaphor precisely because of its mathematical and scientific trappings.

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Originally Posted by Xei

And I won't let you tell me otherwise until you explain precisely what a 'fractal waveform' is.

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I clarified the term in my first post in this thread, but I'll reiterate with generalities: it is data repeating a predictable pattern not in sequence, but such that each shorter period is embedded within the previous iteration, so that if you zoom in on the final portion of any given wave, you will see the whole pattern repeated, ad infinitum.

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Originally Posted by Xei

Or perhaps on what basis was the date chosen with regards to the data and the mathematical processes.

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Here I agree that the mathematics were likely made to fit the prediction rather than the prediction derived from the math. The date was most likely an intuitive 'best fit' between the observed historic resonances, the prognosticators' interests and field of study, and roughly the end of Dennis McKenna's own natural lifespan (yet to be determined).

What you're contesting as 'proofs' were never other than explorations arrived at through a revelatory process, couched in the language of our times--always incomplete and partly inchoate, with little relation to the merely empirical disciplines they mimic.

It's not real, 2012 will NOT be the end of the world! On 01/01/13 I'll be laughing, and I'll be on here making a thread calling out everyone who thought otherwise, and making them apologize for fear mongering! No offence to any of you now, but seriously... get real! You argue your case just as well as Sasquatch people do... you convince the UNINFORMED AND WANTING! Only people who are mindless robots, or religious(any difference? HA) will take any of this with a grain of salt! Besides, where do you get off claiming the end of the world? If you're so sure, go out and do something about it... get off the computer and learn an instrument... go and right all your wrongs... or if your not a religious person, go nuts and do whatever you want! Seriously... grow up people.

"But we have proof, math and science and scholars :lol:" No you don't, it doesn't take a few people on the internet to find out the world's gonna end... if it were obvious enough to people that spend even a 'minimal' amount of time learning about this stuff... than an authority on the subject would've came up and said something by now!

But wait... maybe the government has managed to convince every knowledgable person in the world to keep their mouth shut! Not likely... besides, many of the greatest minds in the world aren't even under the authority of the american/canadian govn't. And even if they are, the scenario can only go one way "We'll kill your family if you say anything"... "but they'll all die in '12 anyways... I've got nothing to lose" etc

If there were any substance what-so-ever to this theory... than something will have been said!

You're all silly!

edit: ALSO!! How come the 'ancients' new something we don't? Somehow, whit our great accumulation of knowledge, resources, and technologies, we still can't find out what was apparently 'so clear' to the mayan/chinese/klingon blah bah blah... Answer that please!

Also, I'm not some mindless skeptic... I've done my fair share of research over the last year or so on the subject... and though is SEEMS convincing, I'm not convinced!

I love Terence McKenna. I really do. He is one of my favorite science fiction writers.

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Originally Posted by mindwanderer

If there were any substance what-so-ever to this theory... than something will have been said!

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I think that this whole time-wave zero thing is a ridiculous as the next rational person but you might want to be careful with the "If this was true, we'd know it already" form of argument.


What I want to know is how the "two universes" get reconciled with the Many Worlds Interpretation of quantum physics where all the possibilities have been in quantum superposition all along anyway. That's a little more than two worlds, no?

What I was wondering was how do you put the two worlds together, with out causing catastrophic destruction in both worlds? I mean the entire point is both worlds are totally different. There is no way they can share the same space at once. If they are in two dimensions, they will always remain that way.

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Originally Posted by mindwanderer

It's not real, 2012 will NOT be the end of the world! On 01/01/13 I'll be laughing, and I'll be on here making a thread calling out everyone who thought otherwise, and making them apologize for fear mongering! No offence to any of you now, but seriously... get real! You argue your case just as well as Sasquatch people do... you convince the UNINFORMED AND WANTING! Only people who are mindless robots, or religious(any difference? HA) will take any of this with a grain of salt! Besides, where do you get off claiming the end of the world? If you're so sure, go out and do something about it... get off the computer and learn an instrument... go and right all your wrongs... or if your not a religious person, go nuts and do whatever you want! Seriously... grow up people.

"But we have proof, math and science and scholars :lol:" No you don't, it doesn't take a few people on the internet to find out the world's gonna end... if it were obvious enough to people that spend even a 'minimal' amount of time learning about this stuff... than an authority on the subject would've came up and said something by now!

But wait... maybe the government has managed to convince every knowledgable person in the world to keep their mouth shut! Not likely... besides, many of the greatest minds in the world aren't even under the authority of the american/canadian govn't. And even if they are, the scenario can only go one way "We'll kill your family if you say anything"... "but they'll all die in '12 anyways... I've got nothing to lose" etc

If there were any substance what-so-ever to this theory... than something will have been said!

You're all silly!

edit: ALSO!! How come the 'ancients' new something we don't? Somehow, whit our great accumulation of knowledge, resources, and technologies, we still can't find out what was apparently 'so clear' to the mayan/chinese/klingon blah bah blah... Answer that please!

Also, I'm not some mindless skeptic... I've done my fair share of research over the last year or so on the subject... and though is SEEMS convincing, I'm not convinced!

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Anybody who has actually studied the M's Calendar would know it does not say the end of the world is near, the people who said it will be the end of the world is religious people, and nut jobs. The only reason why everyone says it is the end of the world is because this is how people react to stuff, always the worst case scenerio. The world is full of uneducated overwhelming ignorance. Why? because it's much easier to not look at what something says and make up your own bullshit then to take the time to study something. People are a bunch of lazy asses is what it comes down to.

I seriously doubt anyone who comes to this board even believes the end of the world will happen in 2012.

eh....

I understand the idea that under the rule of the Catholic Church other ideologies were suppressed

but to say that the world would have become a magically peaceful place had the Catholic Church never rose to power? that's stretching it. I can forgive McKenna however because the true history of christianity has been supressed for a long time.

but you guys don't have that excuse.

the problem isn't christianity.........

once upon a time, christianity was very diverse. there was no central church. there was no central hierarchy. with no powerful central church to tell you right from wrong, there was freedom in how one can intrepret the holy texts. you didn't like what this christian group was saying, that's okay, there were many others you could try

the free-thinking of some of these christians knew no bounds

they declared there wasn't even a real need for a priest. because in their belief, no one stands before you and Christ.

these christians were very spiritual. they were free-thinkers and believed no one can just regergitate the truth for you, you must discover it for yourself. they interacted with other religions, even eastern religions.

these early christians made a bold declaration, that God was within them. And within everyone!! And since everyone was an expression of God, it became evident that you must love everyone. they were 'western buddhists'.

in their eyes, they were true Christians. and believing that God is within everyone is what they believed Jesus taught them.

can you imagine how different the world would be if that stream of Christianity became the norm? How can you point a finger at a man and condemn him to hell, if you honestly believe he is an expression of God? You can't.

what went wrong in history?

what went wrong had NOTHING to do with religion

It was the age old story of a handful of men wanting to dominate and control others. How do you control a group of people who believe they are one with God? Who do not look to a government or a central church for answers?

You can't.

You can't control them because their spirituality makes them free independent thinkers

So what happened in history? What had to happen for these few men to gain control of the masses?

1. get rid of the free thinkers. They were declared heretics. And they were slaughtered. Most of their holy texts *their half of the holy bible* were destroyed. And history almost forgotten them.

2. get rid of all these varied intrepratations. And replace them with only one intrepretation, by picking and choosing what to include in the Holy Bible. Leaving entire gospels out if they call to question the intrepretation you have decided upon

3. destroy-crush and silence the genuine christian belief that God is within you. Replace this with God is in the sky. Looking down at you. Judging you. Distant from you. A God you should FEAR. And God who has condemned you to HELL.................unless you are apart of this church. Unless you obey with the standard of this church

4. instill that people are SINNERS. That is what they are....sin incarnate. Not beautiful expressions of God..but siiiiinnnn

5. Now that they are worthless powerless sinners, they can not come to God directly, for they are not worthy of God. Now they are not worthy of God, they need a priest to stand between them and God.

6. now that they need a priest to save their condemned souls from hell, they need a 'physical' church to attend.

7. to in sure that all churches are also under control, priests are no longer self-proclaimed spiritual teachers. but must comply to a formatted system with a specific code of conduct and power roles. a system that is a part of a hierarchy.

8. a hierarchy of priests that lead to one man. the pope

9. a pope who is so powerful, it is said he is the ONLY MAN on earth who can speak for Christ.

10. if you are NOT with this Church, THE ONLY TRUE CHURCH OF CHRIST, and if you refuse to acknowledge his holiness the Pope, then you are with the DEVIL. you use fear of hell to discourage people from questioning your Church.

We went from early Christians professing that God is within EVERYONE.

To: Only the Pope is the representative of Christ on earth.

What happened in history happened................because of the desire to control

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Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

Anybody who has actually studied the M's Calendar would know it does not say the end of the world is near

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The Mayan calendar ends on that date.

End of calendar =/= end of world.

I'm pretty sure about this one.

I dont want to sound like the dunce here(and I feel like one) but I find this REALLY confusing. Can someone put it in a nutshell?