Thread: United states laws tie in with religion?

That is more of a cultural reason than a religious one. Minorities are always discriminated against. I am not saying religion can't be use as an arguement, since anything that will put the person in a bad light can be used as a weapon against them, but that it is not the root cause.

Lets say no one in the country was religious at all. There was no religion at all. For a hundred years only a man and a woman would get married. Suddenly gay people wanted to get married. Do you think people would be for it? Chances are they would still oppose it, for going against what they see as normal.

You just need to look at other things. Like banning woman or blacks from voting. It wasn't religion holding them back, it was people going against current trends, tradiation and the culture.

When most people follow a religion, it obviously plays a part in the culture and trends of a people living in that community. Though that hardly means the laws are religious in nature.

Originally Posted by Alric

That ... nature.

I understand what you're saying Alric, all I'm trying to say is that without religion opposition would fade at a much faster pace than it does today because people would realize "I actually have no good argument against this other than the fact that I'm a jerk," and then they wouldn't be able to hold opposition for as long as they do when they have that wonderful excuse of "someone who is very wise says it is bad, but you can't ever talk or see him so you'll have to take my word for it." And, fewer people would be opposed to homosexuality because of stupid religions. In your scenario it makes it out as if homosexuality is just naturally something that without religions wouldn't be tolerated for 100's of years when in actuality until the spread of religions like Christianity homosexuality wasn't looked down upon.

They would just make up some other excuse. Like how we should hate mulisms because their all terrorists, young black men because their thugs, mexcians because they are stealing our jobs, french because their cowards, jews because they are corrupt businessmen, irishmen because their drunk bums, christians because their closed minded, americans because their ignorant, republicans because their greedy rich people, democrates because their socialist, people who use the computer to much are nerds, people who play sorts to much are brainless jocks, you own a gun your an ignorent redneck, blah blah blah.

Since when have you ever needed a religious reason to be an asshole? Sex has always been a big topic all through human history. There are all sort of trends going back and forth. I am positive without religion, there would still be issues with something, as people would be expressing their opinions.

You don't need a religious reason to be an asshole. And without religion there would still be issues related to plain old garden-variety bigotry, of that you are definately correct.

I only pointed out the issue of states banning gay marriage, because this is one issue in which the vast majority of those against gay marriage just so happen to be those using religion as a huge part of [if not the entire] basis for their argument.

That's why I didn't point out the abortion debate...because there is a variety of both theists and non-theists on both sides of this question.

But I'm afraid the gay marriage issue just is not as diverse in this way.

The United States doesn't tie with religion in the way you think. When states ban gay marriage it's because democracy is at work. What you can not do however is separate democracy from religion, because people have a right to be a part of what ever religion they so desire. Does it mean that the majority can be a part of one religion, and influence democracy? Yes.

But the point is, these laws still reflect the democratic process, for better or for worse.

When it comes to homosexuality, the best you can do is educate people that it is wrong from them to make policy based on their own religious beliefs, because this is a country that is meant to respect all religious beliefs and not everyone views homosexuality as a sin.

Does this work? Yes it does.

My sister is against homosexual marriage for religious reasons. She however feels its wrong to impose her religious views on others through law. And feels homosexuals have a right to marry regardless of her views. It's not impossible. What we need is open communication.

Right now there are christians that feel this means that churches have to marry gays. It needs to be made clear that churches are separate from state and are under no obligation to marry who they deem is not worth marrying

The only religious views that are fundamentally a part of the US government that we can never separate from it is Deism. Thanks to Deism, we have natural rights that no man or god can take away from us.

Originally Posted by juroara

But the point is, these laws still reflect the democratic process, for better or for worse.

This is 100% correct, and moreover it's rather important to keep in mind.

I guess I was just approaching the gay marriage topic in the broader sense that the reasons given by those against it are almost always based on religion. Since said voters and laws reside in the U.S., they fall under what I interpreted as the purpose of the OP.

As you said though, that's not to deny or overshadow the fact that those against it are indeed part of a valid political process.

I guess that's what irks me the most about things like this though. It's really hard for me to explain accurately without sounding overly judgemental. So I guess I'll just leave it at that.

But, I'm really glad you pointed that out though, as it's definately not something to be overlooked.

Recently a poll was made and 45% of the poll for their main reason against homosexuality was based on the fact that "Marriage is a sacred institution and homosexuality is a sin."

That was their listed "main reason," the % who include this as a reason was probably much larger among that poll group.

You're right that you don't need religion for certain types of bigotry, but to hold as strong of a front as they have against homosexuals requires a large polarizing reason. Each one of those subordinate groups that you listed has a longstanding history of why feelings toward them were polarized, I could go on and on for a few of the things listed.

In the case of homosexuality in the U.S. the polarizing force comes from religion.



And to Juroara and ace, I may be wrong, but I remember learning in history class in High School/middle school that the constitution exists to protect rights of minorities against majorities. At the very least it shouldn't be allowed for basic civil rights to be taken away or precluded by simple "majority rules."

[edit: Went to look up such a thing. This video actually seems to talk about exactly what I was saying in my last paragraph]